Ragnar Blackmane by AD-B, aka you finally got me BL

[Loesh]

Sounds like Drizzit Do'urden syndrome.

 

Though honestly that makes me want to read Prospero Burns Loken, since it indicates the opposite, that the wolves are in fact flawed if they are capable of child murder.

 

Flaws make interesting characters, as long as you remember they are flaws and not benefits in the guise of flaws.

[tgjensen]

They're Space Marines. Of course they are capable of killing children. *All* legions are. They are routinely ordered to raze cities, worlds and cultures - which is exactly what the Space Wolves were up to at Prospero. If they get squeamish at the thought of killing "innocent children", then they aren't fit for purpose.

[b1soul]

Compared to most other HH books...PB is well written

 

Horus Rising

Legion

ATS

PB

First Heretic

Know No Fear

Betrayer

Unremembered Empire

Scars

 

These are the only HH books I could get through

I expected a bit more from UE...but it's still miles ahead of garbage like Fear to Tread

[Loesh]

Really? You didn't like Fulgrim? I thought the book was flawed, but far from bad.

 

Then again, i'm obviously biased.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Prospero Burns is an excellent look into how the Wolves like themselves to appear in 30k. 

I wouldnt say it was an accurate book on their actual appearance, but  

the actions of Tra are expressly done to present themselves to what they (and many others) believe to be a spy in their midst

So I wouldnt call it accurate as a view of the entire Legion, but an interesting enough look.

 

 

 

WLK

[Dantay VI]

The Space Wolves didn't go too far.

 

The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus in. I have heard mention several times, but need to locate the source, that Horus changed the orders and ordered the razing of Prospero. The idea being to rid himself of the Wolves as an effective fighting force and to do the same to the Thousand Sons, should they stay loyal after Magnus discovers Horus' plans. Or as a way to get the Thousand Sons to join with him after being prosecuted so harshly by the Wolves.

 

I do not hear anybody crying foul about how the World Eaters butcher entire populations or the complaining about the actions of the Night Lords

 

As for the wulfen. yes it is a curse/ You have allowed the animal to slip free and can now no longer reason as a person. You are now feral, outside your brotherhood, as likely to attack friend or foe. A disparate band you are only going to find peace in death, but the animal within will not allow that to happen as it wants to live... Your only hope is glorious death in battle or a slow death descending into madness.

To the wider Imperium you are at best an aberration/freak/mutant and at worst a blasphemous abomination which by your discovery could lead to the death of your brothers and your legion.

 

All because of a slip in self control.

 

That doesn't sound like a curse to you?

 

Also, what WLK said about appearances :)

 

This is veering well off-topic I think, the only on-topic part is still talking about Space Wolves even if it is from another millennia. I suggest we go back to the grim-dark of 40K and discuss the book in the title.

 

I haven't bought the book and I haven't read it. I am in the middle of the sea, so I cannot download the extract and read it. Company computers dagnammit!

I would however like to hear some peoples opinions on the book, itself!

Not a chapter by chapter synopsis, but an overall feel for the story, is it enjoyable, is it taking Ragnar and the Wolves in new directions, does it answer or generate more questions about the Wolves, are there new insights, did it make the way you view a chapter differently?

[Loesh]

The Space Wolves didn't go too far.

 

 

I do not hear anybody crying foul about how the World Eaters butcher entire populations or the complaining about the actions of the Night Lords

 

 

I had to stop here. With all due respect, absolutely no one is enamoured with either Legions tactics as being good, they simply find the army cool.

 

There's few(No) ways to frame child murder in a positive light, unless you're trying to kill the Celestial Plot Device Kid at the end of Mass Effect 3.

 

Regarding the Wulfen, it was more the fact that we rarely see the Curse of the Wulfen actually doing anything...bad, it tends to be a net positive. Contrast with the Blood Angels, who suffer dearly for the Black Rage. I would actually like to see the Space Wolf version of 'Honours End' where the curse going out of control leads to hundreds of needless Space Marine deaths. It's kinda what Ragnar seems to be doing on a smaller scale, as in this book he doesn't seem to have much self control(Presumably) due to the Curse.

