Shield Of Baal (FTSF) Un-Official ERRATA V1.1

[Frater Antodeniel]

Hello Brothers, Yesterday, i was complaining about the Shield Of Baal supplement and the clear lack of work the gw team put in it. So i worked for 2-3 hours, on an Errata that could reflect what the Shield Of Baal - Flesh Tearers Detachment would have look like. Here we go....(Edit : i added the Blood Angels Version, to show you what could be Blood Angels with REAL chapter tactics.)

 

 

 

Images Suppressed

 

 

Your Opinion is welcome once more =)

[Charlo]

I've not read it fully, but just the +1 int, move through cover and preferred enemy in tandem is a little much :P

 

Play that "wieldy" as opposed to unwieldy powerfist is a tad strong too.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I've not read it fully, but just the +1 int, move through cover and preferred enemy in tandem is a little much

Play that "wieldy" as opposed to unwieldy powerfist is a tad strong too.

Yes, for the +1 initiative, i have been thinking to remove it while i worked earlier on a "Blood Angels version". You marking the point only proove that's maybe too much indeed.

After all, the furious charge and the special Flesh Tearers rule => move through cover and preferred enemy (infantry), may be already enough.

I will be waiting more opinion to change this, but i have still interrogation about :

- The +1 initiative that you pointed, i think that i would be better for Blood Angels than for Flesh Tearers.

- The Explosion of Bloodlust Detachment benefit (8" or 10", 2x4+ or 2x5+ for the rage/extra-attack) ?

For the relics i think it's balanced. Maybe, +5 points for the Memor Nihilis...but for a 40p weapon that can only be unlock to a non-eternal warrior...or maybe i should halves the bearer attacks by 2....i don't know...

[Quixus]

Why should Flesh Tearers be strictly better than their parent chapter? BA only always get furious charge. +1 Initiative is restricted to one detachment. FT always get both and on top of that move through cover and preferred enemy (infantry).

[Frater Antodeniel]

Quixus : Don't be upset^^, Blood Angels Uptade will come. As i wrote it earlier, i work on it.

I arranged The Shield Of Baal Flesh Tearers Description using the base of the SM : Codex presentation of Chapters Doctrine.

If Blood Angels were in the SM : Codex, their Chapter Doctrine would be : "Blood Angels, Chapter Doctrine : Furious Charge" ....Yeah....

An illogic situation. So be sure that i do the same treatment for the Blood Angels chapters, since after all, like many said on this forum, "The Blood Angels are Codex compliant"....so they have their Chapter Doctrine, and so does the Flesh Tearers.

The Flesh Tearers +1 initiative will surely be remove and is already given to the Blood Angels.

And for the Second chapter doctrine it grants the mov/assault movement to the jump infantry (like the raven guard) and give the Skilled rider to Skimmer and Flyer. (Things that are fluffy.)

So you see, Blood Angels and Flesh Tearers will be bring to the others chapter doctrines standart. And for the Blood Angels Detachment benefit, i think to grant Jump infantry and Assault Terminator charge ability after deepstrike if they not scatter more than 2-3-4" of their landing ground. This way it bring 1/2 change of charge after deepstrike.

[Arkangilos]

You realize furious charge is largely because of the red thirst, right? Even if it wasn't The blood Angels and all of their successors would share that, considering they all originate from the same point. There will be slight differences, but not really enough to warrant a full chapter doctrine change.

Just like technically, according to codex space marines, successors share their parent chapter's doctrines.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Month ago, in another topic, i said something about the successors chapters :

 

- Some are like the Blood Angels, embrassing the more noble aspect of the Blood Angels nature. Those are the Angels Encarmine, the Blood Drinkers, Notably.

 

- Some are like the Flesh Tearers, embrassing the more savage aspect of the Blood Angels nature. Those are the Knights of Blood, the Flesh Eaters, Notably.

 

 

We born of a Twin-Nature Chapter, Noble and Savage, like Fallen Angels we are no more Angels yet we are not Deamon either. Some have White Wings, other Black Wings. That is our difference with all the other chapters.

 

So, i took this fact to harmonize the vision of what the Two chapters Doctrine are.

 

Both share the Furious Charge that the Thirst give them.

 

But were the Blood Angels focus themselves on the artistic aspect (+1 init), the Flesh Tearers focus on the brutal aspect (Prefered enemy : infantry)

 

Where the Blood Angels focus on Gracefull Aerial Assault (mov/assault movement to the jump infantry (like the raven guard) and give the Skilled rider to Skimmer and Flyer), the Flesh Tearers focus on Savage Ground Assault (Move Trought Cover).

