RULES - Primarch and Legion

[Grifftofer]

I need to apologise. I have managed to misrepresent Pionus's defenses slightly. This is due to me failing to read Raktra's rules properly and thinking he had Instant Death instead of outright ignoring FNP. As such Raktra rather than Angron is best able to hurt Pionus with his current rules.

 

However I still feel that my other points stand and am glad you are taking them under consideration Slips.

[Slips]

Being an aspiring Game Designer, I gotta learn to take any balance comments/critique/remarks under consideration even if I might feel theyre unwarranted (which these aren't). Part of the job and all that :p

 

That Said, I'm starting to feel like Pionus might be the best candidate for "Perpetual Primarch" in our universe mostly due to his rule set.

 

As an aisde, would you mind testing some of our primarchs vs Vulkan/Mortarion and possibly Ferrus? The former two mostly due to them being able to re-roll all IWND and being T7/W7

Edited September 6, 2015 by Slipstreams

[Sigismund229]

I've tested Hectarion and Raktra versus Mortarion and Ferrus. The win ratio was slightly in favour of Raktra and Hectarion, which is reasonable as they're both more expensive.

[Raktra]

Meant to ask this way back, how does everyone feel about the new version of Grind, should I keep it or go back to the re-roll?

[Slips]

Lowered Initiative down to 6.

 

Preliminary modifications to the Ultima Narthecium Array (AKA The Thing That Makes Him Not Die)

 

+ All units within 10" of Pionus Santor with the LA(SH) Special Rule may Re-roll any failed Feel No Pain rolls they are called to make and may make Feel No Pain rolls against wounds with the Instant Death Special Rule and a Strength Value of 8 or lower only. Feel No Pain Rolls taken against Weapons with the Instant Death Special Rule may not be re-rolled.

 

+ Additionally, any Depthstrider Unit joined by Pionus gains the Eternal Warrior Special Rule.

 

+ Confers the Feel No Pain (4+) Special Rule to Pionus Santor and any unit he joins. Pionus Santor may never re-roll Feel No Pain rolls under the effects of the Ultima Nathecium Array.

 

+The Ultima Narthecium Array also permits Pionus to re-roll failed It Will Not Die! Rolls Twice Per Game.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Slipstreams

[simison]

Being an aspiring Game Designer, I gotta learn to take any balance comments/critique/remarks under consideration even if I might feel theyre unwarranted (which these aren't). Part of the job and all that

 

 

This is something I've also struggled with a lot when I made the Wardens/Alex. 

[Grifftofer]

Griff, I'll have some refreshed rules for Morro later tonight for you.

 

Just wondering if you've finished with this? And if you mind if I take a look?

 

 

Also does anyone know what Icarion's final rules ended up as? I looked through Athrawes's thread and found the starting point, but there was about 2 pages of discussion about changes and I'm not sure how he looked like by the end of it all.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Just give him 10 everywhere and his points 3k, then it fits for the demon version^^

[Raktra]

We should have a Daemon Primarch thread, they're gonna be tough to make.

[MikhalLeNoir]

We should have a Daemon Primarch thread, they're gonna be tough

 

tough is the right word^^

[Grifftofer]

Thought I'd give you guys a look at the fruits of my labour up until this point. The below document is the most useful bits of my work to try and figure out the balance between Primarchs in combat, condensed into a single page of an Excel sheet.

 

It shows the average number of wounds each Primarch will inflict on a selected opponent based upon their stats and whatever special rules they have. Certain rules are simple on/pff effects others are dependent on dice rolls and thus have a % value associated with them. Eg Murderous Strike has a 17% chance of giving Instant Death. With this I hope to be able to get a better idea of balance between ours and the original Primarchs, which will be more accurate than eyeballing it and quicker than doing the maths every time. As you can see I have a number of special rules here, but it is still a WIP. So I need to figure out how the maths will work out for some of the trickier unique special rules or other annoying universal rules (Damn you Blind!).

