The Grail Wardens: a Liber Astartes Group Project

[Doctor Perils]

Good to have you back, Arkangilos. The complete timeline as it stands at the minute is on the last page, I think. If not, it'll be the page before that. And the little list above covers most of what we're working on now. The Confederacy is the only radically new thing, I think.

 

Y'know, we really need a convenient place to store all this information... Have you updated the first post yet, Thørn?

Nope, sorry, I've been really taken with work (days of 9 til 9 isn't great for Europeans, especially when they're peppered with 8 til 11ers) I get some occasions to have a glimpse here, but not necessarily the time to compile everything.

[Sir Perfluous]

Really, I'm just poking fun at this point! :) There's no hurry at all. Work takes precedent.

[Doctor Perils]

I've added a couple of paragraphs to the end of the historical introduction, mostly about the meeting of all the chapter masters so they can decide on their course of action.

 

Yes, I said all the Chapter Masters ;)

[Minigiant]

What if the grail (Based on this being a physical item, which I believe has been settled on) causes visions in the Grail Wardens, more specifically 1 from each chapter. That is how they are chosen. I imagine from once they have been recognised they fill a role somewhere between Librarian and Chaplain. That way the chapters dont have to recruit their bloodline brothers, they find them.

 

Edit: I do think we need to concentrate on writing that battle sequence in the cathedral

Edited June 23, 2016 by Minigiant

[Sir Perfluous]

What if the grail (Based on this being a physical item, which I believe has been settled on) causes visions in the Grail Wardens, more specifically 1 from each chapter. That is how they are chosen. I imagine from once they have been recognised they fill a role somewhere between Librarian and Chaplain. That way the chapters dont have to recruit their bloodline brothers, they find them.

 

Edit: I do think we need to concentrate on writing that battle sequence in the cathedral

 

I think we agreed that nobody actually knew what the Grail looked like, because the Temple Guard were the only ones allowed to look at it, and they were all killed, though it was presumably a physical object.

 

You're proposing a Dalai Lama sort of recruitment process? Or one more similar to the selecting of the Emperor's Champion? Either way, it seems like a good idea to me. It would also help to cement the idea that the Guard are the Librarian's spiritual successors. I'd say that we should have more than one per chapter, though. 

 

Thinking about it, maybe the Grail is rumoured to be the body of one of the Librarians, preserved in a golden sarcophagus or similar container. Perhaps it became mystically stone or crystal or something as the final battle took place. It is inhabited by the souls of all the Librarians who sacrificed themselves to seal the rift - as they burned up, their souls became bound to each other or something. From this prison, they continue their eternal struggle against the beast that lurks within the rift, fighting for millennia to keep him enchained. A struggle similar to the Emperor's on the Golden Throne, but on a smaller scale. 

 

It could also be the source of these visions - those who experience them believe that the Librarians are speaking to them directly, having judged them to be worthy of the mantle of Temple Guard. The Wardens might have a little competition going to see which chapter can have the greatest number chosen to be Guards!

 

We really need a dramatic-sounding name for the librarians. "The librarians" is a bit cumbersome. 

 

 

Ooh, I've had another thought! As none but the Temple Guard are allowed to see the Grail, the Wardens might appoint special serfs to care for the Temple who have been ritually blinded. I can imagine them standing in the background through the Guard's gatherings in mysterious looking white robes and hoods, chanting ominously. 

[Doctor Perils]

 

snip

 

I had thought that a more secular process of recruitment would help avoiding going too far into Arthurian Legend stereotypes, but since "visions" aren't really that well rooted in the legendarium, so if that's what you want, I'm okay with it. Perhaps it could only be limited to the Temple Guard ?

 

I think having a lot of theories about the nature of the Grail is best :)

 

Otherwise, could it be possible to have some kind of oracle, a single marine who is sent visions seemingly by the Grail. And the last one known is a Knight Resplendent ?

 

 

Simple version? conclave of Golgotha ?