 

This way things are quite balanced. And even the Relics illustrates the differences. (Notably the Grisly Trophies....or the Eviscerator.)

[SnorriSnorrison]

You realize furious charge is largely because of the red thirst, right? Even if it wasn't The blood Angels and all of their successors would share that, considering they all originate from the same point. There will be slight differences, but not really enough to warrant a full chapter doctrine change.
Just like technically, according to codex space marines, successors share their parent chapter's doctrines.

Gotta agree with this. Furious Charge is not a doctrine, it's like a reverse mental disease that makes you stronger instead of weakening you. That's one POV, at least.

If we were in C:SM, our chapter doctrines would (probably/hopefully) be something like the current 'Angels of Death'; we might also have a set of rules similar to the Templars in 6th that will allow us to use Baals, Priests, SG, DC, Furiosos w/FragCannons and overcharged engines, and perhaps even our own assault squads(meltas anyone?).

Listing that up actually shows how much work it would be for GW to fold us into C:SM...like another codex within the codex.

Month ago, in another topic, i said something about the successors chapters :

- Some are like the Blood Angels, embrassing the more noble aspect of the Blood Angels nature. Those are the Angels Encarmine, the Blood Drinkers, Notably.

- Some are like the Flesh Tearers, embrassing the more savage aspect of the Blood Angels nature. Those are the Knights of Blood, the Flesh Eaters, Notably.

We born of a Twin-Nature Chapter, Noble and Savage, like Fallen Angels we are no more Angels yet we are not Deamon either. Some have White Wings, other Black Wings. That is our difference with all the other chapters.

So, i took this fact to harmonize the vision of what the Two chapters Doctrine are.

Both share the Furious Charge that the Thirst give them.

But were the Blood Angels focus themselves on the artistic aspect (+1 init), the Flesh Tearers focus on the brutal aspect (Prefered enemy : infantry)

Where the Blood Angels focus on Gracefull Aerial Assault (mov/assault movement to the jump infantry (like the raven guard) and give the Skilled rider to Skimmer and Flyer), the Flesh Tearers focus on Savage Ground Assault (Move Trought Cover).

This way things are quite balanced. And even the Relics illustrates the differences. (Notably the Grisly Trophies....or the Eviscerator.)

Emphasis mine.

First of all, I'm really appreciating the work you're putting in here!

Going through those points it seems that you might be a bit off with your interpretation. Fluff-wise, the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers don't really have a choice but charge at some point, the Red Thirst is always there. They can't switch it off and employ a different set of doctrines, because the RT isn't a doctrine at all. The difference is the discipline the two chapters put on their members, where the FT have mostly given in to the madness(pre- till present Seth state), the Blood Angels concentrate mostly on keeping the Thirst in check.

Rules-wise, using the word 'artistic' for the initiative bonus might be just as misleading as the fact that we're getting the bonus through a formation. It is a side-effect of the Red Thirst. So in my opinion, both the Flesh Tearers and Blood Angels(and all other Sons of Sanguinius!) should benefit from it when charging.

Giving four quite potent special rules to the FT(FC, +1 init, move through cover and preferred enemy) to the usual FT strike force is a bit over the top. While I'd like our BA to be strong, I don't want them to be stupidly overpowered like the Wolves used to be, with a buttload of special rules on their regular infantry. Not exactly what I'd call balanced. :)

I believe that Explosion of Bloodlust + all of the above is enough for anyone to be happy with their Flesh Tearers. I'd cry a happy tear(hah, see what I did there? ) if BA got anywhere close to that in the next version of the codex.

Just my thoughts.

Snorri

[Frater Antodeniel]

For Everyone, in order to help understanding how i work, here is some part of the Ressources i used :

 

First i reflect in the Blood Angels past, nature...etc. What Chapters are the more like us, Shadow & Mystery ones (DA and RG) ? no, FireAdoraters (Sala) ? no, Defensive/Codex one (IF/Ultra) ? no, MachineLovers ? no, Ferocious Assault (WS) ? yes.

 

Then Compare the White Scars with the Blood Angels :

 

One have their bikes, the others their jump pack, ok.

Both are Assault Force nature based.

 

Ok since, those point shown a clear ressemblance with the two chapters, lets compare the two Chapter Doctrines :

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood Angels, Chapter Doctrine Benefit :

 - Furious Charge special rule.

