Big Bad Squig Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Looks like a good start, but I have a few suggestions: Str 6 AP 3 at initiative 6 on a primarch strikes me as very weak. While I appreciate that Shred and Rending makes Yucahu more likely to do damage, against the other Primarchs I don't think he'll have much of a chance. To try and balance this, I might boost his I/A value, so that he hits fast, but not too hard. That or boosting his rending to be on a 5+, like what Koschei has on his knife. For the sire rule (and others), you could go with manipulation of reserves/deep strikes (inkeeping with the fleetmaster theme). Some form of orbital bombardment ability might also be nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Invictus Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Maybe give him the MOS D3 orbital bombardments and something like D3 units have deep strike? I'd also make the sword AP 2, but that's personal preference Skalpynock 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Added an extra attack, rend(4+) on the spear, a bombardment special rule, and a nuncio-vox in his wargear (how the hell is he supposed to give orders to planes by shouting?) Yucahu ??? PointsThe Brazen Eagle, Helmsman of the Ala Lux WS BS S T W I A LD SvYucahu 7 6 6 6 6 6 5 10 2+Unit Composition 1 (Unique)Unit Type Infantry (Character)Wargear The Astral Plumage Hullbreaker Wayfarer's Hand Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Nuncio-VoxSpecial Rules Primarch (Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, It Will Not Die, Master of the Legion) Sire of the Void Eagles Bulky Wings of Fire [special Rule 2]Sire of the Void Eagles All friendly models with Legiones Astartes (Void Eagles) in the same army as Yucahu mayWayfarer's Hand A bolt-revolver built to the specifications of the Eagle, it features piercing rounds designed to chew through bulkheads and void-armor alike Weapon Range Str AP Type Wayfarer Hand 16" 6 2 Pistol, Armourbane Hullbreaker This chain-spear is a weaponized variant of tools used by naval salvage teams on ancient Coaban. In the hand of the primarch of the Fourth, it makes a devastating flesh-grinder Weapon Range Str AP Type Hullbreaker - +1 3 Melee, Shred, Rending (4+), WreckerThe Astral Plumage 2+ armour save, 4+ invulnerable save Wings of Fire Twice per game, instead of firing a weapon in the shooting phase, Yucahu may order a bombardment against the enemy. It has the following profile: Weapon Range Str AP Type Bombardment Unlimited 9 3 Ordnance D3, Large Blast (5"), Barrage Edited October 28, 2015 by Skalpynock Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I think that Hullbreaker needs a little something to make it worthy of the name. Probably along the lines of +1S and wrecker, so that he can use it to actually break through the armour of most vehicles. Looking at it he'll only really have problems with 2+ save marines, his brother Primarchs he wounds on a 4+ anyway so he'll always get the rend, but regular marines he can wound on a 2+ meaning only about 60% of his wounds will be AP2. I would also not restrict his bombardment to once per game, he is the fleet master after all and he'll likely only use it around 2-3 times per game anyway if you get him into combat. I suppose you could always leave him out of combat and just use the bombardment, but then you're paying 400 points for that one effect. Ok, having thought it through a bit more maybe just let him use it twice as potentially 6 bombardments of that strength are worth 400 points on their own. As to his Legion rule perhaps something making deep strike more accurate? Or as others have said reserve manipulation is always good, maybe even both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) [i'll comment on Yuchau in a separate post.] Alexandros Darshan VonSalim 470 points The [???], The Seer, Shield-Lord of the Halcyon Wardens [Approaching Warmaster Fluff] WS BS S T W I A LD Sv Alexandros 7 5 6 6 5 6 5 10 2+ Unit Composition 1 (Unique)Unit Type Infantry (Character) Wargear The Auspice Armor The Aegis Xiphos Ultimatum Frag grenades Melta Bombs [No more?] Special Rules Primarch (Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, It Will Not Die, Master of the Legion) Sire of the Halcyon Wardens Psyker Level 4 Foresight Psyker Duelist Bulky Special Rules Sire of the Halcyon Wardens Whether protecting an Imperium world from attack or exterminating a hostile xeno race, the Lord of the Wardens always directs the battle with special attention to minimizing his casualties, be they Space Marine, Imperial Army, or Mechanicum. As such, he places himself in the most dangerous zone of the battlefield leading his Myrmidon to protect his lines. All units in both primary and allied detachments may use Alexandros' leadership value in lieu of their own for morale and pinning test if Alexandros is in play. Additionally, Alexandros is able to watch over the units closest to them and forewarn them of danger, granting a 6+ Invulnerable save or a +1 to an existing Invulnerable save that can't improve beyond a 3+ save to all units within 12 inches of Alexandros. Myrmidon may be taken as Troop choices for a Halcyon Wardens primary detachment with Alexandros as Warlord. Foresight Before the enemy commander knows that there will be a battle, the Seer already knows where and when it will be. As such, Alexandros may choose two Warlord traits from the Strategic table. Psyker Duelist With his mastery over Divination, Alexandros has perfected a technique for gazing into the near future even as he is in the middle of war's maelstrom. Alexandros always has the Precognition power. Armor of Auspice Upon completing his instruction on Terra, the Emperor himself presented this unique armor to Alexandros. Utilizing lost technology