RULES - Unified Pariahs

[Grifftofer]

Well for the rules bits:

• Grave Stalkers would use their current rules for the purpose (One of their rules forces daemons to re-roll invulnerable saves in melee - could possibly increase it to 12" range to match the daemon rule).
• Wardens of Light would likely not apply the Ld or manifest penalties to friendly models (And maybe a small side benefit too).
• Godslayers could perhaps have increased range for the deny/manifest abilities (drawing a bit of a blank here).
• Warriors of Peace I think would perhaps get a lesser version of Fear (only applies a -1WS rather than setting it to 1), which would still be cancelled by Fearless.

 

The Nemesis would probably get the additional bits from the second section as standard making them equivalent to a Sister of Silence Leader, but with Preferred Enemy rather than Hatred (Psykers). We would be required to rework some of the special units that have already been written though, which would be the main difficulty. Plus possibly some changes to the Primarchs too.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Naaa, stay with nemesis. But of course we could have different kinds.

 

Nemesis focussing on cc is a death knight, nemesis focussing on anti warp shenanigans could be the oblivion knight and so on

 

Hmmm the coimheadair jump to my mind. However they could still function as the empyryan manipulator increases their range. Nothing which win't fit to the sisters rules.

 

Sith still have their counts as anti psygrenades.

 

But what about the primarchs? Kawil and Gwal have lots of pariah rules.

 

Of course we could use this as a chance to implement additional things which devrloped over time. Lime the "lost in the void and that stronger enemies may blind warden pariah. For example.

Edited February 21, 2017 by MikhalLeNoir

[~Drakzilla~]

Not so hot on having different kinds of Nemeses. There should just be one general type, comparable to the Librarian consul.

 

Primarchs could have the highest level of core pariah rules but with their own powerful additions.

 

Personally, changing the way pariah rules work won't affect the Warriors as much, since they only have the Nemesis consul for their pariahs. But my two cents is that more consistency with rules is always a good thing.

[Grifftofer]

I think that I agree that the Nemesis should just stay as a single Consul and not get broken up into specialities.

 

As for the Primarchs. Gwal's mask I think would work well enough as it is, we just need to tweak the rules he gets when it is removed. For K'awil his Pariah (Alpha) rule will be straight swapped for the new rules. Koschei I guess could be more tricky, but I'll wait for Squig to drop in before I suggest any radical changes :P

 

I guess that expansions on the Pariah rules would make the most sense, rather than reinventing the wheel. If the three (Koschei, Gwal and K'awil) all ended up with different focuses that would be great for variety's sake if nothing else :P Koschei I guess would probably keep the ability to auto deactivate blessings within 6", Gwal could maybe cancel the generation of Warp Charges within 12" rather than 6" (once his mask comes off). And K'awil would probably keep his Instant Death on attacks and re-roll failed DtW across the board.

 

What do you think?

[~Drakzilla~]

I am okay with these changes. But then again, Jade isn't a pariah anymore, so no problem on my part. \/(º-º)\/

 

Also, another suggestion for name changes: Anyone in favor of renaming the Anathema Blade to Null Blade/Weapon? Anathema always sounded clunky to me, and too similar to the Anathema Blade.

[Grifftofer]

Well the names for the two special rules for the Sisters are Psychic Anathema and Ex Oblivio (I'm assuming we'll stick with these as we aren't changing the rules in them). So maybe changing the name of the Weapon to something else would be warranted.

[MikhalLeNoir]

I want to keep Gwals penalties when he takes the mask of as I love this fluffy design. But then there must be a benefit taking it off or else why bother to take it off. How implement his soul sucking ability in a positive way?

 

And. Taking the powers.directly.from the sisters is imo good for the nemesis, however i see a pariah primarch a step.above. so what would a level over the best sister looks like?

Edited February 23, 2017 by MikhalLeNoir

[Grifftofer]

That is pretty much what I was suggesting. The Pariah Primarchs would have an aspect that is beyond even the greatest of the sisters (as per my suggestions above).

 

As for Gwal's rules in specific: he has so many (and most of them have changed at least once over his development) that I struggle to remember what he can do without the rules being in front of me :P

[MikhalLeNoir]

Lol. That is true. His penalties involve a ld test. If not the everyone gets a wound. Friend and foe^^.

 

I think the new stsrt could help us to easen his rules a bit.