 

Even so I hope you guys like it and feel free to play around with it, you may even find it useful . It should enable you to quickly change stats or special rules to see the difference it would make to your chosen character's survivability. Anyway enough talking, here's the link:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onq3ip0ogel3hlo/The%20Proving%20Grounds.xlsx?dl=0

[Praefectus Invictus]

Cool! Certainly a lot quicker than rolling all those dice, and easier to do on the fly

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hi Griff, apologies for not getting this in earlier. I am currently typing this on a phone (train journeys, whoo, no internet? Booo), so there may be some spelling errors.

 

Sorrowsworn Morro (500pts)

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

8 5 7 8 8 7 4 10 3+

 

Unit Size: 1

Unit Type: Infantry (Character)

 

Equipment;

- The Deeping Plate

- Agonizer Tendrils

- Rad and Plasma Grenades

- Searchlight

 

Special Rules;

- Primarch

- Impure Prince

- Sire of the Drowned

- Krakengrasp

- Furious Charge

- Extremely Bulky

 

Impure Prince; Unlike other Primarchs, Morro is not an Independent Character or a Master of the Legion, neither may he be joined by any other model. If Morro is chosen, the Drowned's allies rating to 'By the order..." for any Legion, and is always considered to be an enemy unit when targeted by psychic powers (of either side).

 

Morro has an improved statline, included above, and when making a roll for the It Will Not Die special rule, he makes a single roll per wound currently missing from his profile, with each passed test regaining a single wound.

 

Sire of the Drowned; Morro has the Move Through Cover and Many-limbed Horror special rules. In addition, while Morro is on the battlefield, he and all friendly Characters with the Legiones Astartes (The Drowned) special rule have the Hit and Run special rule if they outnumber enemy units.

 

In addition, Morro may select any vehicle with a transport capacity (capable of transporting models in Terminator Armour) as a Dedicated Transport. This vehicle is never crewed by Astartes, and gains the Machine Spirit rule unless it already has it. No other unit may use this transport.

 

Krakengrasp; Morro must always accept any challenge he is eligible to accept (although he does not need to issue them). If Morro does issue a challenge, only those models in base contact with himself may accept if they are eligible. If none accept his challenge (and there were modeps eligible to accept), then do not choose a model to not attack that phase and instead, the models in base contact with Morro must pass an unmodified Strength test to make any attacks that turn.if no models were eligible to accept, then this does not take place.

 

When fighting in a challenge, outside forces must reroll successful rolls to hit against Morro. Outside forces with rerolls on failed to hit are cancelled out, and no reroll (for success or failure) is made. In addition, during a challenge, Morro may attempt to grapple a weapon out of the opponents hand. Morro must select a weapon at the start of the challenge; if the opponent uses this weapon to attack with, they reduce the number of attacks made with this weapon by D3 to a minimum of 1. Against a model with Weapon Mastery (or a similar rule allowing a model to fight with two different melee weapons during the same phase), then the models attacks are reduced by D3 to a minimum of 1.

 

The Deeping Plate; This suit of armour provides Morro with a 3+ Armour Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save. It lets him automatically pass Characteristic Tests caused by Graviton Pulse, and is considered to have a 6+ Armour Save when working out the 'to wound' value of Graviton weapons.

 

Agonizer Tendrils;

Range; - / Str; As User / AP: 2 / Melee, Fleshbane, Flurry, Wracking Torment

 

Flurry; When outnumbered in an assault, this weapon grants the user +D6 attacks. This has no effect while Morro is in a challenge.

 

Wracking Torment; if a unit ever suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon with this rule, mark it with a token or coin to show it. In the following psychic phase (friend or foe), roll a d6 against the Hallucination chart in the telepathy psychic powers appendix and apply this result to the unit. This lasts until the start of the next psychic phase, in which case their may be another token to roll against.

