Ragnar Blackmane by AD-B, aka you finally got me BL

[Loesh]

That...that is certainly different. I would even go as far as saying somewhat ignorant of the Wolves culture.

for example, from your description:

-I find it hard to believe that a Wolf force, tasked or obsessed with hunting down Ahriman, would not include a Wolf Priest. One of a Wolf Priest's central roles is to curb the excessive nature of the pack and to keep an eye on possible corruption. Through science and saga, they heal the warrior spirit of their charges.

-The idea of a "gaunt and wasted" Rune Priest just boggles my mind, especially with the additional mutations described. The culture of the Wolves as described overall has an ironic abhorrence to further mutation on mortals, let alone actual Astartes.

As these alterations or oddities come from a single author, I think this is another victim of "my story, my rules" that used to be so prevalent in the Black Library. It pretty much goes against what has been established on the Wolves from an a collection of authors.

I do like your theory on the CotW, and if I was told "this is fact" could accept it.

WLK

Maybe this author has the only portrayal that's right?

Like everything in Warhammer lore, you can take it or leave it. But it doesn't mean he's wrong per say, or that this particular group of wolves haven't diverged from the norm. Also: It's John French, I tend to believe he has a pretty solid grasp on Warhammer lore.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That...that is certainly different. I would even go as far as saying somewhat ignorant of the Wolves culture.

for example, from your description:

-I find it hard to believe that a Wolf force, tasked or obsessed with hunting down Ahriman, would not include a Wolf Priest. One of a Wolf Priest's central roles is to curb the excessive nature of the pack and to keep an eye on possible corruption. Through science and saga, they heal the warrior spirit of their charges.

-The idea of a "gaunt and wasted" Rune Priest just boggles my mind, especially with the additional mutations described. The culture of the Wolves as described overall has an ironic abhorrence to further mutation on mortals, let alone actual Astartes.

As these alterations or oddities come from a single author, I think this is another victim of "my story, my rules" that used to be so prevalent in the Black Library. It pretty much goes against what has been established on the Wolves from an a collection of authors.

I do like your theory on the CotW, and if I was told "this is fact" could accept it.

WLK

Maybe this author has the only portrayal that's right?

Like everything in Warhammer lore, you can take it or leave it. But it doesn't mean he's wrong per say, or that this particular group of wolves haven't diverged from the norm. Also: It's John French, I tend to believe he has a pretty solid grasp on Warhammer lore.

There is diverging from everything previously established, and then simply ignoring it for your story.

One example that always frustrates me is the hum described by A D-B's Raven Guard (and nearly every one of his Marines) wearing power armor to the Raven Guard ninjas with jump packs Graham McNeill.

Abnett, my upper tier of the BL trilogy, has instances where his presented material goes against already established lore.

SO yea, the "take it or leave it" solution is apparently the only one that works. I fear that the BL is may get as bad as Marvel Comics with establishing character identities.

WLK

[Loesh]

Here's the thing though, Warhammer doesn't really have....established lore. It has core parts of the universe that are set in the most stone of stones, but by and large it's malleable. That's not to say we should start ripping stuff out of Rogue Trader and call it canon, but there's never been very much about 40k that's solid.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Here's the thing though, Warhammer doesn't really have....established lore. It has core parts of the universe that are set in the most stone of stones, but by and large it's malleable. That's not to say we should start ripping stuff out of Rogue Trader and call it canon, but there's never been very much about 40k that's solid.

 

Thats one way of saying more plot holes than a Moffat written Doctor Who episode.

 

WLK

[Loesh]

Pfff, have you ever played World of Warcraft before?

 

Compared to the lore at points in that setting, Warhammer has lore as well constructed as the great wall of China. Occasionally the mongols break through, but by and large it's consistent and strong. I would  struggle to find an IP with better built background material.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Pfff, have you ever played World of Warcraft before?

 

Compared to the lore at points in that setting, Warhammer has lore as well constructed as the great wall of China. Occasionally the mongols break through, but by and large it's consistent and strong. I would  struggle to find an IP with better built background material.

 

Star Wars Expanded Universe was largely amazing. 

It had some glaring errors, but when I consider the scale of the series it was easy to understand.

 

WLK

and no World of Warcraft for me. I have an somewhat intense gaming style (15k of wolves...and counting) so I rarely pick up new hobbies.