 

 

This are the rules for his mask which also are his pariah rules

 

WARGEAR

The Mask "mwgwd ddi-rym": Given to him by the lady of the lake to let him control his pariah powers, this archaic device is capable of focusing Gwalchavad's powers into a coruscating blast of energy which rips apart the target at the atomic level resulting in complete disintegration.

 

Range Strength AP Rules

Mask 12" 1 2 Assault 1, Piercing Gaze, Life Drain, Aetheric Blast

 

Piercing Gaze: All shots with this weapon are precision shots.

Life Drain: When used against a Psyker this weapon gains the Instant Death special rule.

Aetheric Blast: This weapon has a to wound roll based upon the Mastery Level of the target hit. ML0: 4+ to wound, ML1: 3+ to wound and ML2+: 2+ to wound.

 

Finally Gwalchavad may unmask himself and let his nature run rampant. He may choose to unmask at the beginning of any of his turns at which point he may no longer make use of his mask as a ranged weapon. However Gwalchavad gains the following benefits, these changes last until the end of the game:

All fear checks caused by him are at -2 Ld

He may re-roll any failed Deny the Witch rolls.

Any attacks he makes in close combat gain the Soul Blaze and Murderous Strike special rule. If the attacks already have Murderous Strike then the number required to activate it on the to wound roll is reduced by one.

All units (friend or foe) within 6" must, at the beginning of each turn, make a Ld test which is made a -1Ld. For each point the Ld test is failed the unit suffers a wound with no armor saves allowed.

OR If the dice rolled for Warp Charges during the Psychic phase is a 6, then place the large blast template over his head. Every model touched (friend or foe) suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed and the instant death special rule

Edited February 23, 2017 by MikhalLeNoir

[Grifftofer]

Dammit. I forgot to reply to this :(

 

Ok. So the first thing I would suggest is that the Aetheric Blast get expanded slightly so that it can affect vehicles with the Psychic Pilot rule. I suggest giving it the Haywire rule and adding that it gets +1 on the roll on the haywire table when used against a vehicle with the Psychic Pilot rule.

 

Then we'd basically rip out all the post mask removal stuff and replace it with the Psychic Anathema and Ex Oblivio stuff. Then to add in an added downside and to bring back some of the life draining theme from before we could add: Non-psychic models in base contact at the beginning of the psychic phase must make a Leadership test or suffer 1 wound with no saves of any kind allowed. In that way it would supplement the psyker part so psykers suffer the perils on a failure and non-psykers just suffer a wound. The psyker then has a limited defense against the effect (not all perils results are bad), but also has greater risk (some perils results kill outright).

 

What do you think?

[MikhalLeNoir]

Can you write it out in rules speech? Is easier for me^^.

 

I would like to keep the heavy downside. I just feel it is more fluffy.

 

For the rest I think it is okay as tpu describe it.

[Grifftofer]

Can you write it out in rules speech? Is easier for me^^.

No problem :)

 

Finally Gwalchavad may unmask himself and let his nature run rampant. He may choose to unmask at the beginning of any of his turns at which point he may no longer make use of his mask as a ranged weapon. However Gwalchavad gains the following benefits, these changes last until the end of the game:

• Complete Immunity to any powers that target/would effect them. Plus an immunity to the effects of Telepathy Blessings used by units against them (no Invisibility shenanigans here)
• -1Ld (-2 if Psyker) to all units within 12". Fearless units and other Pariahs ignore this modifier.
• Units within 12" must re-roll Deny the Witch.
• Daemons within 12" suffer -1T (vehicles suffer +1 to rolls on the damage table instead).
• -1 to rolls to manifest psychic powers within 12" (increases to -2 if in base contact).
• Models within 6" do not generate Warp Charges.
• At the beginning of the Psychic Phase place a Large (5") Blast Templatte over Gwalchavad's head. Any models touched (friend or foe) must roll a Leadership test. Upon failure non-Psykers suffer a single wound with no saves of any kind allowed. Psykers cannot cast powers and roll on the Perils of the Warp tables with a -1 penalty.

This would replace all the parts after the mask's ranged profile and special rules.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Looks great. Wanna add this too

en the number required to activate it on the to wound roll is reduced by one.

All units (friend or foe) within 6" must, at the beginning of each turn, make a Ld test which is made a -1Ld. For each point the Ld test is failed the unit suffers a wound with no armor saves allowed.