 

And that sounds awesome

[Minigiant]

 

I think we agreed that nobody actually knew what the Grail looked like, because the Temple Guard were the only ones allowed to look at it, and they were all killed, though it was presumably a physical object.

 

 

I think we agreed that its form has been forgotten in time. But as the writers we know its a physical item. I think in the draft we used the pride artifact of golgotha

[Sir Perfluous]

 

I think we agreed that its form has been forgotten in time. But as the writers we know its a physical item. I think in the draft we used the pride artifact of golgotha

 

 

So we did. We could each agree on our own interpretations for each chapter, though, as I believe was suggested before - a sort of Catholic/Protestant divide could emerge between the "modern-day" chapters as a result. It could create an interesting dynamic, as each chapter searches for a different artefact. Perhaps one is looking for an actual cup, the other for the remains of a dead Librarian and another for... I don't know. The magic of friendship, perhaps.

 

 

I had thought that a more secular process of recruitment would help avoiding going too far into Arthurian Legend stereotypes, but since "visions" aren't really that well rooted in the legendarium, so if that's what you want, I'm okay with it. Perhaps it could only be limited to the Temple Guard ?

 

I think having a lot of theories about the nature of the Grail is best

 

Otherwise, could it be possible to have some kind of oracle, a single marine who is sent visions seemingly by the Grail. And the last one known is a Knight Resplendent ?

 

 

Simple version? conclave of Golgotha ?

 

And that sounds awesome

 

 

My thinking was that we use the visions as a means of recruitment into the Temple Guard. You see a vision, the Grail has deemed you worthy and you're in.

 

I like the idea of an oracle, actually. Those appointed Temple Guards experience the visions once, calling them to join the inner ranks of the Wardens. The Oracle, however, is in permanent thrall to these visions, speaking as the voice of the Grail, and as such is one of the most revered members of the Wardens. 

He could be a slightly dotty version of Merlin to the Guard's leader's King Arthur. An advisor and wise man, but often speaking in your typical seemingly-unhelpful-yet-prophetic riddles, of the sort you would expect from wise nutters. Maybe he too is blind - blindness could be a theme in the Wardens, perhaps. This would presumably be so that his "sight was not impeded by his eyes" or some other pseudo-wise reason.

[Minigiant]

We could also blur these visions into the black rage. The visions are noticed because they are not suffering from the same symptoms

[Doctor Perils]

We could also blur these visions into the black rage. The visions are noticed because they are not suffering from the same symptoms

Could work

 

Also, I was thinking that one of the more prevalent theories about who took the Grail could be that it was the last Oracle (since he was a Knight Resplendent and those turned traitor), but perhaps another theory could state that he took the Grail in order to protect it from the fallen kin he saw in his visions? These wouldn't preclude other theories arising either of course.

 

 

EDIT: did we ever settle on a name for the "sacrificial" chapter that's replacing the Crimson Knights ? Because I've thought of an alternative that is simple, yet effective: "the Impalers"... It could always be an unofficial name given to them by men who fought alongside them

Edited June 25, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[Minigiant]

 

We could also blur these visions into the black rage. The visions are noticed because they are not suffering from the same symptoms

Could work

 

Also, I was thinking that one of the more prevalent theories about who took the Grail could be that it was the last Oracle (since he was a Knight Resplendent and those turned traitor), but perhaps another theory could state that he took the Grail in order to protect it from the fallen kin he saw in his visions? These wouldn't preclude other theories arising either of course.