from an earlier age, this artificer armor provides powerful protection, while enhancing Darshan's control over his powers and defend his soldiers from foul warpcraft. This armor provides a 2+ armor save, adds +1 to Perils of the Warp chart, and may roll for Deny the Witch for any unit targeted within 24 inches of him. The Aegis The shield combined a power shield and grav generator to protect its owner from harm. The Aegis provides a 4+ Invulnerable Save and every enemy model in close combats attacks by 1, to a minimum of 1. Due to its size, Alexandros may never claim an additional attack from being armed with two close combat weapons. Xiphos Based on ancient Grekian designs, Xiphos is a perfectly balanced sword with edges and a point sharpened to a monomolecular level. [Fluff sentence]. This weapon was a repayment from Ferrus Manus to Alexandros after the latter arrived as reinforcements during the Parviaten Liberation campaign. It's maneuverability combined with Alexandros skill has ended many opponents with one surgical attack. Range S AP Type Xiphos - User 2 Melee, Force, Surgical Strike* *On to wound rolls of 6, Alexandros wounds regardless of Toughness. Invulnerable saves are allowed. Ultimatum Although the Aegis was supposed to be Dear'dds gift to himself, the master smith still found the time to create his own gift for his close brother before they parted. This plasma blaster contains an expertly balanced power system, preventing any kind of overheating and does not have the Gets Hot! special rule. Note – Alexandros may only roll from the Divination and/or Telepathy disciplines. ~~~ I'm on the verge of creating Warmaster Alex's profile, and wanted to update his current one with all of the new debuffs. I'm considering two more debuffs: one, remove melta bombs and force him to be at a disadvantage against vehicles. Two, removing the Myrmidon as troops ability. But, I'm curious, if I go through with both of these, should he still be 470 points or should he be cheaper? Also, someone on Heresy30k gave me the idea that if he's going to have Precognition permanently, then it should take up one of his 4 power slots. This would also prevent him from gaining Psychic focus on the Telepathy discipline, so it counts as two minor debuffs as well. Also, Dear'dd, did he create Ultimatum and Aegis or just Ultimatum? Edited October 30, 2015 by simison Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I would be sad if you changed him actually simison, he was already super awesome and well balanced.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Well he looks decent. Maybe gonwith the slot reserved for recognition. But you should remove ferrus manus from the fluff. Nibody in this universe knows of a smith called ferrus manus;) And your shield rule needs a rewrite. Actually it makes no sense;) Edited October 28, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Just some rule ideas for Yucachu. __ # of units arrive by deep strike on either turn one or two the controlling player chooses. May begin rolling for reserves turn one. Units placed in reserve gain outflank. Add a teleportation matrix to his wargear allowing Yucachu and an attached unit to deep strike without scatter. Or just a teleport homer. He may force the opposing player to reroll successful reserve rolls. Or he may choose to add or subtract 1 to/from his own players reserve rolls. Just brainstorming. Edited October 28, 2015 by Demus Ragnok Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 I would be sad if you changed him actually simison, he was already super awesome and well balanced.. I've received different reactions from Heresy30k and DakkaDakka. More importantly, I'm a little concerned for the power levels I'm seeing here. After reviewing our Primarchs versus the Canon ones, we seem to be on the average 40-50 points more expensive. Angron and Guilliman are both 400 points, but do we have anyone that low? Of course, there's an alternate explanation that maybe we are overestimating our own point levels, but I'm not sure. All these special rules are so hard to navigate (I'm referring to in general, not us). So, I've gotten the urge to try to scale back both of my Primarchs to be more reasonable. And, honestly, there's a virtue in being cheaper, it's easier to field. That and, Alex still needs his Warmaster upgrade, and he will be hitting 500 points for that. So, I'm more inclined to balance him now when I'm on the verge of splicing him up. (Bioshock reference, ftw.) Fenbain 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 Skal, before I do anything too in-depth, can you tell me what kind of warrior Yuchau is supposed to be? I doubt he's supposed to be a beatstick or a ranger like Angron or Corax. Is he supposed to be primarily support? What's the aim here? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Squig Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 More importantly, I'm a little concerned for the power levels I'm seeing here. After reviewing our Primarchs versus the Canon ones, we seem to be on the average 40-50 points more expensive. Angron and Guilliman are both 400 points, but do we have anyone that low? This worries me too, and I'm seriously considering changing Azus to be around that level (maybe even a complete rewrite, cause I'm not happy with either the rules, or the model). The cheapest I can think of is Koschei at 415 pts, but that might be blatant egotism making me ignore somebody else [i'll comment on Yuchau in a separate post.] Alexandros Darshan VonSalim 470 points The [???], The Seer, Shield-Lord of the Halcyon Wardens Xiphos Based on ancient Grekian designs, Xiphos is a perfectly balanced sword with edges and a point sharpened to a monomolecular level. [Fluff sentence]. This weapon was a repayment from Ferrus