 

Blood Angels, Chapter Detachment Benefit :

 - +1 Initiative when on charge

Flesh Tearers, Chapter Detachment Benefit :

 - Rage on charge roll of 10"+

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White Scars, Chapter Doctrine Benefit :

 - When on Bike => Skilled Rider special rule + add 1 to the strenght of the Hammer of wrath.

 - Hit and Run special rule + reroll the dice when determining run move (Fleet rules....)

 

White Scars, Chapter Detachment Benefit :

 - Reroll Hit and Run failled initiative dice

 - Turbo-boost with additional 1d6 for bikes and skimmer, and plus 2d6 if flyers or fast vehicle

 - Hammer of Wrath on charge on charge roll of 8"+, or reroll HoW failled hit if already under HoW.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

LETS COMPARE THEN....

 

Edit :

BA Doctrine (1 special rule, a medium one, since it only work on charge)

WS Doctrine (2-3 special rule, two strong one, first since the bike can go through dangerous terrain while our jump pack unit cannot without test,  second, Hit and Run, a powerfull rule that work in all close combat fight should you charge or are charged..., and Third, a minus of the fleet special rule since WS can reroll the dice on run move....)

 

By following this fact => BA/FT need at least 2 strong rules/advantage and a minus one. Furious charge being a medium one, we need at least

one medium+medium, or strong+minus.

[Xenith]

On the whole Red Thirst Issue.

 

I agree with Antodeniel. The BA keep the rage in check, and channel it to improve their combat abilities.

 

Flesh Tearers are more like Berzerkers, and get a different bonus than the protection I5 offers, such as Hatred (I think preferred enemy: Infantry is too strong, as it works in shooting also).

 

The Hatred gets them lots of hits, but against MEQ, ensures they are hit in return, mutually assured destruction, which seems to be the FT thing.

[Frater Antodeniel]

MAJ :

 

1- Red Thirst : I removed the +1 Initiative from the chapter tactic

 

2- Chapter tactic, Murderous Instincts : Move Trought Cover is now only for Infantry units type.

 

3- Chapter tactic, Murderous Instincts : Preferred enemy (infantry) is now only for infantry/walker/bike units type. (I think that reroll shooting of 1 can be keep, since it isn't impossible to imagine a ferocious Flesh Tearers Tactics/Devastator aiming his shoot with keen eyes when targeting infantry units....)

 

4- Strike Force Benefit, Explosion of bloodlust : I bring it back from 8" to 10". I think 8" was to powerfull since it can grant +1 attack to enraged unit, an already powerfull thing, so 10" is ok, since only true warriors that thirst for blood could run such a distance....

 

Blood Angels Version Incoming....

[Frater Antodeniel]

Blood Angels Version published. I delete many "useless" explanation of this and that about the Flesh Tearers Doctrines/Relics/Detachment to make things clearer.

 

For the Blood Angels, i try once again to use fluffy rules for the Doctrines and the Detachment benefits. (I didn't touch to the relics, but since BA were at the Battle of Terra, i give them the possibilitie to took C:BA and C:SM relics. )

 

 

Read it, and give your opinion on the work. =)

[Quixus]

You can only charge after deep strike when you scatter less then 6". So even with Descent of Angels there is still a 1 in 18 chance of not being allowed to charge. right?

[Frater Antodeniel]

Quixus : The Idea if to give Blood Angels an Advantage with Deepstrike when using Jump Pack or Teleportation, First.

 

Second, when you roll, their is 2/6 chance that you do a "perfect landing" and 4/6 chance that you scatter.

 

Third, When you scatter, without the "Descent of angels", jump units have 1/2 chance to scatter less than 6", and with/without "Descent of angels" Terminators will always have a 1/2 chance.

 

Of course, this rule is made to be in synergie with Dante "Descent of angels" This making sure that jump pack units can charge after deepstrike. But i can understand that i look quite powerfull, and i thinked to only reserve it for "perfect landing hit roll"....but then again, i would have made it too random....its hard to think of something fluffy and powerfull but not too much....

 

(Otherwise, you have WS Doctrines, riders that ignore dangerous ground, have +1jink cover, add +1 force HoW, and can Hit and Run.....with WS Detachment rule that give them Reroll on hit and run, +D6 on turboboost, reroll failed HoW on +8" charge....so...).

[LutherMax]

Being able to charge only on direct hit is waaay too open to chance. You could go game after game with that never happening, totally ruining your tactics. So if that idea flies it has to be when scattering less than x"

[Arkangilos]

I will probably stand out here: while in favor of the charging from deep strike with jump pack and drop pod deep strikes, I'm against charging from teleport deep strike.