 

WLK

[Loesh]

Fair enough, and yeah the Star Wars expanded universe is pretty cool, though the franchise as a whole has seen better days.

 

Anyway, getting off topic. I'd say John French's take on it is still more divergent then outright ignoring. Outright ignoring is, to me, the likes of C.S Goto.

[Kol Saresk]

That...that is certainly different. I would even go as far as saying somewhat ignorant of the Wolves culture.

 

 

 

for example, from your description:

-I find it hard to believe that a Wolf force, tasked or obsessed with hunting down Ahriman, would not include a Wolf Priest. One of a Wolf Priest's central roles is to curb the excessive nature of the pack and to keep an eye on possible corruption. Through science and saga, they heal the warrior spirit of their charges.

-The idea of a "gaunt and wasted" Rune Priest just boggles my mind, especially with the additional mutations described. The culture of the Wolves as described overall has an ironic abhorrence to further mutation on mortals, let alone actual Astartes.

 

 

As these alterations or oddities come from a single author, I think this is another victim of "my story, my rules" that used to be so prevalent in the Black Library. It pretty much goes against what has been established on the Wolves from an a collection of authors.

 

I do like your theory on the CotW, and if I was told "this is fact" could accept it.

 

WLK

Here's the thing:

 

1.)You're assuming that there was never a Wolf Priest. Now, there wasn't one mentioned in the story, but that doesn't mean that he didn't exist at one time. Or that he was also being corrupted and so was misled into believing that it would be worth the cost so long as they succeeded.

 

2.)These aren't 40K Wolves, they're Fenryka who split off from the 13th Great Company. Their atmor is mismatched and they don't even have their original ships; they're using a ragtag fleet of commandeered vessels that the Iron Priests are barely keeping space worthy. They are given an air of desperation. They are no longer the proud warriors who burned Prospero to the ground. They've been on the hunt for too long and it does not help that their one method of tracking their prey has become an unwitting tool of a Tzeentch Daemon Primarch. At some point these Wolves made a conscious choice that the end will justify the means and so while they worry about their souls and they believe they will be damned at the journey's end, they still continue with the hunt because they are only concerned with it succeeding. So much to the point that they are willing to attack fellow Loyalist Marines and even the Inquisition.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

I can only draw conclusions from the information provided.

Once the book is released in a less expensive format I'll be thrilled to pick it up and get every single detail.

 

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

Sorcerer and Exile are already in their less-expensive formats. Unchanged and Exodus are the newly released ones and do not feature the Wolves.

 

And yeah, it's sort of my fault for not giving the complete picture.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Sorcerer and Exile are already in their less-expensive formats. Unchanged and Exodus are the newly released ones and do not feature the Wolves.

 

And yeah, it's sort of my fault for not giving the complete picture.

 

I meant the Ragnar book, I could have more clear as well

 

I have the Ahriman books on my list of things to read, but just havent gotten that far down the list yet. Since I know they have Wolves in atleast supporting roles, i may bump them up.

 

WLK

[A D-B]

If people can believe the contradictory notions against previous background lore that there are no wolves on Fenris, and that Bjorn's hand was cut off by a human after all rather than Valdor, and that a lot of their barbarism is essentially feigned to deceive their enemies...

 

...it's hardly a stretch to see that "resistance" (real or imagined in-universe) can only go so far when it comes to Chaos. These are Space Wolves literally living inside Hell. They're going to feel a rise in temperature around all that fire. Choice and culture doesn't come into it.

 

You don't enter the Eye of Terror - a realm where your thoughts become reality and your guilts, fears, and hatreds manifest on your flesh - and remain wholly unchanged.

[Marshal Rohr]

If people can believe the contradictory notions against previous background lore that there are no wolves on Fenris, and that Bjorn's hand was cut off by a human after all rather than Valdor, and that a lot of their barbarism is essentially feigned to deceive their enemies...

 

...it's hardly a stretch to see that "resistance" (real or imagined in-universe) can only go so far when it comes to Chaos. These are Space Wolves literally living inside Hell. They're going to feel a rise in temperature around all that fire. Choice and culture doesn't come into it.

 

You don't enter the Eye of Terror - a realm where your thoughts become reality and your guilts, fears, and hatreds manifest on your flesh - and remain wholly unchanged.

Why anyone would follow something so distasteful is beyond comprehension. Why don't people try and leave?

