IL XVI - The Drowned

[Hesh Kadesh]

To start with, although I'm waiting for Book 8 to see what direction it takes, and how they provide Rites of War for the Termite (which seem to be encouraged for a Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors, and Salamanders deal) before saying one way or the other.

[simison]

In which case, we'll go with Grifft's take for now and revise accordingly when Book 8 drops.

[simison]

The Forlorn

 

Comparison Base: Gal Vorbak (200 points)

 

Attributes

 

• -1 W, A: (-15) points
  

 

Total: (-15) points

 

Wargear

 

• No Change
  

 

Total: 0 points

 

Special Rules

• Channeled Powers: 40 points
  

 

Total: 40 points

 

Total cost: 25 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 225 points

 

Notes: 

 

• I'm extremely uncomfortable with Channeled Powers given that it's essentially 5th edition psyker powers. The Lidless Stare, in particular, is very powerful.
  

[simison]

After further thought, I recommend the Forlorn receive some DE influence, while the navigator-marines are removed from the unit and made into a consul.

[bluntblade]

Grouping together the bits and bobs I currently have for Morro's rules and wargear:

 

Sorrowsworn Morro

Master of the Drowned, the Copper Prince, the Impure

A caustic presence in the brotherhood of Primarchs, Morro only escaped censure by his gift for waging war in the most inhospitable climates. As sinister as Raktra of the VIIth, he was yet more capricious, beholden to no code but what he saw as the laws of survival. A longing for greater power and resentment at his disfigurement by a brother Primarch drove him to stray far beyond the bounds of Imperial law and morality. Behind the taciturn facade of the XVIth Legion his ambition ran rampant, leading them into gene-meddling and a hunt for tainted xenos weaponry. In joining Icarion, Morro secured the freedom to pursue still darker goals, shackling his dark soul ever more to the Ruinous Powers.

 

Agoniser Tendrils

At the beginning of their macabre evolution, the Tendrils were a pair of multiple-tailed and savagely bladed whips, over which Morro’s implants leant him preternatural control. It is theorised that Urien Rakarth had a hand in their design, as they epitomised cruelty in the way that the Dark Eldar have made a hallmark of their weapons. Nontheless, the Tendrils were a more potent set of weapons than perhaps any wielded by that race.

 

The Deeping Plate

Based on the armour fashioned for Morro on Feneos, the Deeping Plate integrated Martian power armour technology with the brute utilitarianism and archeotech that had protected Morro against the worst hazards of his homeworld. Morro was never satisfied with his raiment, and it was continuously overhauled to endure the ravages of both ocean and void.

 

Dead in the Water

Morro cared naught for clean or painless kills, and in all modes of warfare he thrived on the exploitation of weakness. His fighting style encapsulated this, the taking of limbs and eyes becoming as much an act of torment as tactical expediency.

Edited June 21, 2019 by bluntblade

[Hesh Kadesh]

I am rather against the concept of making it a consul. The Forlorn are the get or Rakarth and his ilk, and thus are not Leaders, Centurions, or otherwise, where even the extreme end, the Moritat is one who has embraced the concept.

 

These are simply the combination of Rakarth's twistedness given an even freer reign away fron the eyes of Comorragh, with the resoirces available to aid in the creation of Astartes making them into super grotesques, as embodiments of 'She Who thirsts' het twisted in a mockery/praise of their Primarch. They are not leaders. Nor are they a particularly fantastic Navigator: shown by the fact that such 'Navigators' only get access to one power, while Expeditionary Navigators have access to all 3.

 

I also think you're over egging how dangerous the Lidless Stare is: it has a 6% higher chance to kill an MEQ vs a standard Flamer, allows Cover Saves, and has a 28% chance of causing the unit to Go To Ground (double checking Pinning, it is a special rule which forces GTG if failed, so if there is no GTG its pointless: ergo that special rule can be removed), meaning that they then cannot charge.

 

Any non Eternal Warrior IC might find it worriesome, but with a 5++, they only have a 1.3% chance of being Instantly Killed every time it is fired.

 

They are mlre dangerous vs Terms, of course, but then there is the fact that the unit has no way of dealing with Terminators short of relying on Rends, and that if they fail, they sre sat in front of a Terminator Squad while pinned.

 

Plus the added special rule that it can only be used once per turn ('Successfully' can be removed, given that failure instantly pins the squad with the above change), means that even in the likely use of a 'Serrated Suns'esque Rite of War to let the. Be troops, they still can't score, and taking 4 full squads means that you are spending nearly 900pts to Pin one of your own squads and kill maybe 3 MEQs (one per Template).