[Omega-soul]

I think we don't  need another bycicle

 

BA doctrine

Furious charge (redthirst)

Scatter d6 less from deep strike (descent of angels)

 

BA chapter tactic +1 int/ws on charge

FT chapter tactic rending on  charge

 

BA never was a gentle in a way of mobility as raven guard, so no MTC

FT never was a skilled combatant on contrary they are more rude and savage

 

And there is  another issue that SM doctrines are expendable while these are constat.

 

And charge from deep strike should be unit-specific rather than army-wide rule

[Frater Antodeniel]

Arkangilos : Maybe you're right for the Teleport part, maybe thats too much.

 

Omega-soul :

BA doctrine

Furious charge (redthirst)

Scatter d6 less from deep strike (descent of angels)

 

BA chapter tactic +1 int/ws on charge

FT chapter tactic rending on  charge

 

 

 

Furious Charge, Ok and include

Scatter d6 less from deep strike (descent of angels) => I don't touch to warlord trait

 

BA chapter tactic +1 init/ws on charge is way to situational. Not reliable at all to base a whole viable strategy on. I prefer giving a perma +1 init.

 

FT chapter tactic rending on charge is situational and can in the case of Death Company be to much powerfull ==> OP, so no, furthermore, rending is more of a weapon ability than a warrior ability.

 

 

And there is  another issue that SM doctrines are expendable while these are constat.

Those Datasheet are about FT and BA Chapters Tactics and Detachment Benefit. Not About Doctrines that is a SM/Ultra Marine thing. =)

[redshadow]

I understand what your trying to do with the erratas but i honestly don't see the point...

I know if i tried using this in my play group they'd laugh me off the table and to be honest again if some tried using home made rules against me i'd probably politely decline.

there's nothing wrong with using allies formations with the red marines to get what your looking for, just look at it like our codex encompasses all other marine books, detachments and formations... with there own unique rules

Allies lets us do almost anything at the minute i'm running archangels detachment with the skyhammer annihilation force and there all painted blood angels.... anything special from another codex i'd paint up death company but most of the time red marines do the trick

[LutherMax]

I gotta say, I agree with redshadow. The whole 40k game since 7th Ed is designed to be mix & match. We all need to get out of the mindset of being restricted by a specific codex book...

[Frater Antodeniel]

I understand those who don't see the point in this specific SoB/BA : Errata/Amendments. I'm not against those who, in game use allies.

 

But, i'm quite a fluffy purist in some extend^^. So by the fluff, if Blood Angels and some other successors like the Angels Encarmine/Blood Drinkers have a good reputation, others, like Flesh Tearers/Knight Of Blood/Flesh Eaters are desperate allies for the rest of the imperium....if not enemies of some other chapter (Flesh Tearers and Spaces Wolf are mortal enemies since Honor End...).

 

BUT, the whole question that my Erratas provoks is this, What happens when someone want to play 75-100% Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers ?

 

Personnaly, when i compare White Scars (SM : Codex+the new datasheets) and Blood Angels (Blood Angels+Flesh Tearers SoB datasheet), i can only cry at the difference of treatment.

 

The Fact that their is 8 month of difference is one thing, that can explain somes minor/medium differences, not HUGE difference.

 

Were the Rule Team too lazy to do a proper 6-8 lign of Blood Angels Chapter Tactic when editing the Codex/SoB supplement ? I thing they didn't took the time to even re-read what they had done.

 

 

Finally, i made those Erratas as a starting point in order to improve our codex in the Future. I send those to GW, even if they will never respond (maybe a "Blood Angels" guy of the GW rules team will go to the Blood Angels Sub-Forum to see what people speak about........i don't know^^).

 

 

It isn't being Restricted that to desire to be Respected. What most Blood Angels players isn't an "OP Codex of the Death that kill everything"....but simple equality of treatment while looking at what other Space Marines Codexes have. (Notable the C : SM).

 

 

(I DEFY ANYONE : When comparing the Kauyon book and the SoB book, i defy anyone to say that the same amount of work have been put into the two. Such a thing is for me impossible to imagine. The New Kauyon book is clearly a finished product while the SoB is only 75 %....but they are at the same price...).

[Omega-soul]

Arkangilos : Maybe you're right for the Teleport part, maybe thats too much.

