Leviathan Siege Dread tactics

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

We need a Hydra Patteren Murder Dreadnaught that has 6 arms: 2 for the deredo lascannon battery, 1 leviathan murder dril, 1 leviathan snippy claw, 1 grav bombard, 1 with a big middle finger waving frantically at everything.

Now THAT's what a Defiler should look like! :o+ Edit :

 

The one thing I don' tquite like about those Lascannons is the lack of equivalent against 'fleshy' targets like Thanatars... Something that doubles or multiplies the number of wounds by d3 would have been appropriate.

Look no further than the Leviathans Snippy Claw.

It just feels off that the lascannon can inflict two Pens (and thus HP "wounds") on a vehicle with AV and yet is limited to one wound on any that has a T value instead. I mean why is it so much more effective at downing dreads than it is at downing AdMech 'bots?

It's role is obviously anti AV. There's plenty of other things that effectively deal with multi wound models.

[Terminus]

It can be pretty potent, the fact that it has a potential to blitz an AV14 target with 4 penetrating hits (~6.25% vs like 1% chance to glance 4 times with the Anvilus) is nice, but it could reliably evaporate lighter targets.  I don't have the exact wording of the gun, if you make a cover save on the initial penetrating hit, would the second still trigger?

[Slips]

It says as long as you score a successful penetrating hit, you get another automatic one that ignores cover on a 4+. So, to me, this happens before saves are made since you just need to Pen to trigger Exoschock.

 

Exact wording is:

"If this weapons successfully scores a penetrating hit on a target, roll a D6. On the roll of a 4+, a second automatic penetrating hit is inflicted on the same target against which cover saves may not be taken."

[1ncarnadine]

It can be pretty potent, the fact that it has a potential to blitz an AV14 target with 4 penetrating hits (~6.25% vs like 1% chance to glance 4 times with the Anvilus) is nice, but it could reliably evaporate lighter targets.  I don't have the exact wording of the gun, if you make a cover save on the initial penetrating hit, would the second still trigger?

 

Yes, it triggers on a successful pen, even if that pen gets saved against.

 

That the second hits generated have ignores cover is so brutal. Flyers that jink, DDPs that come in with Shrouded, etc are likely to suffer, and with BS5 and S10 your odds of landing two pens vs AV12 aren't that bad. Combo that with Interceptor and it's a pretty neat deal, if still costly. Plus solid utility for firing on heavy armor if you need to? Neat.

Edited July 27, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Brofist]

Well I'm a huge nerd so I decided to really bite into this option and test my own bias against it. Here's what I found.

How it compares against AV12 targets with 4+ cover saves: 

 

Thudd Gun: 0.741 pens

Arachnus: 0.836 pens

Anvilus: 1.080 pens

 

The autocannons have no chance to explode, while the Arachnus has a ~20% chance to do just that. On the other hand the autocannons have a higher chance to strip hull points. So the real strength lies in the ignores cover pen that might just delete a unit outright. How does it compare in terms of cost? 235 points gets you an arachnus dodo with just the lascannons. It could also get you 3 thudd guns or 1 sicaran and some change. Here's how these options compare against AV12 with jink saves:

 

x3 TL Lascannons: .667 pens, .889hp removed

x1 Arachnus Deredeo: 0.836 pens, .974hp removed

x1 Anvilus Deredeo: 1.080 pens, 1.481hp removed

x1 Accelerator Sicaran:  0.889 pens, 1.778hp removed 

x3 Sunder Thudd Guns: 2.222 pens, 3hp removed

 

What about AV14? How does it compare to the competition against something getting a 4+ cover save?

 

x3 TL Lascannons: .222 pens, .444hp removed, 0.07 to explode

x1 Arachnus Deredeo: .348 pens, .487hp removed, .112 to explode

x1 Sicaran Venator: .370 pens, .5hp removed, .122 to explode

x4 Laser Destroyers: .543 pens, .988hp removed, .178 to explode

x2 Laser Vindicators: .815 pens, 1.48hp removed, .27 to explode

 

Conclusion:

Based on this, I think we have a pretty clear picture. The Arachnus is your best option for shooting down heavily armored aircraft with lots of HP. Things like assault claws, storm eagles, fire raptors, and assault rams. In a pinch, it's also passable for anti tank duty, but it's eclipsed in performance and value by dedicated AT options. It can also work against lighter vehicles, but using it for that is really waste. Other things do it better for less points.

 

The main limiting factor is cost- each arachnus lascannon is about the same performance as a single laser destroyer. So if you are looking for a counter to a high armored flying meta, or you want to add some passable AT to your list without changing up your composition, this is your jam. In most other cases something else will probably be a better choice.

[Marshal Loss]

Nice analysis. It does have a better range compared to some of those options though (48 compared to 36, although the autocannons are already 48 if I remember correctly) which gives it a slight edge over the mid range firepower you typically find on rapier platforms, which I'm a fan of.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Marshal Loss

[Jackalwolf]

It is a perfect addition to my EC army, fluffy as hell to have an old Sunkiller entombed in an Arachnus Deredeo.

[infyrana]

I'm confused...

 

There are a fair few recent sentences leading with the word "it", yet I'm not seeing the Leviathan being the subject of these convos.

 

Maybe we need a new tactica thread for the Deredeo - or merge an old one? :)

 

Please help me find that lost Leviathan love!

[Terminus]

Everyone is bummed about the dread-pod triple nerf, lol.