 

I don't have a problem with upping the cost for each Navigator power based on its usefulness, but I'm not sure why the entire squad costs extra points over the otherwise Identical (if not slightly better) Gal Vorbak, who at least have a 3W, 3A, Ld9 Sarge who can Challenge Shield for any Attached Character thanks to a S10 Powerfist.

[simison]

My issues with the Forlorn are twofold. 

 

One, for all of the talk about being under the influence of DE tech, there's no evidence of it. Their rules are comprised entirely of daemonic influence and the navigators. As it stands right now, there is no rule to suggest DE influence. I suggest perhaps giving them Power through Pain or something that actually gives a DE vibe.

 

Two, navigators are extremely rare and represent a tremendous resource throughout the galaxy. As such, I don't think they should be available in large numbers, and should be as representative as librarians and our nemesis consuls. I would also like to add that several of the consuls aren't proper leaders, but more or less specialists. That's a niche where the navigator-marine better fits. 

 

While I'm on the talk of fluff vs. crunch conflicts, I've taken a sharper look at the Monarchs unit. I'm not sure why it didn't click before, but you essentially have five captains running around the battlefield as a single unit. This violates how captains are used in-game and clashes with the practicality of the Drowned by grouping so many officers into a single location. A single, well-timed missile strike has the possibility of crippling the Drowned command structure. Given this, I recommend that the fluff for the unit to be changed to an elite, CC unit. Not necessarily change much in the way of crunch (at least at this stage), but rewrite the fluff so it's not a bunch of captains. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

So

- add a [renamed?] Power Through Pain to the Forlorn

- remove the Navigator/Channeled Powers options

- create a Consul, who changes stats and special rules, to that of a Gal Vorbak Dark Martyr, alongside a Lone Killer variant rule allowing it to only join Forlorn, no Wargear options, may take one single Channeled/Navigator Power

 

- regarding the Monarchs, the Captains are entirely seperate, while it is the Monarchs who decide the actions (and are nominated as a selection of peers) of the Legion regarding their interaction with other legions. They have no rank. They are like a Chaplain, or PTI in the Armed Forces, they hold an equal rank to whoever they are addressing.

 

Captains who are noted for their Leadership potential are rarely seperated from their command.

 

They already are what you say. An elite squad tasked with taking down heavy tactical threats, such as knights, titans or super-heavies courtesy of their Lascutters and ability to avoid stomps. However, they have a role, and that is ensuring they do not get wasted as bullet shields by their host legion, and ostensibly act as a voice, from the newest fully trained recruit, to the Lord Commander Hennasohn, and even that of other Primarchs (against, in theory).

 

They were 'Staff' Officers with a specific Combat role. They were given that responsibility, but proved that responsibility was earned by taking the more dangerous tasks in battle. Plus, there are those who would seek to promote some into the Monarchs as a means of their own advancement within the legion, like some would encourage their political opponents into Religious Studies.

 

It also ensured that the Monarchs were not able to seek power, because it was their tactical role to fulfil the key anti SHeavy/Gargantuan Hunters, and thus if they were forcing their own legion to take down powerful threats, they would also have to operate in those conditions. And kept the allied forces honest if the Monarchs thought that they were at undue risk to the Drowned compared due to the host legions lack of equitable commitment.

 

Perhaps that is on me at not having made that clear. My bad.

[Hesh Kadesh]

As to a second Rite of War

- Forlorn become troops. Each squad necessitates a single 'Navigator' Consul to be taken which does not take up a FoC slot, and cannot leave the unit

- Librarians can take Malefic: all daemon units summoned must take Crusader (or Slaanesh Marked units only in old rules). In addition, a single Greater Daemon may be taken as a Lord of War, with the Psyker (Mastery 3: Telepathy) option for X cost (Belakor). If using Old rules, must be Be'lakor.

- Similar rules to the Dark Compliance regarding allied Militia

- May not take more Dreadnoughts than units of Forlorn.

- all none Forlorn troops gain Support Squad

- extra required troop slot (min cost =1000pts ish)

- May not take allies, eith the exception of Militia allies who have at least one of either Tainted Flesh or Cult Horde Provenance (or other Traitor only specific Provenance)

[Doctor Perils]

For the "Navigator marines", what about an elite conclave similar to apothecaries or Techmarines ?

[bluntblade]

In that case, history and Command Hierarchy need amending

[simison]

Perhaps a simplified/lesser version of Power through Pain to represent the fact that it represents an imperfect version of DE teachings/tech.