 

The very worst it seems to do is prevent successor chapters after the Battle of the Fang, but fluff wise it doesn't seem to hinder them that much if at all. With so many companies, they still appear quite numerous.

[Dantay VI]

I 100% agree, child murder can never be framed in a positive light. It cannot and should not ever be shown in a positive light. 

 

And what I mean by not going too far, as you seem to have removed some of what I said, is they carried out the orders they were given.

 

It was more in regards to: 

 

 

I agree with you Scribe.  Only read it if you want a terrible side to the Space Wolves, and if you're into the Space Wolves turning evil and killing innocent children.  Regardless of what Magnus did, they went too far.

 

 

The Wolves, didn't turn evil, and unless I missed a specific part I do not recall them killing children, but if Loken can provide the source to this then I will stand corrected.

 

In war, no matter how much people try to make it clean, there are always collateral casualties. The blitz. The night time bombings of cities like Cologne I think where a city was effectively levelled. Even today with "Smart bombs". Those not doing the fighting still get hurt or die. 

 

Like I said the Wolves followed orders.

 

Magnus broke his promise over the use of sorcery and did it blatantly. Russ and his legion were sent to bring him to Terra. Along the way the orders were subverted.

Russ made the mistake of trying to use the spy to talk to Magnus (bad intel) to avoid a war or at least warn him of what was coming.

Regardless. Magnus knew the Wolves were coming and could have saved the population of Prospero. The Thousand Sons were told to stand down by Magnus, but disobeyed orders and exacerbated te situation by not doing as they were told.

The Wolves prosecuted their orders.

 

Both the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves suffered horrific losses and Horus benefited. 

 

Its part of the mythos of the 40K universe, you aren't really supposed to see the curse, the same as you are not supposed to see the flaws in the Blood Angels for example... Both hide it and it is usually only ever seen on the battlefield where the berserk fury is a boon.

I very much doubt that Black Library would write a werewolf story about the Space Wolves going loco, as it would then create a train wreck in the 40K timeline and you put GW in the position of completely changing the 40K universe. Same as if they wrote a vampires run amok story of the Blood Angels. It is better hinted at than blatantly shown.

 

Or we could end up in some futuristic Team Jacob vs Team Edward scenario :D

 

As for mass wulfen. Read the 6th book in the Space Wolf series, the Thousand Sons almost make the whole Space Wolves chapter turn wulfen.

 

To try and lighten the mood, I think I found what caused it all...... 

 

http://www.wobblymodelsyndrome.com/comic-202.html

 

http://www.wobblymodelsyndrome.com/comic-7.html

 

http://www.wobblymodelsyndrome.com/comic-178.html

[Loesh]

I 100% agree, child murder can never be framed in a positive light. 

 

And what I mean by not going too far, as you seem to have removed some of what I said, is they carried out the orders they were given.

 

It was more in regards to: 

 

 

I agree with you Scribe.  Only read it if you want a terrible side to the Space Wolves, and if you're into the Space Wolves turning evil and killing innocent children.  Regardless of what Magnus did, they went too far.

 

 

The Wolves, didn't turn evil, and unless I missed a specific part I do not recall them killing children, but if Loken can provide the source to this then I will stand corrected.

 

In war, no matter how much people try to make it clean, there are always collateral casualties. The blitz. The night time bombings of cities like Cologne I think where a city was effectively levelled. Even today with "Smart bombs". Those not doing the fighting still get hurt or die. 

 

Like I said the Wolves followed orders.

 

Magnus broke his promise over the use of sorcery and did it blatantly. Russ and his legion were sent to bring him to Terra. Along the way the orders were subverted.

Russ made the mistake of trying to use the spy to talk to Magnus (bad intel) to avoid a war or at least warn him of what was coming.