 

Legiones Astartes (The Drowned)

; Legiones Astartes

; Many Limbed Horror; units made entirely of models with this special rule do not suffer a disordered charge when assaulting multiple eny units. Please note that other causes of a disordered charge effect as normal. When outnumbered in an assault, such units gain the Stubborn special rule.

; Move Through Cover; all LA(TD) gain this special rule.

 

As I see it, he averages 8-9 attacks on the charge (same as Angron, but no Armourbane), but only 5 if in a challenge. His combinatoon of rad nades and furious charge means he can instantly kill T5 2Wound or FNP units on the charge.

 

While he is good and resilient in a challenge, unlike Angron, a unit of Chosen Warriors is a serious roadblock, eapecially if with an Invulnerable Save. His 3+ Save leaves him open to S5 Power Swords, despite the T8 making Bolters and normal Swords meaningless.

 

He is ki d of resilient; 8 T8 wounds, but woth only a 5++ versus high level shooting, a unit of things like a Cataphracti Terminaor Command Squad can indefinitely hold him due to challenge lock. Meanwhile, he can possibly force outside forces to hit on a 5+ with a reroll, but a combined one two punch of a Command Squad and a Thunderhammer equipped squad can knock him down a few pegs, with only the IWND spexial rule.

[Grifftofer]

Honestly I much prefer this set of rules for him, he looks mean, but not unkillable. Will make the adjustments to my notes when I get home. Thanks Hesh

[Chief Captain Redd]

That's a fantastic spread sheet Griff! And Hesh, I really like what you've done for Morrow. I don't really have any suggestions, but knowing Morrow is in the same boat size wise as Daer'dd I did the math for Daer'dds scale and he comes out at just under 3 inches in height, just so you have an idea on model size for Morrow when you go to build him.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Hey Griff, After a Lot of playtesting where Gwal lost every Battle, Even to Sigismund, so he got some more modifiers and and better inv. Save so he has some defense against thunderhammers. Actually Alexos playtesting him and now he is at least decent and won a few times.

 

Hör do o use the sheet? Dös ist work with Open office?

 

Legion: The Wardens of Light

Primarch: Gwalchavad

Home world: Caerbannog

Recruitment worlds: Caerbannog Sub System & Terra

Flagship: Peacebringer

Fighting Style: Heavy Weapons Attillery and Fast Close Combat

Special Traits: Pariah

Special Units: lùth de òganach, [falamh 's gun èifeachd] coimheadair, sraonadh doininn

 

 

GWALCHAVAD 480 POINTS

THE BLANK, THE AVATAR OF LIGHT

 

 

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

Gwalchavad 7 5 6 6 6 5 6 10 2+

 

Unit Composition

• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type

• Jump Infantry (Character)

Wargear

• Mask "mwgwd ddi-rym"
• Tonfas/Ellbowblades "Grandfather" & "Peacekeeper"
• Armor of Light "trealamh gréine"
• Hidden Blade
• Jump Pack
• Frag grenades

Special Rules

• Primarch (Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, It Will Not Die, Master of the Legion)
• Sire of the Wardens of Light
• Wisdom of Ages
• Very Bulky
• Battle Meditation "The Eight Gates" (Na hOcht Gàidhlig )
• Battle Meditation "Whirlwind from Beyond"(cuaifeach ó thar)
• Battle Meditation "Dance of Death" (rince na marbh)
• "Speed of Light"

SPECIAL RULES

Sire of the Wardens of Light

• All models with the Legion Astartes: Wardens of Light (LA:WoL) special rule gain +1 Ld (to a maximum of 10).
• Any unit with the LA:WoL special rule gain +1 to their Combat resolution results as long as they are within line of sight of Gwalchavad.

Wisdom of Ages

Gwalchavad always allows his foes to strike first, in order to better judge their fighting ability and see their true intent.

 

Gwalchavad gains +1 I per Round. This effect starts in Round 3. And cannot increase over a max of I 9 in Round 6.

So he has in round 1,2 I5->Round 3 : I6->Round 4: I7 ->in Round 5 I 8 and finally in Round 6 I 9.