 

Also, how does the daemonic influence come into play? I was under the impression that the DE are hostile to Chaos given the danger to their own souls. 

[simison]

Charonic Seekers

 

Comparison Base: Wolf Guard Terminators (270 points)

 

Attributes

 

• -1 W, A: (-15) points
  
• +1 Unit LD: 10 points
  

 

Total: (-5) points

 

Wargear

 

• Teleportation Transponder: 15 points
  
• Havoc Launchers: 75 points
  

 

Total: 90 points

 

Special Rules

• Precision Shot: 5 points
  
• Marked for Death: 25 points
  
• Independent Missile Targeting: 15 points
  
• Fear: (-10) points
  
• Stubborn: (-15) points
  
• Crushing Charge: (-10) points
  
• Lordsbane: (-15) points)
  

 

Total: (-5) points

 

Total cost: 80 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 350 points

 

Notes: 

 

• TBD
  

Edited June 4, 2018 by simison

[Hesh Kadesh]

Perhaps a simplified/lesser version of Power through Pain to represent the fact that it represents an imperfect version of DE teachings/tech.

 

Also, how does the daemonic influence come into play? I was under the impression that the DE are hostile to Chaos given the danger to their own souls. 

 

That's doable

 

The Forlorn

Known as the Gibborim, in the Feneosean tongue, the Forlorn were created in secret from the rest of the legion by the dark artifice of captured flesh crafter, Urien Rakarth. These twisted amalgamations of the Astartes physique were created with the knowledge of millenia and made possible by the vile seeds of a warp entity soul-stitched with the shattered remnants of the hosts immortal being. With the chronic lack of Dreadnought chassis available to the legion, and the large attrition rate of their individual campaigns, Morro instructed Rakarth to assist with a way in which the fighting strength of the legion could be preserved, and it was the Forlorn that were delivered.

 

They stalked the battlefield, ancient unbridled hatred at the trueliving, as the Neverborn hiding amongst the soul were able to feel the effects of their true emotions upon  real-space, capable of tearing through Terminator Armour, or peeling back layers of armour from Land Raider Battle Tanks should they get close enough. Their fleshwarped bodies were able to withstand a horrific amount of damage, but while on board their transport vessels, they are kept in purely white rooms, inhibiting any sort of stimulus from which they may draw pleasure in, their food is kept tasteless, their cells isolated from each other and the rest of the ship, and are transported directly to their transport for battle.

 

Bitter Duty; The unit may not be joined by friendly independent characters (save for Helmsman Consuls).

 

Power From Pain (See 7E Codex: Haemonculus Covens); For the purposes of the Power From Pain table, Forlorn Squads and Helmsman consuls consider the turn to be 1 turn earlier than what it currently is. (e.g. on Turn 3, those two units gain the effects of Turn 2 special rule, while on Turn 4, it is considered to be Turn 3, At Turn 7, it is considered to be Turn 6 etc).

 

(TL;DR, not including the negative Turn modifier, I'm not sure which table is better suited. I'll leave it to you guys to decide.

1 - None

2 - Fearless

3 - Fear

4 - It Will Not Die

5 - Zealot

6 - EW

 

vs

 

1 - None

2 - FNP6+

3 - FNP

4 - FNP, Furious Charge

5 - FNP, FC, Fearless

6 - FNP, FC, Fearless, Rage)

 

Helmsman; Consul (+55pts)

The Helmsman, were a special breed of the Forlorn. On a world whose name has now been lost - or intentionally forgotten - a relatively small family of Navigators were discovered by a tendril of the Drowned, operating on their own. Returning to the Kelyfos fleet, they were assessed in brief by the legion's own Navigators, but were determined to be of a limited usefulness; not strong or capable enough to be able to control an immense vessel like an Astartes Capital ship, nor accurate enough to be able to be used as a fast response to a threat, they would have been limited to moving low-importance shipping between nearby systems.

 

Not deeming them important enough to return to the Imperium's satrapy's immediately, they were nonetheless secreted wholesale, and remained aboard the Kelyfos. From then, history makes no mention of what happened, but what was observed in the later days of the Insurrection was the use of not only the Forlorn, but seemingly Forlorn who were able to use abilities similar to those of a Navigator. There has been no other recorded use of a Navigator as an Astartes - they were simply too valuable to risk the high attrition rate of the implantation process, which combined with the toll taken of their bodies by their gifts, made them poor aspirants. It is not known whether this corruption was done as a result of Morro's blessing or instruction, or without his knowledge, but Urien Rakarth's ministrations have approached a horrific blend of ancient eldar technology, and the powers of the warp to achieve something that none, save possibly the Emperor himself, had been able to do. 