 

 

So this is what I am picturing

 

Within every chapter within our story, one marine suffers from visions, that one is anointed as a Grail temple guard on Golgotha. Once annointed the visions disappear apart from; the Oracle. The oracle is one of the temple guard, and sees all visions. When any one temple guard dies, the grail through visions selects another. When the oracle dies, another oracle is selected. So because visions select new temple guard, that could be a way for certain pieces of information leaking out? As well as your idea of different interpretations of the grail

 

Now I am not sure as to how much development has gone into the Knights Resplendent background since I lost spoke to them about it, but last time the curse was high suggestibility. High suggestibility sounds dangerous with visions

[Doctor Perils]

 

 

We could also blur these visions into the black rage. The visions are noticed because they are not suffering from the same symptoms

Could work

 

Also, I was thinking that one of the more prevalent theories about who took the Grail could be that it was the last Oracle (since he was a Knight Resplendent and those turned traitor), but perhaps another theory could state that he took the Grail in order to protect it from the fallen kin he saw in his visions? These wouldn't preclude other theories arising either of course.

 

 

So this is what I am picturing

 

Within every chapter within our story, one marine suffers from visions, that one is anointed as a Grail temple guard on Golgotha. Once annointed the visions disappear apart from; the Oracle. The oracle is one of the temple guard, and sees all visions. When any one temple guard dies, the grail through visions selects another. When the oracle dies, another oracle is selected. So because visions select new temple guard, that could be a way for certain pieces of information leaking out? As well as your idea of different interpretations of the grail

 

Now I am not sure as to how much development has gone into the Knights Resplendent background since I lost spoke to them about it, but last time the curse was high suggestibility. High suggestibility sounds dangerous with visions

 

Fine by me :)

 

I was thinking that the Imperial faction could have a more pronounced Ecclesiarchy vibe to it instead of a Mechanicum one, if Kelborn would be willing to show more zealotry to the Emperor as God ? I believe that you didn't want House Valcorian to be too close to the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Order of the Abyss is part of the Adepta Sororitas and so are part of the Ecclesiarchy anyway, plus my Crimson Cohort might quite logically turn to the worship of the Emperor rather then Sanguinius once they turn their backs on the Grail Wardens. Perhaps they believe that the Grail is an artefact of the Emperor, and don't specifically care about the Golgothane Rift ?

[Minigiant]

 

EDIT: did we ever settle on a name for the "sacrificial" chapter that's replacing the Crimson Knights ? Because I've thought of an alternative that is simple, yet effective: "the Impalers"... It could always be an unofficial name given to them by men who fought alongside them

 

 

No we had not, my draft version in word has it highlighted for change. I like the Impalers, simple.

 

 

Fine by me

I was thinking that the Imperial faction could have a more pronounced Ecclesiarchy vibe to it instead of a Mechanicum one, if Kelborn would be willing to show more zealotry to the Emperor as God ? I believe that you didn't want House Valcorian to be too close to the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Order of the Abyss is part of the Adepta Sororitas and so are part of the Ecclesiarchy anyway, plus my Crimson Cohort might quite logically turn to the worship of the Emperor rather then Sanguinius once they turn their backs on the Grail Wardens. Perhaps they believe that the Grail is an artefact of the Emperor, and don't specifically care about the Golgothane Rift ?

 

 

I like it. Maybe the new Crimson Cohort temple guards vision was to leave. You are forced to return because of the risk to your chapters future

[Doctor Perils]

I like it. Maybe the new Crimson Cohort temple guards vision was to leave. You are forced to return because of the risk to your chapters future

 

No, sorry, the Crimson Cohort leave because they believe they have been manipulated, either by Daemons or by their own brothers, and say "feth this" to the Grail Wardens. I think they'll also grow to distrust psychic powers and visions and such, and at the same time they might go closer to the Imperial Faith

[Kelborn]

 

I was thinking that the Imperial faction could have a more pronounced Ecclesiarchy vibe to it instead of a Mechanicum one, if Kelborn would be willing to show more zealotry to the Emperor as God ? I believe that you didn't want House Valcorian to be too close to the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Order of the Abyss is part of the Adepta Sororitas and so are part of the Ecclesiarchy anyway, plus my Crimson Cohort might quite logically turn to the worship of the Emperor rather then Sanguinius once they turn their backs on the Grail Wardens. Perhaps they believe that the Grail is an artefact of the Emperor, and don't specifically care about the Golgothane Rift ?