[Loesh]

 

If people can believe the contradictory notions against previous background lore that there are no wolves on Fenris, and that Bjorn's hand was cut off by a human after all rather than Valdor, and that a lot of their barbarism is essentially feigned to deceive their enemies...

 

...it's hardly a stretch to see that "resistance" (real or imagined in-universe) can only go so far when it comes to Chaos. These are Space Wolves literally living inside Hell. They're going to feel a rise in temperature around all that fire. Choice and culture doesn't come into it.

 

You don't enter the Eye of Terror - a realm where your thoughts become reality and your guilts, fears, and hatreds manifest on your flesh - and remain wholly unchanged.

Why anyone would follow something so distasteful is beyond comprehension. Why don't people try and leave?

 

 

My characters reasoning within his Warband? Because it's cowardly.

 

"The warp is humanity, it is our mirror. To deny the warp is to deny yourself, the Imperium is built on that denial. Denial that gods are real and do exist outside of the Emperor, denial of the blackness in your heart that causes you to seek the pleasure and pain of both yourself and others, denial of thought, denial of deviance, denial of cruelty, denial of evil, but denial of love too, denial of compassion, denial of acceptance, denial of wonder, denial of hope, denial of dreams, denial of anything but a corpse on a throne who may not even know you exist.

 

The Dark Gods are not some Lovecraftian horrors of myth and legend, incomprehensible and inscrutable  To an outsider it appears so, but what makes them more terrifying then any alien cosmic being is that we know them all too well. They are the good, bad, and ugly of mankind, and why they are so twisted and evil is because humans are often twisted and evil. But without evil there is no good, without death there is no life, and all Slaaneshi know there is no joy without pain. To push the Dark Gods away is to push yourself away, it's to hide in blind faith and beg the Emperor to accept you as something you're not. For all their courage and bravery in battle, loyalists are cowards because the only reason they are that way is because they hide from the human they once were, they hide from what's natural to them, plug their ears and pretend it's not there. 

 

They live a lie.

 

The Emperor tried to make us forget our humanity so that we would go out and kill for him, they took us as children and denied us a normal life because a human being is far too 'flawed' in that humanity. It's why ten thousand years later they morph them into things even more extreme, brainwashing them until all traces of free thought is wiped from their minds. In their chapters they find a psudo-family who thinks like them, acts like them, and they see that total stagnation of ourselves as honorable and noble. But Fulgrim was right, brotherhood is for sheep minds and heresy is godly, it's only by diverging that we truly explore who we are.

 

In the Eye of Terror what we are might turn us into monsters, but at least it makes us honest about ourselves. Nothing changes the ending either way, in this universe everyone is condemned to the warp when they die, to either ascend to daemonhood or be devoured by it's tides until you no longer have a consciousness of your own...if you're lucky. But it is better to die a monster who can look in that mirror and see all of that uglyness, to come face to face with the humans we once were with all of those strange emotions the Emperor would deny us, and maybe...just a little...we can see beauty in there too. When we pass, we'll pass smiling."

 

Ahem, in character voice off.

[Kol Saresk]

 

If people can believe the contradictory notions against previous background lore that there are no wolves on Fenris, and that Bjorn's hand was cut off by a human after all rather than Valdor, and that a lot of their barbarism is essentially feigned to deceive their enemies...

 

...it's hardly a stretch to see that "resistance" (real or imagined in-universe) can only go so far when it comes to Chaos. These are Space Wolves literally living inside Hell. They're going to feel a rise in temperature around all that fire. Choice and culture doesn't come into it.

 

You don't enter the Eye of Terror - a realm where your thoughts become reality and your guilts, fears, and hatreds manifest on your flesh - and remain wholly unchanged.

Why anyone would follow something so distasteful is beyond comprehension. Why don't people try and leave?

They do. Hence the Black Crusades.

[Loesh]

 

They do. Hence the Black Crusades.

 

 

Well, that's more trying to *spread* the Eye of Terror really.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

They do. Hence the Black Crusades.

 

Well, that's more trying to *spread* the Eye of Terror really.

Only Abaddon's though. Remember, the 13 Black Crusades, aren't the only Black Crusades. The ones that are numbered are simply the most devastating and were led by Abaddon personally. There are still a whole slew of minor Black Crusades which have nothing to do with him that while significantly smaller in scale, are still devastating to the Imperium. For example, the Cholercaust. Or Angron's Crusade of Fire, I believe it was called.