 

During battle, they steer the Forlorn in the seeking of objectives, the connection formed through the Third Eye of the Navigator giving the Helmsman a semblance of tactical and strategic knowledge and skill, seemingly allowing the bearer to play host to a stronger, more capable warp beast.

 

Wargear

- May not take any Options, save for exchanging their Bolt Pistol for a Plasma Pistol (+15pts)

 

 

Special Rules

- The Helmsman loses the Legiones Astartes special rule, but gains the Daemon, Stubborn, Bulky, Rage, Rending (Melee Attacks only), Deep Strike, Damned and Sympathetic Soulbond special rules (see The Forlorn).

- Fleshwarped Fiend; Increase S, and T to 5, and W to 3.

- Lone Killer; A Helmsman may not be taken as a Compulsory HQ choice, only as an optional HQ choice, and may never be the army's Warlord. Note that this means that a Moritat may not be taken as part of an Allied Detachment. They may not join units or travel inside transports with other units with the exception of The Forlorn. They may not benefit from any Blessing type psychic powers, or Leadership bonuses, Leadership rerolls or other special rules provided by other friendly models or army-wide effects which are the result of a Rite of War.

- Channeled Powers; Helmsmen have a range of powers, one of which may be attempted in the phase indicated so long as the Helmsman is not engaged in an assault. These powers do not count as Psychic Powers, and the Helmsman does not use Warp Charge points or have access to any Psychic Disciplines. However, the Helmsman does count as a Psyker and/or Navigator for the purposes of rules that work against Psykers and/or Navigators, such as Hatred (Psykers), or weapons that have additional rules against Psykers.

 

In order to use a Channeled Power, the Helmsman must make a Leadership test. If the test is passed, the chosen power is used as described. If the test is failed, the power is not used, and the Helmsman and their unit is Pinned.

 

- The Lidless Stare

- Warp Prescience

- Aetheric Disruption

 

RITE OF WAR; CHOIR TENEBRUM

When the Forlorn were unleashed fully in dedicated actions, these hulking monstrosities would flood the battlefield in a broiling tidal surge of hell, gamboling towards the loyalist lines in gleeful anticipation of the slaughter to come, expressing the repressed emotions in the most violent way possible. Each deployment of the Forlorn was directed individually by a Helmsman. Invariably, this incoming tsunami of meat and bone and reckless hate heralds the oncoming of a daemonic incursion. 

 

Effects

- Forlorn Squads may be taken as Troops in a detachment using this Rite of War.

- A single Winged Greater Daemon with the Psyker (Mastery 3) special rule may be taken as a Lord of War choice for [175]pts. It must generate its powers from the Telepathy Discipline only. If Sorrowsworn Morro is present in the army, then this may be taken as a non-compulsory HQ choice instead of as a Lord of War. Designer's Note; Some players may be in possession of older publications which contain rules for Daemon units. If both players agree, the rules and points costs for Be'lakor, The Dark Master can be used instead of the generic daemon rules presented here.

- Drowned Librarians taken in a detachment using this Rite of War may generate their powers from the Daemonology (Malefic) discipline. All conjured daemons from a Drowned Librarian must select the Crusader special rule. Designer's Note; if using older publications, you may only summon units with the Daemon of Slaanesh special rule.

- An Allied Imperialis Militia Detachment taken alongside a Detachment using this Rite of War with either the Cult Horde and/or Tainted Flesh Provenance change their level of allegiance to be Sworn Brothers.

 

Limitations

- Tactical Squads and Assault Squads gain the Support Squad special rule in a detachment using this Rite of War

- One additional Troop Squad must be taken in a detachment using this Rite of War.

- You may have no more Forlorn Squads than you have Helmsman Consuls. You may have no more Helmsman Consuls than you have Forlorn Squads. A Helmsman Consul must be attached to a Forlorn Squad during your deployment, and may not voluntarily leave it during the game. No more than one Helmsman may be attached to the same Forlorn Squad during deployment. Helmsman Consuls do not use up a Force Organisation choice

- No more than a single Dreadnought may be taken per Force Organisation choice, regardless of the Unit Composition or options available to the unit. Leviathan Siege Dreadnoughts and those who are already limited to a single Dreadnought on the Force Organisation Chart become "(Unique)".

- This Rite of War may only be taken as a Primary Detachment, and may never have an allied Legiones Astartes detachment, nor may they take any optional Fortifications.

