Ragnar Blackmane by AD-B, aka you finally got me BL

[b1soul]

 

 

 

BL released a brief snippet of the novel. Sons of the Lion won't be pleased...

Guy died but only cuz his opponent escalated beyond the traditional rule

Very true, but of course people will perceive it as "AD-B hates DA's, Blackmane is a Mary Sue!" instead of it actually being a very shameful act committed by someone who should know better, even by the lax standards of his Chapter.

What Blackmane did sounds worthy of execution as a renegade. I am a bit surprised his fellow SW were supportive of his "punch after the bell".

 

Perhaps more context would clarify. It's like running your opponent through because you flew into a rage right after he beat you in a fencing match. Or perhaps the DA ridiculed Ragnar after drawing first blood?

[DarKnight]

 

 

 

BL released a brief snippet of the novel. Sons of the Lion won't be pleased...

Guy died but only cuz his opponent escalated beyond the traditional rule

Very true, but of course people will perceive it as "AD-B hates DA's, Blackmane is a Mary Sue!" instead of it actually being a very shameful act committed by someone who should know better, even by the lax standards of his Chapter.

What Blackmane did sounds worthy of execution as a renegade. I am a bit surprised his fellow SW were supportive of his "punch after the bell".

Perhaps more context would clarify. It's like running your opponent through because you flew into a rage right after he beat you in a fencing match. Or perhaps the DA ridiculed Ragnar after drawing first blood?

Yeah I guess we'll see. I could easily see it being a "We'll handle our own" type of situation.

[Augustus]

Actually it made perfect sense to me.

 

In hockey, baseball, basketball you punch the other team and your team storms off the bench to defend you. Add the fact the DA are hated rivals I see no problem with them hooting and hollaring. They were backing up their brother. I'd believe that afterward they could have some serious repercussions for Ragnar. Especially if and when Grimnar hears about it. But he is a Wolf Lord.

 

I think the characters of the two chapters are perfectly captured. I was surprised the nameless 4th company champion managed to "defeat" Ragnar. I would have had no problem with Ragnar just snapping and removing his head. Ragnar is a 40k big dog. The youngest wolf lord ever. Of course he's probably have trouble controlling himself.

 

I think (besides myself :P) most DA fans are articulate and smart enough to realize that you don't have to be raw raw powerful to be a compelling story line. I'm excited to read the whole thing.

[b1soul]

40k Wolves are generally pretty honorable. I do not think their standards are low...killing ur fellow loyalist opponent because he managed to draw first blood and you got angry...I can't imagine the Wolves brushing that off...unless the DA were massive douches to the SW beforehand

[Loesh]

*Blinks*

 

Wait, Ragnar actually *kills* his opponent?

 

You have my attention sir.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

BL released a brief snippet of the novel. Sons of the Lion won't be pleased...

Guy died but only cuz his opponent escalated beyond the traditional rule

Very true, but of course people will perceive it as "AD-B hates DA's, Blackmane is a Mary Sue!" instead of it actually being a very shameful act committed by someone who should know better, even by the lax standards of his Chapter.

What Blackmane did sounds worthy of execution as a renegade. 

 

Heh. And which one of these Codex-denying Chapters with several instances of fighting each other in the past, and with various secrets of treachery and/or and gene-seed instability hidden from the Adeptus Terra, would ever share that an event like this had happened? Which one would rock up to the doors of Inquisition HQ and report the others for being naughty boys? Would it be the ones who can't forgive themselves for their treachery in the Horus Heresy and have Successor Chapters still Codex-breakingly loyal to the point of still being a Legion? Or would it be the ones that have fought the Inquisition already and are hiding gene-seed corruption to the degree they can occasionally flip out and turn into monsters?

 

In all seriousness, in events like this, no one would ever know. There's no one to pass judgement, and neither Chapter has any reason to - or anything to gain by - telling anyone else. It's a serious deal, no doubt, but in the long scheme of things, it's not close to the most major tension between the two Chapters, even since the Heresy.

 

What criminal cartels / motorcycle gangs / street gangs / mercenary forces / countless groups on every tier of society do to each other is worthy of imprisonment and breaks the law, but they tend to police their own and the justice system never finds out. Space Marines come into conflict with each other on small scales fairly often. Warrior societies and fraternities always have, and always will, especially when they have such divergent beliefs on what's acceptable, honourable, and right. What would be insane is if the wider Imperium ever knew about it, given how isolated and secretive even public Chapters are in terms of their Chapter Cults and actual history. 