 

 

Well, that was one of my first thoughts about them, being zealous and fanatical and more tied to the Black Templars and the Ecclesiarchy than the AdMech. Their fanatism is increasing with each new generation.

It is also one of the reasons why they had started to experiment with psykers, leading to a unique weapon.

In their eyes, every psyker is a damned soul which needs to be redeemed. The only way to achieve this is fighting (and probably) dying for the cause of the Imperium.

So, no problem here. :)

[Sir Perfluous]

I like the theory that the last Oracle stole the Grail because he foresaw his brothers turning and taking it. We're really going to have to decide what chapter believes which theory, so that we can work out what they're up to in the "present day".
 
If we're calling the doomed chapter the Impalers, why not give them a Romanian theme, as in the original Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula? Blood Angels already have a strong vampiric theme, but it's more in line with the modern perception of vampires. I haven't heard of many successors who use the vampire's Eastern European roots as a theme. We could name the Chapter Master Vladimir César or something similar.

[Minigiant]

 

I like it. Maybe the new Crimson Cohort temple guards vision was to leave. You are forced to return because of the risk to your chapters future

 

No, sorry, the Crimson Cohort leave because they believe they have been manipulated, either by Daemons or by their own brothers, and say "feth this" to the Grail Wardens. I think they'll also grow to distrust psychic powers and visions and such, and at the same time they might go closer to the Imperial Faith

 

 

That bit completely slipped my mind but, it is not necessarily mutually exclusive. Obviously your chapter, we will follow you on that

 

I like the theory that the last Oracle stole the Grail because he foresaw his brothers turning and taking it. We're really going to have to decide what chapter believes which theory, so that we can work out what they're up to in the "present day".

 

If we're calling the doomed chapter the Impalers, why not give them a Romanian theme, as in the original Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula? Blood Angels already have a strong vampiric theme, but it's more in line with the modern perception of vampires. I haven't heard of many successors who use the vampire's Eastern European roots as a theme. We could name the Chapter Master Vladimir César or something similar.

 

I think each forces theory of the grail should be decided by their creator. I picture my sisters understanding as very vague due to the lack of information. What they do know though is the truth.

 

I do like the idea of that chapter background. Know little about the blood angels so as I have said previously, leaving it to those more in the know. Sounds cool though. Rule of cool and all that jazz

[Doctor Perils]

If we're calling the doomed chapter the Impalers, why not give them a Romanian theme, as in the original Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula? Blood Angels already have a strong vampiric theme, but it's more in line with the modern perception of vampires. I haven't heard of many successors who use the vampire's Eastern European roots as a theme. We could name the Chapter Master Vladimir César or something similar.

Why do you think I put that name forward ;) And yes, I think we should definitely steer away from the sparkly Vampires the Blood  Angels are becoming, give them a more Flesh Tearer/Flesh Eater vibe. Perhaps in their very first years they had to weather a chaotic cult invasion, which they threw back, but impaled their prisonners to show the people of their planet what would  happen if they rebelled, and the name stuck ?

 

Are we planning on having them descend from the Sanguinary Crusaders then ?

[Sir Perfluous]

 

If we're calling the doomed chapter the Impalers, why not give them a Romanian theme, as in the original Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula? Blood Angels already have a strong vampiric theme, but it's more in line with the modern perception of vampires. I haven't heard of many successors who use the vampire's Eastern European roots as a theme. We could name the Chapter Master Vladimir César or something similar.

Why do you think I put that name forward And yes, I think we should definitely steer away from the sparkly Vampires the Blood  Angels are becoming, give them a more Flesh Tearer/Flesh Eater vibe. Perhaps in their very first years they had to weather a chaotic cult invasion, which they threw back, but impaled their prisonners to show the people of their planet what would  happen if they rebelled, and the name stuck ?

 

Are we planning on having them descend from the Sanguinary Crusaders then ?