 

 

Battle Meditation "The Eight Gates" (Na hOcht Gàidhlig)

If Gwalchavad is severely hurt, he performs the Battle Meditation "Eight Gates Form" (Na hOcht Gàidhlig). He focus entirely on the battle and releases the hidden powers which sleep deep within.

 

Gwalchavad gains additional Statbonusses for every 2 Wounds he receives. So if he gets down to 4 Wounds he gets WS + 1 and if he drops down to 2 Wounds he gets WS + 2 and S +1 If he heals a wound and rises above 2 Or 4 Wounds, then his Stats are reduced in line to his remaining wounds.

 

Battle Meditation :„ cuaifeach ó thar (Whirlwind from Beyond)“:

Instead of making normal attacks, Gwalchavad can instead choose to whirl himself around in spinning dance of death. If he does so, Gwalchavad inflincts a single automatic hit on all enemy models in base contact. Declare whether or not if Gwalchavad will perform a „Whirlwind from beyond“ before any blows are struck.

 

Battle Meditation „rince na marbh ("dance of death")“:

Although he hates violence, Gwalchavad is an amazing fighter, trained for centuries in the art of close combat. If Gwalcahvad finds a hole in the defense of an enemy and wounds him, he instantly unleashes follow-up attacks and try to overwhelm his adversary with a barrage of attacks.

For every unsaved wound caused by his ellbowblades „Grandfather“ or „Peacekeeper“ in close combat, Gwalchavad immediately makes an additional attack. These extra attacks can generate further additional attacks in the same way, until no further unsaved wounds are caused, or all of the enemies are slain. Attacks conjured this way ignore any FNP-Special Rule.

 

WARGEAR

The Mask "mwgwd ddi-rym": Givien to him by the lady of the lake to let him control his pariah powers, this archaic device is capable of focusing Gwalchavad's powers into a coruscating blast of energy which rips apart the target at the atomic level resulting in complete disintegration.

 

It has the following profile:

 

Range Strength AP Rules

Mask 12" 1 2 Assault 1, Piercing Gaze, Life Drain, Aetheric Blast

 

Piercing Gaze: All shots with this weapon are precision shots.

Life Drain: When used against a Psyker this weapon gains the Instant Death special rule.

Aetheric Blast: This weapon has a to wound roll based upon the Mastery Level of the target hit. ML0: 4+ to wound, ML1: 3+ to wound and ML2+: 2+ to wound.

 

Finally Gwalchavad may unmask himself and let his nature run rampant. He may choose to unmask at the beginning of any of his turns at which point he may no longer make use of his mask as a ranged weapon, but gains the following benefits. These changes last until the end of the game:

• All fear checks caused by him are at -2 Ld
• He may re-roll any failed Deny the Witch rolls.
• Any attacks he makes in close combat cause Instant Death on a 5+ and gain the Soul Blaze special rule.

Weapons:

Ellbowblades "Grandfather and Peacekeeper":

Given to him by his brother primarch Daer'dd, Gwalchavad mastered the use of these in no time.These paired weapons are precisely balanced to enable Gwalchavad to unleash a barrage of strikes on his enemies, whilst protecting him from harm. Built inside is a H'rud entropic field which let Opponents who were hit age in mere seconds and reduce them to atomic dust.

 

Range Strength AP Rules

Tonfas - User 2 Melee, Rampage, Rending, Counter-attack, Two-handed, Blind, Murderous Strike

 

Armor:

"The Armor of Light" (trealamh gréine) : This artificial primarch Armour was given to Gwalchavad by his father to support him in his swift combat style.

 

The Armor grants Gwalchavad a 2+ save and Hit and Run

 

Speed of Light: Despite his size, he's too swift for some eyes to track.

 

Gwalchavad has a 4++ Invulnerable Save that can be re-rolled on a 5+.