 

 

40k Wolves are generally pretty honorable. I do not think their standards are low...killing ur fellow loyalist opponent because he managed to draw first blood and you got angry...I can't imagine the Wolves brushing that off...

 

I can't imagine all of them brushing it off either, true. And the Dark Angels don't strike me as particularly open-minded when it comes to matters of forgiveness. The name they call themselves may give that particular game away. Teehee.

 

It seemed like the kind of event that would make for a good source of a story, though. Especially when you have a character beloved by the Chapter's hierarchy and pitched to achieve amazing things in the future doing something like that. But that's the key: he's a Blood Claw who's been raised very high, very fast. So who forgives him? Who tries to cover for him? Who considers it a disappointment? Who considers it a valuable lesson to learn? Who considers it the last straw? Who thinks the Dark Angels are weaklings? Who thinks they're honourable foes and Ragnar was way out of line? What might he have to do as penance? What enlightenment comes from it? How would Ragnar himself be changed by committing such an act? He's an honourable soul - how would he seek to make amends for it?

 

I like these kinds of questions. I like stories about these kinds of questions.

[aa.logan]

Well, I think I've jut bought it.

 

176 pages though...

[Perrin]

Well, I think I've jut bought it.

 

176 pages though...

 

I've bought it too, didn't see the page count though...

 

£40 for a novella?! So much regret.

[aa.logan]

 

Well, I think I've jut bought it.

 

176 pages though...

 

I've bought it too, didn't see the page count though...

 

£40 for a novella?! So much regret.

 

It has a magnetic box!

 

 

 

 

Magnetic!

 

 

 

You know the content will be great.

[A D-B]

 

Well, I think I've jut bought it.

 

176 pages though...

 

I've bought it too, didn't see the page count though...

 

£40 for a novella?! So much regret.

 

 

Unless they've cut a significant amount from it, it's not a novella. It's about as long as Cadian Blood, and that was three times longer than BL novellas.

[KJB]

It's available now, just ordered mine before the BL site goes KABOOM again

[DarKnight]

Got mine, wish I knew about the express shipping though. Oh well, patience is a virtue.

[Conn Eremon]

Unless they've cut a significant amount from it, it's not a novella. It's about as long as Cadian Blood, and that was three times longer than BL novellas.

I remember you once provided BL's definition of a short to a novella to a novel (and maybe that wasn't just BL's), but to be quite frank, I have my own. Under 200 pages as a novel feels very short, and for a publishing company that differentiates between novels and novellas, that's a novella to me, in all but name.

 

And that goes further. If they say 50 pages is enough to be a novella, all I will see is a fancily named and overpriced short story. If BL is getting this ranking system from some universally accepted definition among publishing companies, that's all well and good. I doubt it, to be honest, because BL does not seem to operate like any other publishing company from the consumer's viewpoint, at the very least. But it doesn't fly with me.

 

I'll get it, just not now. At this point, what I think I am getting is a short novel, with a likely good story from a consistently good author and some light, extra limited edition stuff. These are all things I think are worth purchasing, but not for 65 USD. Not when such things (short novel, author of well renown, special packaging) would normally be 25-30 USD, and it's only the third thing that bumps it from 15-20 USD if hardcover, 5-10 USD if soft. Now, recently I did spend just over 50 USD for a book. It was just over 300 pages, but textbook sized. Had a few pullout maps I'm going to hang on the wall. It had a couple coins done in the style of the setting's currency. Came with a free short (just over 40, oversized pages) that is only going to be published in it.

 

It's one thing to say you're getting more bang for your buck, but we're not getting more bang here.

 

I won't participate further and turn this into a whinefest. Just wanted to voice my disappointment. This isn't a dig against the story itself, I don't think it being a novella makes it inferior to a novel. Nor against AD-B, as he didn't set the price.

[A D-B]

 

Unless they've cut a significant amount from it, it's not a novella. It's about as long as Cadian Blood, and that was three times longer than BL novellas.

I remember you once provided BL's definition of a short to a novella to a novel (and maybe that wasn't just BL's), but to be quite frank, I have my own. Under 200 pages as a novel feels very short, and for a publishing company that differentiates between novels and novellas, that's a novella to me, in all but name.