 

I much prefer the Flesh Tearer style for this chapter. And that origin for the name of the chapter is awesome. We should definitely use that.

 

To be honest, I'm starting to become really fond of this chapter.

 

Consulting my handy family tree, the Crimson Knights were descended from the Sanguinary Crusaders, so i presume that the Impalers will be too, if Arkangilos is OK with it.

[Doctor Perils]

 

 

If we're calling the doomed chapter the Impalers, why not give them a Romanian theme, as in the original Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula? Blood Angels already have a strong vampiric theme, but it's more in line with the modern perception of vampires. I haven't heard of many successors who use the vampire's Eastern European roots as a theme. We could name the Chapter Master Vladimir César or something similar.

Why do you think I put that name forward And yes, I think we should definitely steer away from the sparkly Vampires the Blood  Angels are becoming, give them a more Flesh Tearer/Flesh Eater vibe. Perhaps in their very first years they had to weather a chaotic cult invasion, which they threw back, but impaled their prisonners to show the people of their planet what would  happen if they rebelled, and the name stuck ?

 

Are we planning on having them descend from the Sanguinary Crusaders then ?

 

I much prefer the Flesh Tearer style for this chapter. And that origin for the name of the chapter is awesome. We should definitely use that.

 

To be honest, I'm starting to become really fond of this chapter.

 

Consulting my handy family tree, the Crimson Knights were descended from the Sanguinary Crusaders, so i presume that the Impalers will be too, if Arkangilos is OK with it.

 

I thought we were aiming on phasing the Crimson Knights out in the absence of Cesar de Quart ?

But yes, we'll have to see with Arkangilos.

Also, if Arkangilos isn't comfortable with having a successor chapter called the Impalers (which I could understand), the Impalers could remain an unofficial nickname.

 

After that, we should also decide on a name for the original enemy warband (some names were also put forward but nothing concrete was decided), as well as a name for the Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince that leads/is allied to them, which will give us a starting point to flesh them out correctly. After all, it's difficult to write about a campaign where we don't even know what the enemy is called or fighting for

 

EDIT: here's a reminder of some ideas we'd put forward:

 

Chaos Warband name suggestions:

 

Hydras of Pacificus

Denizens of the Deep

 

Possible shortcut:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93501

 

 

So I've just tried some rolls, and here's a more narrative presentation of my results:

Warband formed around an Ultramarines warlord and his two lackeys, a Black Legion corrupted Techmarine and a World Eaters warrior. The Ultramarine traitor maintains a grasp of iron over his marines from diverse backgrounds through a rigidly structured organisation.

Absolutely focused on the Annihilation of the week, they are seen as traitors even among the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines.

They have Warped Reflexes, notably because of zygotic degeneration of their Lyman's Ear.

 

This fleet-based warband are especially well known for having defeated Craftworld Es'kandarea, sacrificing any and all survivors in the name of their patron god, Khorne.

 

Though they are currently under-strength after the Liberation of Golgotha during the Red Crusade, their Armoured Assault tactics are rightly feared throughout Segmentum Pacificus, especially because of their use of ___s, special assault vehicles that are terrifying to behold.

 

 

I'm really pleased with some of the combinations I had: an Ultramarines Chaos Lord that maintains an Ordered Warband is great, and Special Vehicle can be really cool for an Armoured Assault based army can offer some great opportunities for developping new vehicles

I wasn't quite as pleased with the Eldar and Ork main ennemies, but that can easily be changed.

 

What can be even more fun is that since they are fleet-based, the names Minigiant proposed can work

 

 

 

Good idea. So this warband would be more directly opposed to the Order of the Abyss, or would they be unrelated completely ?

 

For the "Sacrificial" chapter, how old could it be ? Because I wouldn't mind having one or two in the training cadre for the Crimson Host, to enhance their "savage" side.

 

I think they should have interests that oppose the non warden side, so that the Knights Resplendent oppose the warden side. No idea what all these interests could be, sure we can think of something.