 

Jump Pack: Hammer of Wrath (D3), Turbo-boost (12")

 

Hidden Blade: A model equipped with a hidden blade may make an additional single attack per turn as well as any they would normally be eligible to make. This is done using the weapon profile shown below:

 

Range S AP Rules

Hidden Blade - User -1 - Melee, Unexpected Strike

 

Unexpected Strike: This attack comes from an unexpected angle leaving opponents little chance to defend themselves. When rolling to hit for attacks with this special rule the target counts as having -1WS (to a minimum of 1).

 

The attack with the hidden blade doesn't count for the "dance of death" special rule.

Edited October 25, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir

[Grifftofer]

It should open fine in open office. You should be able to select a defender from a dropdown menu in the top left. It will then give you a round by round indicator of how people do against him. There are boxes for different rules that the various characters have and by putting in numbers/a "Y" where appropriate you can see how much difference adding or taking away a rule will do to a characters fighting ability.

 

I will add that it isn't accurate for everyone as I haven't finished adding in all the rules yet. And currently Gwal is among the least accurate as he has a few different rules that change his abilities round by round and I haven't figured iut how to implement them yet.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Okay. So i just try the dice version:)

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Thought I'd give you guys a look at the fruits of my labour up until this point. The below document is the most useful bits of my work to try and figure out the balance between Primarchs in combat, condensed into a single page of an Excel sheet.

 

It shows the average number of wounds each Primarch will inflict on a selected opponent based upon their stats and whatever special rules they have. Certain rules are simple on/pff effects others are dependent on dice rolls and thus have a % value associated with them. Eg Murderous Strike has a 17% chance of giving Instant Death. With this I hope to be able to get a better idea of balance between ours and the original Primarchs, which will be more accurate than eyeballing it and quicker than doing the maths every time. As you can see I have a number of special rules here, but it is still a WIP. So I need to figure out how the maths will work out for some of the trickier unique special rules or other annoying universal rules (Damn you Blind!).

 

Even so I hope you guys like it and feel free to play around with it, you may even find it useful ;). It should enable you to quickly change stats or special rules to see the difference it would make to your chosen character's survivability. Anyway enough talking, here's the link:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onq3ip0ogel3hlo/The%20Proving%20Grounds.xlsx?dl=0

Hey you missed something, Alexos has 7 wounds when mutated, not 6^^ but looks great so far!!!

[Grifftofer]

Damn. I knew I would. Well at least its an easy fix in this version :)

[Raktra]

Question on my rules: been talking with Mikhal on FB about my "Grind" rule, as I can't make up my mind in it. Currently there's three versions:

1- on a 5+ wound roll, enemies re-roll successful invulvernable saves

2- on a 5+ wound roll, an unsaved wound becomes two

3- if the enemy fails a save on a 1, the unsaved wound becomes two

 

There's also the more extreme version I had which is re-roll all passd invulnerables, but no more IWND re-rolls. Any thoughts?

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Nr. 2 looks the nicest

[Grifftofer]

I would agree. He will still be the hardest hitting of the Primarchs (including Angron) so it doesn't really matter if its slightly less powerful than the other options. :P

[simison]

Excellent work, Grifft!

[Skalpynock]

Second Admiral Acao Culica      95pts

Lord of the Seventh Expeditionary Fleet, Sky-Walker

 

WS5 BS5 S5 T4 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+

 

Wargear:

• Power armour
• Frag and krak grenades
• Gracchus-Pattern Multilauncher
• Chainaxe

Special Rules:

• Independant character
• Legiones Astartes (Void Eagles)
• Zealot (Maybe. Or similar rule.)
• Sky-Walker

Sky-Walker: At the beginning of the game, Acao Culica must be assigned to a single vehicle or super-heavy in his detachment that has either the "Flyer" or "Skimmer" type. He does not take up any transport capacity and may not leave the vehicle unless it has been immobilized or destroyed. If he is present on a vehicle when it is destroyed, he is treated exactly as if he was a transported model. Afterwards, he may only board vehicles that have a transport capacity.