 

Pelagic Monarchs

When an Astartes is fully inducted into the Drowned Legion following their training period, they are eligible to cast their vote into who represents their will outside of the typical command structure of the legion. Sometimes, this may be a squad sergeant, or following a direct line of command, but there are others within the legion who may be equally able to represent the desires, during meetings known as the Shoals. It appears to be similar in structure to the concept of warrior lodges, and, like with most of the Drowned, it is hard to see whether one was subsumed into the other, or ignored. Regardless of its origin, the concept remained similar within the shoal - rank meant nothing, provided you were a fully inducted member of the Drowned, and you were nominated by your peers within the legion to attend. What happened within the Shoal was outside of the legion jurisdiction. It was these Shoals which would allow a senior Commander to learn what the members of his command were thinking, and allow him to communicate more directly to them, without having it filtered through a command structure. It allowed the Drowned to operate on a highly intuitive process, as there was an understanding of the reason behind decisions, and the adaptive nature of the Legions personnel shone through. 

 

Once nominated, a legionary would serve for life, and a replacement would only ever be chosen on the death of the previously nominated representative. Ever-smaller shoals would establish themselves within the larger shoal, where groups would nominate individuals to represent themselves in ever smaller cliques, until only a few remained at the top - a council of several Astartes, who could range, in theory, from being the newest inducted member of the legion, all the way through to Lord Commander Hennasohn, or Equerry Boraeo. This council would then establish a single individual to be their representative to those outside the legion. Granting them the rank of Ayatollah, and under the writ of Lord Commander Hennasohn following the legion's split following the Sol System Campaign, a minimum of an equal rank to any member of any Legion to whom they were speaking to. It would be the Ayatollah who would promote the culture and Identity of the legion to those outside it. The other Lord Commanders who served within the Tendril fleets were able to thus focus on the day to day running of their fleets, while allowing the Ayatollah to fight the cause, and protect the Drowned from those who saw advantage in improper use of the Legion.

 

It was a brave Commander of a Legion who would give offense to the Ayatollah, for he had the power to withdraw the support of those Drowned who served in the Expeditionary Fleet. During battle, the Monarchs would take up arms, representing the best face of the Drowned in war as much as they did politically, leading charges with spear and shield in hand. They would take the fight to some of the most dangerous threats the Legion would face, sometimes equipped with Jump Packs to assist with getting close the vulnerable places on the large opponents they often faced. The Ayatollah, and the Monarchs were a council that could potentially dictate the futures of the legion, and they did not take that likely. To show that they were one with the legion, they were often at the forefront of battle, and if mistakes were made it was often with their life. The ability for the Ayatollah's to take the pressure of inter-legion politics away from that of the ranking officer in the tendril fleets allowed them to focus on the command on a strategic and tactical level, while providing a powerful shock troop to fill a gap in the line.

[simison]

Following up on my other question, I decided to do a little digging. The Dark Eldar do despise Chaos, which makes this marriage of DE and Chaos in one Space Marine unit potentially fluff-breaking. 

 

Then I checked on Urien and discovered that he's only lived 'centuries'. He's not nearly old enough to show up in 30k. That seems to be Vect's big claim to fame. So, that needs to changed immediately. 

 

At which point, I checked the timeline. The Fall of the Eldar might have happened right before the Great Crusade launches. Which means there are no Drukhari yet. In fact, 'Dark Eldar' doesn't come into being until 2,000 years later. Now, while Commorragh is already rife with the debauched pleasure/pain cults, there's a legitimate question if there's been enough time for what we think of as the Dark Eldar has crystallized with only a century and a half available. 

 

My best guess is that the Drukhari have already established the methods that prevent Slaanesh from feeding on their souls, but everything outside of that is up for debate. Personally, combat drugs should probably already be a thing, but we run into the earlier problem that DE and Chaos don't mix. So, how does this happen in the Drowned? 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Rakarth is old enough to have seen the Fall (7E Codex: Dark Eldar), which happened 750.M30. The Primarch Project began at this time also.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about whether Dark Eldar existed; of course they existed. The "Dark Eldar" are exactly what the Eldar are. It is the Craftworld Eldar who live the life of an ascetic in an attempt to stave off Slaanesh, and they were considered madmen to the rest of Eldar society - the "Survivalists" and "End of Days" madmen you'd expect to find on a Louis Theroux documentary.

 

Following the Fall, the "True Eldar", (who I'm calling "Dark Eldar") for ease realised that they could use the suffering of others to halt the process of Slaanesh, and began Realspace Raids with a matter of years. In Tales of Heresy there is a story of a Dark Eldar Kabal who go for tribute to a planet around 850.M30 IIRC, which is similar to the time mentioned in Index Astartes for when Vulkan defends against what are clearly Dark Eldar.