Regardless. Magnus knew the Wolves were coming and could have saved the population of Prospero. The Thousand Sons were told to stand down by Magnus, but disobeyed orders and exacerbated te situation by not doing as they were told.

The Wolves prosecuted their orders.

 

Both the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves suffered horrific losses and Horus benefited. 

 

Well, they melted the planets surface. Tizca was the only population center that survived, it stands to reason that hundreds, if not thousands of children died.

 

And honestly? I agree that the Space Wolves are evil, in the same capacity that every single Legion is evil. They followed an order handed down by the father(Apparently) with little question that called for a lot of civilian deaths and did so even before the Thousand Sons opted to defend themselves, they took no answer as a confirmation of Magnus not accepting Russ's terms and a lot of folks died for it.. No one in Warhammer 40k is a respectable, decent person imo save for the nameless, countless people we don't see. They only try to be in the unending horror of the universe they have been thrust into.

[Dantay VI]

I believe Tizca was the only major population centre on Prospero, as the Psyk-neuins had killed off most others and Magnus lived in the only fastness of human population left on the planet.

 

I do agree that no legion is unblemished by atrocities caused, just some revel in it more than others. But at least Russ tried to avert catastrophe by sending a warning to Magnus of what was to come.

 

Not wanting to be a Space Wolf fanboy and derail tings much further, but what about the actions of the Space Wolves in "The Emperors Gift"?

 

So what makes the Night Lords and World Eaters cool, and the Space Wolves not, if it isn't what they are and what they do, as determined by their fluff?

[Loesh]

I believe Tizca was the only major population centre on Prospero, as the Psyk-neuins had killed off most others and Magnus lived in the only fastness of human population left on the planet.

 

I do agree that no legion is unblemished by atrocities caused, just some revel in it more than others. But at least Russ tried to avert catastrophe by sending a warning to Magnus of what was to come.

 

Not wanting to be a Space Wolf fanboy and derail tings much further, but what about the actions of the Space Wolves in "The Emperors Gift"?

 

So what makes the Night Lords and World Eaters cool, and the Space Wolves not, if it isn't what they are and what they do, as determined by their fluff?

 

I never said the Space Wolves weren't cool(They wouldn't have one of the biggest fanbases if they weren't.) but merely that it's more noteworthy when a loyalist deviates from morality then a traitor. We already know how and why the World Eaters are flawed(And those flaws add character to them.) but instances of it in loyalist factions are more rare, not for any bias but rather because they are supposed to be 'heroic' and only very recently was it turned to shades of grey.

 

I'm *fairly* certain there were more, possibly a lot more, population centers on Prospero then Tizca, even if they were only minor I would say melting the planets surface from orbit and boiling away the seas was a tad reprehensible.  That's to say nothing of intent, because they were going to melt Tizca too before the barrier came up.

 

I wouldn't know much about the Emperors Gift because i'v never read it, was it worse?

[Dantay VI]

I Assume the shades of grey comes from the new Ragnar novel?

 

Emperors Gift is set around the first war of Armageddon. Where the Wolves, the Guard and the Grey Knights defeat Angron and his Khornate hosts, then the Wolves stand up to the Inquisition, who try to kill the entire population of the planet after the battle.

 

It all goes a bit awry.

 

It is also another A D-B book and pretty enjoyable.

 

What I believe Prospero Burns, is trying to show is that the Wolves are loyal to the Imperium even to the point of doing the unimaginable, they do not shirk their responsibilities even when they are faced with doing something as heinous as they had to. Other legions may have balked, questioned or even refused. Some of the others would have taken the opportunity to enjoy what they were being asked to do. The Wolves didn't... They just did it.

 

It was the Wolves serving a warning, that they will do whatever is necessary to protect the imperium.

 

Maybe some Wolves did enjoy the fight and hated the Sons enough to like what they were doing, but we know for Russ it was a hard task which he did not enjoy. He would not have sent warning otherwise...

 

I reckon we need to agree to agree on some points and disagree on others...