Manus to Alexandros after the latter arrived as reinforcements during the Parviaten Liberation campaign. It's maneuverability combined with Alexandros skill has ended many opponents with one surgical attack. Range S AP Type Xiphos - User 2 Melee, Force, Surgical Strike* *On to wound rolls of 6, Alexandros wounds regardless of Toughness. Invulnerable saves are allowed. The only quibble I have is that surgical strike is almost always pointless as I don't know of anything with high enough toughness to warrant the rule (don't have my rulebook to check wounding rolls). I would either get rid of it or incorporate something like auto-pens vehicles on sixes as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I'm not sure if I'm remembering right but I think that our lower end Primarchs are the one who don't have points values assigned to them yet. Kozja and Coch'ise I think work out as being at the bottom of the scale as it stands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 For me the struggle with bro verse rules vs canon is that there are many years of fluff to frame the canon primarchs. The bro verse characters are relative infants fluff wise. And some of us ( me) have struggled to get our fluff out where others can give solid feed back. My fluff to rules translation is frustrating because I don't want the Fire Keepers to be Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, or Salamanders but have aspects of each of those without being OP. How I really see the FK is Dark Angels with a smith/ mason bend. How that works I'm not sure. I'm cool with scaling back primarch rules if everyone else is. But personally my guy ain't no murder machine! And my legion rules need...something but I can't decide what. Anyway I'm just rambling now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Yarrr. Legion rules are damn difficult to make. I had a talk with AO about this. Half of my legion are blanks. The other not. How would you make an even split between your troops? All blank is just dumb cause that would be osykilling. We thought about paying 10 oints per unit and then roll a d6+ 1 and those would be the blanks. Then as the wardens utilize cross fire tactcs. All vehicles and jetbike get the outflank rule? And what with the mass use of heavy support? So many decission. As for the primarch. After a lot of playtesting Gwal is all but not a killer machine. He can be strong. Can but even then he is easy to kill. Like a glasshammer.;) Against cheap primarchs like angron he looks very bad. His is very strong against infantery cause of his range and attacks but against primarchs......depends really on the situation and that I like. And he was developed with canonverse in mind. Edited October 28, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Simison, if you are looking for a Warmaster title (just like Horus has "The Eye of Terra") Might I recommend "The Voice of Terra" to showcase his role as more of a diplomatic Warmaster. Or, the other option is to go full on warrior and have hime be "The Shield of Terra" for obvious reasons when alluding to his lore. Also I agree about the concern with power Levels, the average points cost for Primarchs should sit around 400 points. with the best of them being 400-450. The reason for it (I think) is pretty clear. People see one BotL Primarch first and balance their rules against them, and want to make their just a bit more powerful, to make them special. Like i said before, it really looks like a power creep. The BotL Primarchs should be balanced against the cannon Primarchs first and then minor tweak to have them fit in with the new pantheon of their peers. ++++ Finally as to rules that befit a Warmaster, I think you should keep him right about where he is but give him a tool to overcome (or at least strain) other Primarch level Characters in combat. This is an Idea was thinking about that would be lore appropriate for him (I think) and also has precedent in the rules: An Eye for Defense Alexandros is a master of the defensive. But where some might see timidity in defense, Alexandros excles in using his gift offensively. His superlative knowledge of the defensive arts allows him to pinpoint weakness in the posture and combat style of his foes. While fighting in a challenge, Alexandros forces opponents to re-roll successful invulnerable saves. Edited October 28, 2015 by Athrawes simison 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I think this is a good idea. A bit of a rebalance to level the playing field between the BotL and canon universes sounds like a fine plan. I actually had of a bit of a look into the canon primarchs when we started and their average points is at 423 (with pre-Istvaan Corax and pre-ascension Lorgar). I think this would be a fair points value to aim for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 Squig, Surgical Strike was originally Rending. But there was a lot of criticism against it since Xiphos doesn't seem like the right weapon to 'rend'. So, Surgical Strike was created, but applied to flesh only to make it weak against vehicles. It was supposed to give Alex a chance to wound Toughness 9/10 creatures. Simison, if you are looking for a Warmaster title (just like Horus has "The Eye of Terra") Might I recommend "The Voice of Terra" to showcase his role as more of a diplomatic Warmaster. ++++ Finally as to rules that befit a Warmaster, I think you should keep him right about where he is but give him a tool to overcome (or at least strain) other Primarch level Characters in combat. This is an Idea was thinking about that would be lore appropriate for him (I think) and also has precedent in the rules: An Eye for Defense Alexandros is a master of the defensive. But where some might see timidity in defense, Alexandros excles in using