 

7E Codex Haemonculus Covens states that the Haemoculi Covens were originally the masters of the ancient Empire, and that Rakarth is the Master of the Prophets of Flesh Coven.

 

As to why the Dark Eldar are suddenly messing with Chaos, it's that Rakarth sees an opportunity within the Primarch, and later the legion to try and barter the Soul of the Eldar. This is before Khaine's Gate is collapsing, so it's simply a matter of expedience; if he can cause a Primarch, along with his Genetic Profile and hence all of his Progeny to act as an Emotional Battery of sorts, then perhaps the ever increasing need for the Dark Eldar to absorb souls can be dropped, or possibly forgotten.

 

Similar to how the Emperor created Primarchs with a goal in his mind, like Magnus was at least ostensibly shown a vision of how it was intended that he Energizer Bunny's the Golden Throne, Morro will be shown a vision over how his goal is to provide a bulwark by having his emotions stripped, and then used to create a warhost of people like him and his Legiones - the future of humanity indeed. Perhaps shown in the manner of the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Future of what he should have experienced when he sees something that would have otherwise triggered a particular emotion.

 

As Morro decides to have a little cry to himself while playing a copy of Robbie Williams "Feel" ("I just wanna feel / real love / feel the home that I live in / cause I got too much life / running through my veins "), Be'lakor has sold him the lie, and then pushes him towards finding Rakarth. When Rakarth is captured, Be'lakor then uses the same lie to suggest how Slaanesh will take the corruption of the "emotion-less" Primarch's genetic legacy in place of the Dark Eldar; which Rakarth wants to believe. Be'lakor is using this as a pretence to try and assist with the breaking of his entrapment by Tzeentch. By empowering Slaanesh, and siding with Nurgle, and combined with Khorne's hatred of trickery and deception to take on the "Magic God", Tzeentch will be at his weakest, and give Be'lakor the greatest chance of escaping, and becoming his own Chaos God as was his original want.

 

When the Insurrection begins to occur, then that makes things even easier for him.

[simison]

• Got a page number for that? I checked my PDFs and discovered that I do have a digital copy. Yet, when I went through it, there was nothing that suggested Urien was that old. Or maybe a section heading would be more apt since my copy doesn't have page numbers.

Yeah, the Vulkan bit reminded me that was a thing. My thought was that maybe this was an opportunity to show how 40k and 30k Dark Eldar are different and how one slowly evolved into the other. Well, GW has smashed that idea. ...or maybe not. Apparently, Kabals are not supposed to be a thing until Vect comes to power. Instead, the Dark Eldar are commanded by an aristocracy. 

As to my comment on 'Dark Eldar', apparently that's a title that only started when Vect himself created it in M32, which the 7th edition codex reaffirms.

Explain to me how this might work. How does 180,000 space marines equal the billions of Dark Eldar in Commorragh? 

To what purpose does an emotion-less Morro serve? Not saying having Be'lakor deceive Morro is a bad thing. I do like the Christmas spirits idea and how its turned on its head to corrupt. But, in this context, Morro has never had the Emperor's favor. Why would the Emperor create a warrior race from Morro's genes when he supposedly has 'better' Primarchs to use instead?

Why would Rakarth (or any DE) trust anything Be'lakor tells him? 

Isn't Be'lakor's forced service to Tzeentch a Fantasy thing and not 40k?

[simison]

[Also, without changes, the Seekers come in at 320 points for the squad.]

 

Pelagic Monarchs

 

Comparison Base: Invictarus Suzerain Squad (200 points)

 

Attributes

 

• +1 I, A: 15 points
  
• + Unit W: 20 points
  

 

Total: 35 points

 

Wargear

 

• Legatine Axe: (-25) points
  
• Melta Bombs: 25 points
  

 

Total: 0 points

 

Special Rules

• Titan Hunters: 55 points
  
• Implacable Advance: (-20) points
  
• Lords of Ultramar: (-10) points
  
• Chosen Warriors: (-10) points
  
• Honour Bearers: (-15) points)
  

 

Total: 0 points

 

Total cost: 35 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 235 points

 

Notes: 

 

• Relatively straightforward. Why does the Pelagic Spear have two profiles?
  

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hi mate, sorry just a quick post as I'm on the road with work and don't have my full notes.

 

-IIRC it was very explicit that he had seen the fall in one of timeline events of m41 relating to him storing soulfood in a pocket dimension.