[Marshal Rohr]

It just doesn't make sense. No one with a shred of self-preservation/self-interest would want to willingly serve gods who are more than likely to ruin you for laughs than help you. It's like applying for a job knowing your boss will probably kill you and your family instead of giving you a paycheck.

 

Not to mention the physical stupidity of mutation. A master swordsman worships Slaanesh to be a better Swordsmen and grows a :cuss on his head as a reward. What a remarkable life choice.

 

Until they fix the setting as a whole with believable motivations for each side, it's just not gonna work out. At least the Heresy started as a political movement. That's believable. The Warmaster Chronicles are great books, and really the only chance we will ever get to see how Chaos rules.

[A D-B]

...serve gods...

 

...worships...

 

Man, I thought you were joking earlier with that "Why don't they leave?" thing.

 

I mean, they don't leave because they can't. The Eye of Terror is a prison as much as a haven. It's Hell. Lucifer and the fallen angels were trapped in Hell, despite ruling it. Escaping it from time to time is a big deal for the Devil and his demons. The same goes for the Chaos Marines.

 

But to deal with your quote directly above, that's sort of the thing. It's not worship and service as most people assume. I take your wider point about Chaos itself, but it's not a case of most interactions with Chaos being anything like religion or worship or faith. Yes, it's easy to convey in video games for people that don't know the setting. "These guys pray to evil gods, therefore they're the bad guys." And yes, in some novels written by writers less familiar with the setting or preferring its rawer edges, it's a common Chaos trope.  

 

And the Word Bearers? Yes. Other cases, absolutely. The majority, absolutely not. Chaos isn't a religion or a disease you catch. It's the everpresent threat of any malicious emotion allowing Something Old And Inhuman into your soul and brain from the reality behind reality. If a battlefield is bloody enough... Bloodletters will appear. If someone is completely decadent and lost in sensational pleasures... Slaanesh will pay attention to them. "Summoning" is the shallow, obvious end of the spectrum, keeping with the video game presentation we often see. It happens, of course, but it's also the obvious version of what happens. Not the only one.

 

Look at Ahriman. He wants nothing to do with Chaos. He does horrible things, selfish things, murderous things, endlessly furthering the goals and presence of Chaos... entirely for himself. He believes he's using it and remains untouched by its control. Khârn didn't enter into any worship or agreement with Chaos. He was marked by it, and everything he does now furthers it. Abaddon doesn't pray to the Gods. He does his own thing and the Gods take heed. None of them worship the Gods. None of them willingly serve them, or would even recognise the idea of it was explained to them. Night Lords kill and kill and kill until daemons show up and swallow the planet. They don't worship Chaos or give a damn about the daemons; it's just an interesting way to commit Exterminatus for them. There's no prayer here, no worship, no service that they'd recognise. Even if we, with the rulebooks, can say "Ultimately that action serves the Chaos Gods' agendas".

 

Well, I like cheeseburgers. Ultimately that serves obesity and heart disease. I still do it. 

 

I've said it on the forum a few times in much greater detail, but it's not a case of organised religion or many Chaos Marines thinking Chaos rocks on toast. They're motivated by their own deals; they hate, they want vengeance, they want recognition, they want to survive. That lets Chaos into their hearts. Add it to where they had to hide in order to survive after the Scouring, and it makes a lot of sense. They're not really praying to Chaos in cults and thinking comedy/useless mutations are super-awesome. The Gods are real, and they know that. They may hate that truth, but they acknowledge it. They may be indifferent to it, but they're aware of it. And they're aware that when it comes to battle, raising an icon of Khorne in the middle of a fight comes with a risk, but it also comes with undeniable benefits. The gains outweigh the risks tenfold, especially in the short term. 

 

Added to that, mutation isn't supposed to be "physically stupid". The point of it is that it's supposed to reflect your inner self and/or the whims of the gods, and it's supposed to make you better. It improves you, in whatever it is you focus on. It makes you better at killing, and harder to kill, which is literally all most Chaos Marines (and Space Marines...) care about. When mutation goes wrong or goes too far and loses its benefit, well, we call those Spawn. And while many Chaos Marines likely fear that fate, it doesn't happen to everyone - or even most of them - so it's not silly to see how most of them suspect they'll escape that fate. Most of them will. 