 

And that goes further. If they say 50 pages is enough to be a novella, all I will see is a fancily named and overpriced short story.

 

Yes and no. You'll note that I don't leap in to argue or defend any of GW's pricing, as it's nothing to do with me, and as collector of various non-essential geekieries I don't have a balanced perspective on what's reasonable and what's not. I'll gladly drop £200 on models I'll never paint, yet the idea of paying that much to get my car fixed leaves me cold and feeling like I've been kicked in the balls. 

 

And when I explain publishing lengths, I do it in word counts. Not pages. 176 pages means nothing to me, because so many books are different sizes with different presentations and different fonts, etc. Raw word count is the only valid statistic, and regarding novel lengths, BL isn't really out of line with the publishing world. Bear in mind that a lot of absolutely classic novels are what you'd consider novellas, even though they're not. 

 

Animal Farm. The Hitch-hikers' Guide to the Galaxy. All Quiet on the Western Front. Slaughterhouse 5. Lord of the Flies. The Catcher in the Rye. Brave New World. 

 

They're not novellas. There's no way around that. They're just not. I appreciate you've got your criteria but given the evidence you may choose to rethink it. Ragnar is about as long as most of those - and longer than several of them - just to grab them as examples. 

 

Hell, even National Novel Writing Month (NaNoWriMo) sets the word count for participants at a minimum of 50,000 words. That's a fairly short novel, but it's still a novel. Otherwise it would be called National Novella Writing Month. 

 

Don't take this as a blanket defence, but rather an explanation. I'm not going to be sad if someone doesn't think it's worth the money, and I'm not going to be offended by it. But it's not a novella.

[Conn Eremon]

Of the examples you gave that I have read or can recall the size of, those are all novellas or short novels, by my definition. And similarly sized, newer works all tend to get priced less than what I would classify as true novels (which at a minimum are not that much bigger), and more like those that are classified as novellas.

 

My definition is based on my experience with size (and by size I don't simply mean page count) and pricing, hence above. If it isn't accurate to the true definitions, fine. It serves for the purpose I use it and created it for, to determine an expected price range. If it's something like this, it should be priced something like that. If not, does the difference warrant it by my standards? No? Pass. Yes? Sold.

 

It's a subjective definition specific to my tasted and expectations, so I don't expect it to be accurate.

[b1soul]

OK...it's a very short novel. Quality could make up for lack of quantity

[A D-B]

Of the examples you gave that I have read or can recall the size of, those are all novellas or short novels, by my definition. And similarly sized, newer works all tend to get priced less than what I would classify as true novels (which at a minimum are not that much bigger), and more like those that are classified as novellas.

 

My definition is based on my experience with size (and by size I don't simply mean page count) and pricing, hence above. If it isn't accurate to the true definitions, fine. It serves for the purpose I use it and created it for, to determine an expected price range. If it's something like this, it should be priced something like that. If not, does the difference warrant it by my standards? No? Pass. Yes? Sold.

 

It's a subjective definition specific to my tasted and expectations, so I don't expect it to be accurate.

 

You're mixing up judgement calls on value for money with actual definitions of real things. 

 

"Something that size isn't worth it for me" = I'll do nothing but high-five you as a fellow frater. Plenty of folks have said that, and I don't even blink. It's all good. I've said it myself: it's a short novel, equal to Cadian Blood and a bunch of others.

 

But if we can just go into any conversation and say "By my definition, this noun actually means something else", we may be sort of doomed in terms of communication. Words, like, already have meanings. "This word means something else by my definition" makes as little sense as saying "By my definition, movies are at least two hours long." We know that's not true. It doesn't matter what my definition is: plenty of movies are 90 minutes long. To say otherwise is wrong, and nothing to do with value for money.

 

I'm not arguing that it's worth it for everyone, or trying to convince you it's necessary for continued breathing. But if someone points out a colour is blue, I'm not going to keep saying  "Well, by my definition it's actually green." I'll say "Oh, I getcha. I wouldn't pay that much money for anything blue, though. I like red stuff." 

 

And we'd part as friends, wishing upon the very same stars each night, dreaming of what might've been.

[Scribe]

Back on topic....I'm afraid to pull the trigger.

 

Not because I wont enjoy it.