- being fair, the story about Labals was the from the guy who took over William King's Ragnar Stories, whose fluff grasp was... Introductory.

- I'll have no problem with not using Drukhari or Dark Eldar, but it is apparebt that Dark eldar is 'true eldar', and Craftworld etc Eldar were intentional leading ascetic lifestyles as an alternative to escape it

- this is a bit I struggled slightly with, but as Slaanesh is all but guaranteed the souls of the eldar when they die, what does Rakarth have to lose?

- Regarding the legion, the strnegth would be akin to removing the concept of emotion from those who fight against chaos - by repressing feelings, or not having those feelings, the primal source of the chaos gods power would be lost, as the ultimate power in the galaxy, that of the emperor and his doctrine of non superstition headed by emotionless soldiers would be able to actively reduce the effect of chaos, rather than having their feelings subverted and corrupted, which empowers chaos.

- that would be a reference to a talk that Morro has with the Sigilitte, similar to how Mortarion gets told he has a role to play

- Again, what does Rakarth have to lose? - I also take it that Belakor wouldn't be in his most obvious form Here he is presented with an opportunity to shift it elsewhere.

- Tbh, I don't know. I thought they were the same, Uber Daemon NotGod gets turned into a glorified trumpeter by Tzeentch, but it has been a while.

 

Re Pelagic Spears: Legacy concept can be gotten rid of thanks to Cumbersome Ignoring on the charge. The latter profile is fine, and the power lance removed.

[simison]

Equerry Boraeo

 

Comparison Base: Moritat-Prime Kaedes Nex (155 points)

 

Attributes

 

• +1 BS: 5 points
• + 1 W, LD: 15 points
• -1 I: (-10) points

 

Total: 15 points

 

Wargear

 

• Melta Bombs: (-5) points
• Power Sword: 15 points
• 2xArchaeotech Pistols vs Fulcrum Hand Cannons: 10 points
• Grav-wave generator: 10 points
• Refractor Field: (-10) points
• Shroud bombs: (-5) points
• Camo: (-5) points

 

Total: 0 points

 

Special Rules

• Ill-Omened: 20 points
• Relentless Stalker: (-30) points
• +1 BS Overwatch: 5 points
• Raven's Vengeance: (-30) points
• Gunfighter: (-15) points
• Pistolier: (-5) points

 

Total: (-55) points

 

Total cost: (-40) points

 

Recommend overall cost: 115 points

 

Notes: 

 

• Not sure about this one. Why is Chain Fire made more deadly for Boraeo?

Edited June 7, 2018 by simison

[Kelborn]

What are Labals?

Never heard of them before.

 

Or do you mean Kabals?

Edited June 7, 2018 by Kelborn

[simison]

Hi mate, sorry just a quick post as I'm on the road with work and don't have my full notes.

 

-IIRC it was very explicit that he had seen the fall in one of timeline events of m41 relating to him storing soulfood in a pocket dimension.

- being fair, the story about Labals was the from the guy who took over William King's Ragnar Stories, whose fluff grasp was... Introductory.

- I'll have no problem with not using Drukhari or Dark Eldar, but it is apparebt that Dark eldar is 'true eldar', and Craftworld etc Eldar were intentional leading ascetic lifestyles as an alternative to escape it

- this is a bit I struggled slightly with, but as Slaanesh is all but guaranteed the souls of the eldar when they die, what does Rakarth have to lose?

- Regarding the legion, the strnegth would be akin to removing the concept of emotion from those who fight against chaos - by repressing feelings, or not having those feelings, the primal source of the chaos gods power would be lost, as the ultimate power in the galaxy, that of the emperor and his doctrine of non superstition headed by emotionless soldiers would be able to actively reduce the effect of chaos, rather than having their feelings subverted and corrupted, which empowers chaos.

- that would be a reference to a talk that Morro has with the Sigilitte, similar to how Mortarion gets told he has a role to play

- Again, what does Rakarth have to lose? - I also take it that Belakor wouldn't be in his most obvious form Here he is presented with an opportunity to shift it elsewhere.

- Tbh, I don't know. I thought they were the same, Uber Daemon NotGod gets turned into a glorified trumpeter by Tzeentch, but it has been a while.

 

Re Pelagic Spears: Legacy concept can be gotten rid of thanks to Cumbersome Ignoring on the charge. The latter profile is fine, and the power lance removed.

 

- After painstakinly reading through the entire Dark Eldar timeline, I did find the entry. Rakarth can be used, though this is going to be a Rakarth obsessed with politics and eager to play his part in the games of the nobility. 