 

Maybe the Wolves need a bit more fleshing out to make them more "relate-able" rather than the heroic mjod swilling wolf riding dragon slaying vikings in space caricature some perceive them to be.

[Loesh]

I Assume the shades of grey comes from the new Ragnar novel?

 

Emperors Gift is set around the first war of Armageddon. Where the Wolves, the Guard and the Grey Knights defeat Angron and his Khornate hosts, then the Wolves stand up to the Inquisition, who try to kill the entire population of the planet after the battle.

 

It all goes a bit awry.

 

It is also another A D-B book and pretty enjoyable.

 

What I believe Prospero Burns, is trying to show is that the Wolves are loyal to the Imperium even to the point of doing the unimaginable, they do not shirk their responsibilities even when they are faced with doing something as heinous as they had to. Other legions may have balked, questioned or even refused. Some of the others would have taken the opportunity to enjoy what they were being asked to do. The Wolves didn't... They just did it.

 

It was the Wolves serving a warning, that they will do whatever is necessary to protect the imperium.

 

Maybe some Wolves did enjoy the fight and hated the Sons enough to like what they were doing, but we know for Russ it was a hard task which he did not enjoy. He would not have sent warning otherwise...

 

I reckon we need to agree to agree on some points and disagree on others...

 

Maybe the Wolves need a bit more fleshing out to make them more "relate-able" rather than the heroic mjod swilling wolf riding dragon slaying vikings in space caricature some perceive them to be.

 

Ah yeah now I remember the incident, yeah the Wolves were pretty commendable for their actions in the Emperors Gift. Don't get me wrong, I might consider them evil but they are....closer....? to good then most, i'd probably clock them as a little under the Salamanders in that department. 

 

Bringing up their loyalty is rather interesting, because in the same way it preserved them from treachery, it's also arguably what damns them as a Legion spiritually. Also: This book seems to go a long way towards making them relatable, what little i'v seen from Ragnar is very...human...in a way that was previously only held by Uriel. It DOES show shades of grey too, but it also shows the good side of the wolves as well as the bad(Honors End paints the Space Wolves in a very positive light.) and in my opinion we need more books like this for them.

 

Mind you, this is from my experience with the excerpt and what i'v heard about it, I haven't actually gone through it.

[Dantay VI]

In the same way which books like Fulgrim made the Emperors Children more relatable.

 

Most people from a purely 40K perspective would just think of them as hedonistic, but by looking at them from the beginning you can see their origins and how far and how tragically they have fallen by trying to grasp the unattainable.

[Loesh]

In the same way which books like Fulgrim made the Emperors Children more relatable.

 

Most people from a purely 40K perspective would just think of them as hedonistic, but by looking at them from the beginning you can see their origins and how far and how tragically they have fallen by trying to grasp the unattainable.

 

Quite, I sort of view it as a double edged sword. There are no characters in Warhammer i'd consider good, but there's none that i'd consider a complete monster like...say....Skull Face in another franchise(Man, I should buy the Phantom Pain.)

[A D-B]

Prospero Burns is an excellent look into how the Wolves like themselves to appear in 30k. 

 

I wouldnt say it was an accurate book on their actual appearance, but  

the actions of Tra are expressly done to present themselves to what they (and many others) believe to be a spy in their midst

So I wouldnt call it accurate as a view of the entire Legion, but an interesting enough look.

 

 

 

WLK

 

Beautifully put. A lot of people (I'd argue the majority, actually) miss that. And it's a vital point.

 

But it's easy and natural to miss it. There's a certain degree of expectation from the readership that when they get a novel on a faction they like, it will give them information as well as be entertaining. (On a related note, you can see from reviews and forum chatter that this is a spectrum; from the people that read stuff almost entirely for lore to the people that prefer a balance of setting exploration, characterisation, and storyline.) So it's easy to see why in-universe viewpoints are often taken as The Truth. Prospero Burns is likely the most famous example of it, because it was about the most popular Space Marines, one of the most famous and exciting events in the Heresy, and made several direct thrusts that elevated the Wolves above the other Legions in terms of capability and competence.