 

Omega-soul :

BA doctrine

Furious charge (redthirst)

Scatter d6 less from deep strike (descent of angels)

 

BA chapter tactic +1 int/ws on charge

FT chapter tactic rending on  charge

 

 

 

Furious Charge, Ok and include

Scatter d6 less from deep strike (descent of angels) => I don't touch to warlord trait

 

BA chapter tactic +1 init/ws on charge is way to situational. Not reliable at all to base a whole viable strategy on. I prefer giving a perma +1 init.

 

FT chapter tactic rending on charge is situational and can in the case of Death Company be to much powerfull ==> OP, so no, furthermore, rending is more of a weapon ability than a warrior ability.

 

 

And there is  another issue that SM doctrines are expendable while these are constat.

Those Datasheet are about FT and BA Chapters Tactics and Detachment Benefit. Not About Doctrines that is a SM/Ultra Marine thing. =)

 

1- descent should be compartable with that  trait - previously dante gave tactical precision which gave us no scatter deepstrike - so why not?

2 - situational it is - because  it's a GW position - BA get only their bonuses on charge - and  i'am  pretty sure they will not change that in future

3 - for permanent  int/ws - corbulo with priests

4 - it is as powerful as situational - and DC without any special characters are quite suck for their price. And many pseudo-rending rules for 6-es would argue about powerfulness. Have you see skitari and eldars or at least genestealers?

[Frater Antodeniel]

I was thinking, thinking....etc, and maybe the presentation of the idea behind the topic wasn't the clearer. So, i think things may need a different point of view, so, i will provide a presentation for you to contribute to this "project", to see what are your ideas about "what could have been the Flesh Tearers advantages if the Shield Of Baal : Exterminatus expension had been  like the new kauyon book".

 

(One things that i won't change : The Grisly Trophie and the Eternal Guardian, i really think that those two are welcome the way i designed them, while not being OP. But for the Memor Nihilis and the change of the Bone of Baelsor, you can have ideas =) ).

 

Here is the Presentation for you ideas :

 

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Flesh Tearers :

 

Chapters Tactics (Replace the "Furious Charge" by "Chapter Tactics" in your mind) :

 

Minor Rule/Advantage : Furious Charge

 

Medium Rule/Advantage  : Move Through Cover => for Infantry Unit Type

 

Major Rule/Advantage : Prefered Enemy (Infantry) => for Infantry, Walker, Bike

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Relics :

 

Memor Nihilis : Advantage ? Rule ? Not Unwieldy ? Rampage ?.....etc

 

Bones of Baelsor : "I give it the venerable rules, but do you share this point of view ?"

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Command Benefits, Explosion of Bloodlust :

 

"I just added that units that already benefits from rage, those units have a +1 attack....i think it make this rage/+1 attack powerfull enough, but do you agree for the +1 attack ?"

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Formation Ideas that are not adaptation from the book, so use your mind to form an idea. use the others formations as exemples and share your idea of formation. =)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

(You can cut the parts of this presentation, you won't work on. Keep the presentation form, please =).)

 

Edit : I remove the Blood Angels Part of the First post, since this topic i dedicated for the Shield Of Baal : Exterminatus Errata. (I will see if i make a Blood Angels post of this kind, but first, i will use this one as a test.)

[Jolemai]

Sorry, but I haven't got the time to read and reply in depth on here yet. However, I would suggest changing the title of the thread to include something like "homegrown rules" (or at least tag it in) as this is not an errata.

 

Other than that, how about allowing Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts to take the Flesh Tearers Warlord Traits?

 

Hopefully I'll have time to offer something constructive in the coming weeks...

[Frater Antodeniel]

Jolemai :

 

First :  Since i was "working"/"thinking" on the Chapters Tactics yesterday on spare time, i think that i will make the "BA Red Thirst" Merge with the "FT Red Thirst" (FC and +1 perma initiative), and i would need to rework the second pure FT advantage. So if you or anyone else have an idea, express it.

 

That would look like that :

 

Red Thirst : Furious Charge. Permanent +1 initiative. (Small and Big Advantage). Oh yes, i really things that the +1 Initiative clearly establish the BA and Successors as the kickest of the astartes when needing to unlock the blades... =)

 

Murderous Instincts : ? , Hatred ? Move Through Cover ? Preferred Enemy (Infantry) ?....etc  ( One Small/Medium Advantage, Blood/Assault/Berserker Based).

 

 

Second : For the Librarian Dreadnought, i don't imagine that anyone could argue about the Flesh Tearers Warlord Traits, furthermore, this Shield of Baal FTSF errata, is more about what the SoB : Exterminatus should have looked like, if more work/love had been put into it. (SoB : Exterminatus FT vs Kauyon RG & WS).