- No, the Noble House vs Kabal came straight from the Codex. It's hard canon.

- Sure

- His soul. Rakarth knows Slaanesh hungers for him, so why on Terra would he interact with any daemonic being remotely connected to Slaanesh? Make no mistake, this is a huge violation of perceived lore when it comes to the Dark Eldar. It's one of their extremely few admirable traits and violating it opens up to fire. 

- Ehhhhh, the theory in of itself is sound. I'm just not sure why Morro would ever suspect the Emperor had this plan for him. It's pretty far out of left field. You're referencing a conversation that doesn't exist. Plus, knowing there is a role doesn't suggest what role. 

- Wait, scratch that. Emotionless warriors is a fine anti-Chaos weapon, but how does that protect the Dark Eldar? Their souls are continually being sucked on by Slaanesh, and only their torture is a protection against this soul-death. In this regard, emotionless Drowned are absolutely useless and Rakarth should know that.

- It doesn't matter what form Be'lakor is in, he's still a daemonic being. He can't hide that from Rakarth.

- In that case, we'll drop that since there is no canon evidence for it. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

1 - no worries

2 - I meant the bit about the kabal raid in early heresy years

3 - his soul is already forfeit, though. Slaanesh already claims it when he eventually dies. Nothing changes. If anything, that is even more leverage as it could become a Voodoo Doll if he doesn't do as wished.

4 - do the non Psionic 'Dark eldar' have any noticeable chance of recognising a Daemon, particularly an ultra powerful one, with a talent for Telepathy, who may want to present himself as something other than himself?

5 - the story I'm referring to was Mortarions hatred of psykers bejng used as part of the Emperor's goal to remove the reliance the Imperium had on the Warp via Psykers, and he was a perfect foil to the experiments of the Psyker favouring Primarchs. We never learn whether that was the Sigillite lying for the benefit of Morty's sensibilities and thus keeping him onside, or was the legitimate plan.

- the plan was to have Slaanesh corrupt the Drowned, and thus those or Morro's get, by making them feel things they would otherwise be prevented from doing. In the same way that a fire in a cold climate is going to make more a difference than one in a hot climate.

 

I can see that this isn't really convincing you, so perhaps I need a rethink.

 

The story has revolved around for Be'lakor, Rakarth, and Slaanesh, that I'm loath to remove them from the backstory, but I'm open to working the story together in a new way. I'll be back for a few hours this weekend to get some pen to paper afterwords.

[simison]

In regards to Mortarion, the Webway would have reduced the need for psykers. So, in one sense, Malcador is being honest. 

 

Which makes your suggested plan even more confusing. Morro is deceived into thinking the Emperor wants him and his sons emotionless. Yet, the real plan is to charge them up and have them thrown into Slaanesh's power. The more I think about this plan, the more of a headache I get. The Emperor already has the Soulless Legions as an anti-Chaos weapon. And they still show some form of emotion. Not to mention there should be several examples of Mechanicum elements...

 

Oh good gravy, the Mechanicum Civil War alone is proof enough that emotionless beings have no immunity to Chaos. And that doesn't include any historical instances demonstrating that fact that Morro may be able to study. 

 

I just don't understand why Morro would think any of this is plausible. There's simply no evidence for it. 

 

~~~

 

As for Rakarth, I have a couple of ideas. One, the simplest fix, is to make his involvement completely non-voluntary. He is forced to serve Morro and Be'lakor against his will and escapes the first chance he can get. 

 

Another idea is that Morro, frustrated by the Imperium's tech, uses his forbidden DE channels that he built during his time as Styx's warlord. It is through this that he finds Rakarth and commissions/forces him to make an arm. Rakarth does so and takes advantage of Morro's favor to study and 'improve' the Drowned before he betrays Morro and runs off to Comorragh with a dozen Drowned to win praise and prestige among the DE nobility. It is after this betrayal that Morro finds Be'lakor. 

 

~~~

 

Regardless, I'm tired of this fluff debate holding up the crunch progress. As of right now, the Drowned have one too many units. One needs to be saved for later. Furthermore, at one stage, the Forlorn were supposed to be only on drugs at the onset of the Insurrection. The daemonic possession was to come later.

 

This conflict between different interpretations needs to be resolved in order to figure out the Forlorn's rule sheet. 

 

Finally, Grifft suggests that the Darkest Before Dawn RoW loses the 'forced-to-go-second' and 'no steal initiative' rule since it's not really a limitation. Do either you or Helter approve of this change? 

[simison]

Quick update: Helter has approved of the RoW change.