his gift offensively. His superlative knowledge of the defensive arts allows him to pinpoint weakness in the posture and combat style of his foes. While fighting in a challenge, Alexandros forces opponents to re-roll successful invulnerable saves. I love that title! I'll be sure to add that in. For his Warmaster upgrade, the plan was to give him the new terminator suit and the Spear of Terra. It was only this week that I considered giving him one more special rule, and I like your suggestion quite a bit. Good timing! I think this is a good idea. A bit of a rebalance to level the playing field between the BotL and canon universes sounds like a fine plan. I actually had of a bit of a look into the canon primarchs when we started and their average points is at 423 (with pre-Istvaan Corax and pre-ascension Lorgar). I think this would be a fair points value to aim for. I'm glad that we have a wide consensus that the points are getting a little out there. But, I think we can aim a little higher in the 430-440 point range. Because we still have 6 more canon Primarchs left and that includes Magnus, Russ, and Sanguinius, all of whom I believe are going to be up there. So, we're agreed that the points need to come down. But we have one important question to answer first. Are the point values currently accurate? For example, my Primarch calculator is a very nuts-and-bolts viewpoint, or a tactical one, much like the Primarch duels. But, there is a strategic view as well, considering them how they operate when paired with their armies or looking at how all of their rules operates in conjunction. Alex was originally 450 points because Slips pointed out Alex was a specialist Primarch and that is an example of strategically judging, whether or not you agreed with his assessment. Another example would be my decision on melta bombs. I'm thinking about taking them out because that would give Alex a real vulnerability and limitation against walkers and heavy vehicles. But, before I do that, I'm going to go through all of the canon primarchs to see if any of them have a weakness like that. I'm glad that we're aware of this and working on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 While I do think we lack low tier Primarchs I think part of our Primarch issue is Cannonverse Primarchs are purposefully under costed, I mean I'm not sure of a cost analysis comparison. But Daer'dd is comparable closely to Vulkan and Ferrus, and he doesn't hit as hard as either nor is survivable and costs more than both, with about the same shooting . Also Simison, I'd imagine Daer'dd would take the time to craft both for Alexandros, he is one of his closest brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 While I do think we lack low tier Primarchs I think part of our Primarch issue is Cannonverse Primarchs are purposefully under costed, I mean I'm not sure of a cost analysis comparison. But Daer'dd is comparable closely to Vulkan and Ferrus, and he doesn't hit as hard as either nor is survivable and costs more than both, with about the same shooting . Also Simison, I'd imagine Daer'dd would take the time to craft both for Alexandros, he is one of his closest brothers. That's what I'm curious about. Niklaas is going to craft the terminator armor, but there's nothing to stop Daer'dd from crafting the spear. Do you remember the rule set we made? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Nope, but a weapon of the Warmaster needs to be of a quality peerless. Fluffwise Daer'dd would not settle for anything less. Maybe something that limits the amount attacks but is Fleshbane, Ap1, instant death, rerolls to successful invulnerable saves? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 nanyte blade ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 Quick question: did Worldbreaker get made by the Emperor? Also, I think I found a piece of evidence for the undercosting. Actually, the point system might be a little schizophrenic. In Massacre, Forgebreaker is worth 40 points when it's taken away from Ferrus. In Extermination, Perturabo can buy it for 35 points, with the addition of Blind and Unwieldy. Using my own system, where AP is worth 5 points per level, I immediately start at 30 points before I even touch the x2 strength. ... Does anybody feel like we're playing a skit out of Whose Line Is It, Anyway? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 The Spear of Terra S+2/+1 AP 1 Melee force lance master crafted. That's what was settled on previously. simison 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I have the rules for the spear of terra. Can't get to them just now though as my better half is using my computer. Also I'd say daer'dd hits as hard as ferrus and vulkan. He doesn't have the raw strength value of their weapons, but has more attacks (and shred?) To compensate for that. I will agree that they are tougher though, by a reasonable amount. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Quick question: did Worldbreaker get made by the Emperor? Also, I think I found a piece of evidence for the undercosting. Actually, the point system might be a little schizophrenic. In Massacre, Forgebreaker is worth 40 points when it's taken away from Ferrus. In Extermination, Perturabo can buy it for 35 points, with the addition of Blind and Unwieldy. Using my own system, where AP is worth 5 points per level, I immediately start at 30 points before I even touch the x2 strength. ... Does anybody feel like we're playing a skit out of Whose Line Is It, Anyway? GW has no "system" they just make it as they go. And "Legion Power Creep" is real. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/14/#findComment-4209790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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