 

Naturally, that saw some vicious defending in the face of balance and countering, and it was difficult at times for some folks to see that it was what the Wolves presented of themselves while being infiltrated (as well as marketing, of course). 

 

But something that always sticks with me is the dichotomy between the IP literally being designed to be explored by different people with different lenses into it, and the notion of things occasionally still being "wrong". So often I'll see people discussing or arguing conflicting interpretations of the lore, seeing parity or alignment between them, and I think that's a bit of a shame since the minor contradictions are kind of the point. Dates being different from one accounting to the next. One author seeing a faction one way, and another seeing it in another light completely. That kind of thing. It would be a much different setting if everyone was literally bound to what came before them, and one person's voice for a faction became unrivalled and unchallenged.

 

Which is doubly interesting, because sometimes - behind the scenes - there are moments when the continuity process does say "But this, right here, is dead wrong. Don't do that again." Not the kind of thing that happens as much in the last couple of years with the Heresy's continuity being firmed up in and out of meetings, and not something that happens in 40K much at all because the galaxy is so much bigger and more varied in terms of what's happening, where it's happening, and who's involved - but it does happen. Unfortunately, it looks the same externally, but no system is perfect. Star Wars continuity (among many others) has been ruthlessly managed in the EU to omit mistakes, yet there are still hundreds of errors. I'd rather keep the ability to keep reinterpreting the lore through individual authors' lenses and have a few mistakes slip into the mix, rather than just have the mistakes anyway.

 

EDIT: And, much more common than any error, is the fact that something just comes up properly for the first time, to be actually developed or dragged into the light, and may end up conflicting with previous subtle/minor mentions. As an example (and one I can actually give, rather than playing coy in the above paragraphs about mistakes), I'm getting some of these in Master of Mankind, regarding the Custodians. They've had a few conflicting mentions in the lore, from them being somewhere between a primarch and a Space Marine in terms of capability, to the mention in 'Blood Games' where Custodians and Space Marines were about equal. Well, one of those is true, and one isn't. It's the kind of thing that various authors and designers and IP folks have actually discussed in detail since that brief mention or two at the start of the series, and now has to conflict with one mention or the other.

 

That's inevitable in any evolving setting, though. To criticise that is unrealistic at best, and shows a pretty stark lack of understanding of the scale of the licence - indeed, of any licence where these continuity shifts occur.

[Karthak]

Prospero Burns is an excellent look into how the Wolves like themselves to appear in 30k. 

 

I wouldnt say it was an accurate book on their actual appearance, but  

the actions of Tra are expressly done to present themselves to what they (and many others) believe to be a spy in their midst

So I wouldnt call it accurate as a view of the entire Legion, but an interesting enough look.

 

 

 

WLK

MUTHA&¤%". That never occurred to me. Goddamn, now I'll have to reread the whole book with this in mind.

[Marshal Rohr]

WLK is wise.

 

 

Space Wolf1: we think he is a spy, what should we do?

Space Wolf2: be as scary as possible.

[Knight of the Raven]

I've not read either of the two Prospero: the Burninating books, but doesn't Russ beg Magnus to surrender before violence is necessary through Hawser? And it fell on deaf ears because he was in fact spying for Horus? It that's true, few people mention it when they argue against Space Wolves or their primarch.

 

As for following orders, didn't Angron have a quote about that? I've tried to find it but my google-fu proved unworthy.

 

More on the topic of A D-B's books, I need him to write about sisters of battle. Even if they all die horribly and hopelessly at the end. I NEEDZ IT.

[Scribe]

All the loyalists are wonderfully hypocritical. The only true speaker is Angron, which is a beautifully comical turn of events.

[Loesh]

Angron is blunt, his barbarism lends him a air of truth and wisdom where the social structures of the Imperium would cloud peoples words and deeds.

 

Yet at the same time, Angron has problems like everyone else. For all his truth, he did inflict the same fate on his sons that tormented him, in many ways he's the architect of his own failings more then most Primarchs.