[Spinsanity]

Regarding that so-called nerf, hopefully FW can be convinced to soon-enough release an updated FAQ. That single entry is gonna be the source of countless arguments all around for sure :\

[Terminus]

FAQ for what, the silly "I can't be charged even if I disembark" stuff that makes no sense? I wouldn't hold out hope, they have often ignored more convoluted cases than that.

[Spinsanity]

Terminus, please, it can easily be argued the other way and, kn this specific instance, I've often found your remarks to be borderline condescending. Consider people who disagree with you silly if you want, just don't voice it please.

[Brofist]

Yeah dude. You've made it clear that you have strong feelings about the rule. I think we all respect that. That said, we all dropped it, but you're still taking little jabs at the idea that people might disagree with you. It's definitely condescending.

 

30k is just a dumb game from a system with rules famously inconsistent and confusing. I wouldn't take it so seriously.

[Lord Blackwood]

I feel it is just a matter of tone gentlemen. Terminus has admitted in the past that English is not his first language and it would be my assumption that his tone is not meant to come across as so antagonistic.

[Brother Aiwass]

I'm planning to field a Levy with Bombard, CML, phosphex and firenipples (on foot!*), already got the model :D any thoughts in this build? I can proxy DCCW with Defiler parts or kitbash a Storm cannon, but I like to try this first and would love to know if any of you used it and the success rate it had.

 

Also want to ask about building a pet companion for him (a Cortus); would be this a good idea?

 

*Blackshields have no DP access and I don't have or plan to have a Kharybdis.

[Runefyre]

I'm planning to field a Levy with Bombard, CML, phosphex and firenipples (on foot!*), already got the model any thoughts in this build? I can proxy DCCW with Defiler parts or kitbash a Storm cannon, but I like to try this first and would love to know if any of you used it and the success rate it had.

 

Also want to ask about building a pet companion for him (a Cortus); would be this a good idea?

 

*Blackshields have no DP access and I don't have or plan to have a Kharybdis.

Unless you're expecting an alpha strike against you, it's a good idea to take the Volkite calivers. The 30" range is quite nice. I also usually take a storm cannon for maximum range on the primary weapon system.

 

And as a Levi's rules are geared towards cc (+1 I on the charge, 2 HoW etc.) I always take one cc arm to take advantage of those rules. Although Imo a Levi should have ap2 inherent in it's profile (ala thanatar), but that's beside the point.

[Terminus]

Yes, I do not know why they took away Smash from Dreadnoughts but left it for Monstrous Creatures.  I also think a Leviathan should have a melee weapon, but I've also experienced the searing pain of a deathblossom (2 storm cannons, 2 assault cannons/volkite culverins).  Now that dreadnought pods give shrouding to the enemy, at least I get some nice saves or they have to disembark and I eat only a turn of shooting and some blistering overwatch before engaging it to keep it quiet!

[Guiltysparc]

I just want to double check, but the Levi loses an attack if you replace one of the claws with a gun; a grav/claw load out would have 3 attacks rather than the 4 in his profile, right?

Edited August 10, 2016 by Guiltysparc

[Runefyre]

I just want to double check, but the Levi loses an attack if you replace one of the claws with a gun; a grav/claw load out would have 3 attacks rather than the 4 in his profile, right?

Yup, that's correct. Kinda sucks. Make that definitely sucks (especially when castellax and such get a crapload of attacks on the charge with ap2 but get to keep their snazzy guns)

[Guiltysparc]

It would be nice if the FAQ that gave +1A to SM dreads gave the levi another one also.  This actually leads me to anothe another question, marine sargents have 2 attacks in their profile, do they not get another +1 for having pistol/ccw since thats their base wargear; do they lose an attack when they swapped in a powerfist?  This probably belongs in the rules forum.

[Runefyre]

It would be nice if the FAQ that gave +1A to SM dreads gave the levi another one also.  This actually leads me to anothe another question, marine sargents have 2 attacks in their profile, do they not get another +1 for having pistol/ccw since thats their base wargear; do they lose an attack when they swapped in a powerfist?  This probably belongs in the rules forum.

sergeants do get +1 attack from having a pistol/ccw as it's not stated that the extra attack is already included in their profile. Could be wrong but that's always been my understanding. And no he wouldn't lose an attack by purchasing a powerfist, he'd just lose access to the +1 granted to him by having two non-specialist weapons.

[Guiltysparc]

Got it, ya, thats how i have been playing also but the incongruency dawned on me after thinking about the leviathan.

[Terminus]

The Levi is designed right, it's the Contemptors and Box Dreads that are idiotic. They gain an attack for swapping a gun to a melee weapon, but don't lose an attack swapping a melee weapon to a gun. I guess RAW you can just do the free swap to heavy bolter and back and have infinite attacks. Edited August 16, 2016 by Terminus

[Brofist]

The Levi is designed right, it's the Contemptors and Box Dreads that are idiotic. They gain an attack for swapping a gun to a melee weapon, but don't lose an attack swapping a melee weapon to a gun. I guess RAW you can just do the free swap to heavy bolter and back and have infinite attacks.

 

Edit: after reading and rereading and contemplating the new Pod, I'm officially reversing my position. The grammar indicates my first inclination, but that reading creates really odd rules situations, and I remembered that FW has a 90% chance to use the wrong grammar in everything, so my initial reading is now IMO not RAI. Omg, a concession on the Internet! Quick, everyone, to the meme stations!

 

You're a good dude Terminus. I don't care what Slipstreams says about you!

[Guiltysparc]

Is there anything more enjoyable than murdering a big unit with the Levi's hammer of wrath attacks?  Thematically its just sooooo great.  I played a game against Tau yesterday and finished off a stormsurge with the 2 HoWs after whittling it down with shooting, #satisfaction