 

Also, and this is crucial, we have the rulebooks. They don't. it's easy to say "But the Chaos Gods are laughing at them all and screwing them over", but in-universe is that really the case on the ground? The Chaos Marine who sees someone become Spawn: well, they were weak. He's not weak. He'll be more careful. He's more worthy. He won't be a slave, anyway! He's too independent. And he'll phrase his wishes very carefully so the Monkey's Paw doesn't make it all go wrong. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Dude.

 

 

Totally killed my :cuss unicorn punch line I'd been setting up.

[A D-B]

Dude.

Totally killed my unicorn punch line I'd been setting up.

WELL NOW WE'RE BOTH SAD

[Remus Ventanus.]

Heh, that was fun to read

[Phoebus]

I finished Ragnar Blackmane today.

 

Yes, it's short. When I say that, though, it's not informed by a "176 pages/XXXK word count is too short for USD 65" perspective. Rather, it's that I read a very good tale that - personal opinion follows - could've been even better had it been longer. For example, I really wanted to see what Logan Grimnar's reaction would have been to Vorain's appeal, as well as Ragnar's part in that encounter.

 

I say this because because I think Ragnar did very well to remind us that young Blackmane's heroics were often offset in the eyes of his masters by his hot-headedness and the blunders that resulted from it. I suspect his rise to becoming the youngest Wolf Lord ever had much to do with the moral courage and integrity he demonstrated in situations such as this.

 

Something else.

 

There is a great story waiting to be told about Sorael. I don't just say this because I enjoy reading about the Unforgiven.

 

Hear me out.

 

 

Sorael's attitude following the first flashback episode is that of a dead man walking. He's almost certainly seen Ragnar fight during their joint campaign, and he knows he doesn't have a chance in hell of beating the Space Wolf.

 

But then the Night Lords intercede and the duel to the death is postponed. Indefinitely.

 

So what does Sorael do then? Well, we don't know... but it would appear he embarked on an Inigo Montoya-level mono-maniacal quest to ready himself for this ultimate duel. When we next see him in 999.M41he is every bit the match of Blackmane himself - who wasn't exactly resting on his laurels in the meantime.

 

I don't know. Maybe that's not how it went down. Maybe Sorael is pathologically self-deprecating about his abilities, and he always had it in him to take Blackmane to the limit. Or, even more unlikely, maybe he's just a pompous jerk who likes building up unnecessary drama before a duel he always thought he had a good chance of winning. Either way, I think Lexicanium Morthiac would have seen through it.

 

But if Sorael did, in fact, go through the most epic, four-decade-long training montage ever, then there's a whole other level to this unseen journey. Had Ragnar not violated the laws of the Duellum Honestas and mudered Champion Harrad, Sorael may have gone on to a comparatively undistinguished career. The process of making himself into a paragon of a duelist, however, had the almost certainly unintended consequence of earning him the Inner Circle's attention.

 

I can only imagine the reaction Sorael must have had to the revelations that came with being elevated to the Deathwing and, later, the Inner Circle. I wonder if any part of him blames Ragnar for his role in having his eyes opened to such awful truths.

 

[CarbonBased]

 

~Awesome spoilery goodness~ 

 

Sweet Baby Emperor in a Tuxedo T-shirt. I need to read this story.

[RapatoR]

It just doesn't make sense. No one with a shred of self-preservation/self-interest would want to willingly serve gods who are more than likely to ruin you for laughs than help you. It's like applying for a job knowing your boss will probably kill you and your family instead of giving you a paycheck.

Not to mention the physical stupidity of mutation. A master swordsman worships Slaanesh to be a better Swordsmen and grows a :cuss on his head as a reward. What a remarkable life choice.

Until they fix the setting as a whole with believable motivations for each side, it's just not gonna work out. At least the Heresy started as a political movement. That's believable. The Warmaster Chronicles are great books, and really the only chance we will ever get to see how Chaos rules.

Well Chaos IS tempting. Like reeeeeeealy tempting. Otherwise noone would be lured by it. Look at Helldrakes for example. The pilot practically becomes one with the plane. That is a HUGE advantage. Granted the rules don't reflect that, (suddenly itis less precise than before), but there are milions of others examples when rules do not reflect background, this should not be bothering.