[b1soul]

I like the idea of the SW having a self-appointed role or image they market to outsiders.

 

I don't like the SW are literally "anti-Astartes executioners designed to be even more bad arse than the other legions" idea

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I've not read either of the two Prospero: the Burninating books, but doesn't Russ beg Magnus to surrender before violence is necessary through Hawser? And it fell on deaf ears because he was in fact spying for Horus? It that's true, few people mention it when they argue against Space Wolves or their primarch.

 

As for following orders, didn't Angron have a quote about that? I've tried to find it but my google-fu proved unworthy.

 

More on the topic of A D-B's books, I need him to write about sisters of battle. Even if they all die horribly and hopelessly at the end. I NEEDZ IT.

 

 

On the way to Prospero, Russ begs Magnus through Hawser to surrender peacefully. Russ states that Magnus nor his Legion will survive the Wolf attack, and he does not wish to bring violence on his brother...but will if he has to.

 

The plea falls on deaf ears as Hawser is a puppet of the Chaos gods, rather than any of the Primarchs.

 

I've mentioned that information in the usual arguments that spring up around the 30k Space Wolves, but some people wont let anything like new information change their views.

And with a forum name like Wolf Lord Kieran, it takes around 3 seconds for people to state that Im simply bias

 

The quote from Khârn the Betrayer about the Space Wolves: Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer.

 

 

And I would be lying if I said I didnt smile from A D-B liking my post, then get damn close to squeeing when he quoted it and called it "Beautifully put"

 

 

WLK

[Firepower]

All the loyalists are wonderfully hypocritical. The only true speaker is Angron, which is a beautifully comical turn of events.

Who better to see the truth of a brutal regime than a victim of one?

Granted, a number of the Primarchs started out on planets where they found themselves part of a subjugated group, but Angron never had the catharsis of victory's or defeat's closure. Even after leaving the planet, he was still effectively their slave, without the freedom he'd earn by dying in the revolution or successfully overthrowing the regime. Hardly a revelatory statement I know, but still, an awesome character hook. Speaking of, I know the question is brought up here and there, but is there ever actually a reason given for the Emperor leaving the slave army to die, rather than lending a hand?

Despite (and partly because of) the fact that his brain is rapidly turning to mush, I think he's one of the most respectable characters in the IP. Until he goes all Turbo Demon at least.

Anyway, yeah, Ragnar and stuff...

[Loesh]

All the loyalists are wonderfully hypocritical. The only true speaker is Angron, which is a beautifully comical turn of events.

Who better to see the truth of a brutal regime than a victim of one?

Granted, a number of the Primarchs started out on planets where they found themselves part of a subjugated group, but Angron never had the catharsis of victory's or defeat's closure. Even after leaving the planet, he was still effectively their slave, without the freedom he'd earn by dying in the revolution or successfully overthrowing the regime. Speaking of, I know the question is brought up here and there, but is there ever actually a reason given for the Emperor leaving the slave army to die, rather than lending a hand?

Despite (and partly because of) the fact that his brain is rapidly turning to mush, I think he's one of the most respectable characters in the IP. Until he goes all Turbo Demon at least.

Anyway, yeah, Ragnar and stuff...

I'm actually of the hard opposite opinion. I recognize Angron went through some , but at the same it's knowing that he did which makes him the least respected Primarch to me.

He went through horrible and awful torment, but he maintains that torment made him stronger while at the same time fighting against it. He recognizes and hates tyranny, but can't see that he himself is a tyrant that's killing his own legion. He speaks more truth then anyone in the setting, but he doesn't speak the truth when it matters most....when it's about himself. He is the man who can see the most, and yet he is the most blind.

It's what makes him tragic, I wouldn't say I hate him for it, but i was raised to believe introspection is the most important thing a person can have. Ultimately, Angron has the least introspection of any of the Primarchs, because he blames his past, blames the Emperor, and blames the very Nails he implants in his Legion for his pain.