Not because of the cost of the book.

 

I'm afraid because every one of your books has had me start a new army (but I never finish) and thats the hidden cost to an ADB book.

 

Wolves - I've had a nagging desire to build some, for a long time.

DA - Already had started, sold a bunch of boxes off some time ago.

Flesh Tearers - Had an army, HAVE Blood Angel's in boxes still.

Black Legion - I started those again after Talon. :p

 

Its far more than a book to me, its a gateway drug to $1000 in models...

[Perrin]

 

Of the examples you gave that I have read or can recall the size of, those are all novellas or short novels, by my definition. And similarly sized, newer works all tend to get priced less than what I would classify as true novels (which at a minimum are not that much bigger), and more like those that are classified as novellas.

 

My definition is based on my experience with size (and by size I don't simply mean page count) and pricing, hence above. If it isn't accurate to the true definitions, fine. It serves for the purpose I use it and created it for, to determine an expected price range. If it's something like this, it should be priced something like that. If not, does the difference warrant it by my standards? No? Pass. Yes? Sold.

 

It's a subjective definition specific to my tasted and expectations, so I don't expect it to be accurate.

 

You're mixing up judgement calls on value for money with actual definitions of real things. 

 

"Something that size isn't worth it for me" = I'll do nothing but high-five you as a fellow frater. Plenty of folks have said that, and I don't even blink. It's all good. I've said it myself: it's a short novel, equal to Cadian Blood and a bunch of others.

 

But if we can just go into any conversation and say "By my definition, this noun actually means something else", we may be sort of doomed in terms of communication. Words, like, already have meanings. "This word means something else by my definition" makes as little sense as saying "By my definition, movies are at least two hours long." We know that's not true. It doesn't matter what my definition is: plenty of movies are 90 minutes long. To say otherwise is wrong, and nothing to do with value for money.

 

I'm not arguing that it's worth it for everyone, or trying to convince you it's necessary for continued breathing. But if someone points out a colour is blue, I'm not going to keep saying  "Well, by my definition it's actually green." I'll say "Oh, I getcha. I wouldn't pay that much money for anything blue, though. I like red stuff." 

 

And we'd part as friends, wishing upon the very same stars each night, dreaming of what might've been.

 

 

Just to clarify, I have absolutely no qualms with the quality. Obviously I haven't read it yet but based on experience it's going to be awesome.

 

The sense of being violated (and not in a good way) that I got from realising that it was a novella - or a short novel if you like - is that Talon of Horus FE was £40, which was not only longer, but also First Edition. We have two things there, both the same in quality of content, but one is longer, and they're the same price.

 

I appreciate that BL pricing or marketing isn't anything to do with you, and this really isn't a criticism of your work. It's a criticism of how whack BL have become in the last few years.

 

 

 

EDIT: That said, I am very much looking forward to it, even if it does mean I'll have to try to develop the ability to photosynthesise in lieu of food this week.

[Visitor13]

I see the Wolves continue their tradition of cheap shotting challenging opponents, I approve* and praise A D-B's remark about the Dark Angels not being the forgiving type.

 

* no sarcasm intended, the Ultras and their successors the Brady Bunch can go frak themselves, inter-chapter interactions should be a very nasty business.

[Kol Saresk]

I see the Wolves continue their tradition of cheap shotting challenging opponents, I approve* and praise A D-B's remark about the Dark Angels not being the forgiving type.

 

* no sarcasm intended, the Ultras and their successors the Brady Bunch can go frak themselves, inter-chapter interactions should be a very nasty business.

You must not really like the Blood Angels then since the only ones who don't play ball in that court are the Flesh Tearers.

[Visitor13]

 

I see the Wolves continue their tradition of cheap shotting challenging opponents, I approve* and praise A D-B's remark about the Dark Angels not being the forgiving type.

 

* no sarcasm intended, the Ultras and their successors the Brady Bunch can go frak themselves, inter-chapter interactions should be a very nasty business.

You must not really like the Blood Angels then since the only ones who don't play ball in that court are the Flesh Tearers.

 

You're right, I'm not a big fan. There's only a handful of chapters I do like, actually.

[Captain_Loken]

EBooks are so great.

[Scribe]

'Fewer than 500 left.'

[Remus Ventanus.]

Can we not argue with ADB on what a novel is ans isnt....i think he knows best