 

As is Sacrificial, I am sure we can make it whatever way works best for you. I would say not 2nd founding as that can get complicated I have heard. Would 3rd work for you?

 

I'm really pleased with some of the combinations I had: an Ultramarines Chaos Lord that maintains an Ordered Warband is great, and Special Vehicle can be really cool for an Armoured Assault based army can offer some great opportunities for developping new vehicles

I wasn't quite as pleased with the Eldar and Ork main ennemies, but that can easily be changed.

 

What can be even more fun is that since they are fleet-based, the names Minigiant proposed can work

 

I already have some ideas and conversions for the vehicle. Thinking Rhino sized FW Gorgon, with individual dozer blades for each track. I am getting off track, we can sort that out later.

 

The fluff rolled for is quiet good. The Khorne bit would need to reflect the Daemon prince allegiance, that we still havent settled on. And you are right, the Eldar and Ork bit is a bit meeeh

 

I am glad you liked the name, I suggested Denizens of the Deep as a Chapter name on here to someone wanting a oceanic based chapter, it was not used, so glad it could be recycled.

 

 

In fairness, I'd forgotten that they had access to unique vehicles in this version, but this could be a starting point for involving the Confederacy :)

Edited June 27, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[Arkangilos]

I thought recruitment was like the deathwatch. Each chapter chooses different people for it based on their own requirements. Some could see it as a banishment, some an honor. Some could be a vision, some could be a failure.

[Doctor Perils]

I thought recruitment was like the deathwatch. Each chapter chooses different people for it based on their own requirements. Some could see it as a banishment, some an honor. Some could be a vision, some could be a failure.

That might be best in fairness, it allows everybody to play with it how they want :)

[Sir Perfluous]

I thought we had the regular Wardens stationed on Golgotha that were recruited in a Deathwatch manner from the member chapters, and then the Temple Guard, the elite of the Wardens on Golgotha, who were selected by the Grail from those marines stationed on the planet to serve as its personal protectors in the inner sanctum of the Temple. They would be the only ones allowed to look at it - the other Wardens stationed on Golgotha weren't allowed in the Temple. I might be wrong, though.

[Arkangilos]

I thought we had the regular Wardens stationed on Golgotha that were recruited in a Deathwatch manner from the member chapters, and then the Temple Guard, the elite of the Wardens on Golgotha, who were selected by the Grail from those marines stationed on the planet to serve as its personal protectors in the inner sanctum of the Temple. They would be the only ones allowed to look at it - the other Wardens stationed on Golgotha weren't allowed in the Temple. I might be wrong, though.

I had always thought the inner circle (just a phrase, not their title), chose which ones would be allowed in as the replacements.

 

But this raises another point: are they constantly fighting the local wildlife and stuff or is it peaceful? If it's peaceful they likely would be the same ones from before as BA and their Successors can live an incredibly long time. Unless it (or the planet) causes them to succumb much faster to the flaws?

[Doctor Perils]

 

I thought we had the regular Wardens stationed on Golgotha that were recruited in a Deathwatch manner from the member chapters, and then the Temple Guard, the elite of the Wardens on Golgotha, who were selected by the Grail from those marines stationed on the planet to serve as its personal protectors in the inner sanctum of the Temple. They would be the only ones allowed to look at it - the other Wardens stationed on Golgotha weren't allowed in the Temple. I might be wrong, though.

I had always thought the inner circle (just a phrase, not their title), chose which ones would be allowed in as the replacements.

 

But this raises another point: are they constantly fighting the local wildlife and stuff or is it peaceful? If it's peaceful they likely would be the same ones from before as BA and their Successors can live an incredibly long time. Unless it (or the planet) causes them to succumb much faster to the flaws?

 

I'd posited that they'd have to fight off some invasions and stuff, and BAs might live an incredibly long time, it's not going to be 3000 years either. However, there are likely very few generations, considering they don't spend much time in combat.