[Grifftofer]

Well the second of those abilities has sort of been subsumed into the last bullet point. As for the improved Murderous Strike I'm not sure he really needs it. And he is already gaining a large amount from taking off the mask I'd be wary of adding too much so it becomes the automatic option to remove the mask as soon as he gets into combat (I'm not sure that it isn't already).

[MikhalLeNoir]

Ahh. Now i understand. Maybe he can't remove his mask when in the round he gets into cc?

I saw more the penalty than the benefit.i wanted to jabe the big penalty.

 

 

Then he gets the new guilliman attsck rule. As a sidenote: what do you think of this.

 

The Sword has a crazy rule. You can chose to do as many attacks as there are models in any units within 1" of Guilliman, and he hits those units. So if you charge 30 guys that's 30 attacks.

 

 

And no, gwal.will not get this. Never ever. Just interested.on griffts.opinion.

[Grifftofer]

Well a bit of quick maths shows that it's a rule that would get more powerful based on how big his base is and how small his enemies' are. I'm guessing he'll be on either a 60mm or 80mm base which puts the maximum number of possible attacks at (about) either 20 or 26. Assuming that you crowd the models in a tightly as possible to ensure maximum carnage. It's a still a horrendously powerful ability to have especially with the Strength, AP and other special rules his weapons come with. It's not something I'd expect to ever see on a FW-esque Primarch though, because with the level of kit they have it can easily wipe squads out. (I believe one of the Knights had a similar rule, but it only hit those in base to base)

[~Drakzilla~]

Amazing what a 10,000-year nap can do for one's combat prowess.

 

Quick question. Since the Warriors of Peace's only access to the Pariah rules is through the Nemesis consul, would it be reasonable that their additional Pariah power be a bit more potent in relation to the other legions'? Or would that be unbalanced?

[MikhalLeNoir]

Thx for the insight. I thought.it was powerful but thought gw would never put something like thst out. Oh well he is slow and as monstrous creature a target for lascannons^^

[Grifftofer]

Amazing what a 10,000-year nap can do for one's combat prowess.

 

Quick question. Since the Warriors of Peace's only access to the Pariah rules is through the Nemesis consul, would it be reasonable that their additional Pariah power be a bit more potent in relation to the other legions'? Or would that be unbalanced?

That might be reasonable, depends on what you're thinking of. I think we were considering a Fear-lite rule for them before, but if they only have access through the Nemesis maybe full Fear? Edited March 4, 2017 by Grifftofer

[~Drakzilla~]

Full-blown Fear can work, might seem a little off thematically, but nothing a little fluff blurb can't fix.

[Grifftofer]

I guess, but Fear is fairly thematically viable for Pariahs generally and you were wanting a rule to interact with WS in some way to emphasize their martial abilities. So it seemed appropriate.

[simison]

For the Godslayers, I recommend giving them warp charges on the enemy's psychic phase, since they're more of Suppressors than outright Blanks. Actually, in which case, should they have the Psychic Anathema rule? Or Ex Oblivio? 

[Big Bad Squig]

Koschei I guess could be more tricky, but I'll wait for Squig to drop in before I suggest any radical changes http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png

 

I guess that expansions on the Pariah rules would make the most sense, rather than reinventing the wheel. If the three (Koschei, Gwal and K'awil) all ended up with different focuses that would be great for variety's sake if nothing else http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png Koschei I guess would probably keep the ability to auto deactivate blessings within 6", Gwal could maybe cancel the generation of Warp Charges within 12" rather than 6" (once his mask comes off). And K'awil would probably keep his Instant Death on attacks and re-roll failed DtW across the board.

 

What do you think?

 

I'd be happy to rework Koschei's rules to fit over the baseline Sisters of Silence pariah rules if that would be best.  If I were to do that, I'm guessing it'd be based on the outline that Grifft posted on the previous page? (I don't have book 7 so I'm not really clear on the Psychic Anathema/Ex Oblivio rules)

 

 

For the Godslayers, I recommend giving them warp charges on the enemy's psychic phase, since they're more of Suppressors than outright Blanks. Actually, in which case, should they have the Psychic Anathema rule? Or Ex Oblivio? 

 

Extra warp charges for Deny the Witch could work for the Godslayers, maybe doing something similar to the way channeling used to work in WHFB where each pariah unit rolls a dice at the start of the enemy psychic phase and on a 6 a dice is added to the warp charge pool.  Alongside universal Adamantium Will that would definitely put the Godslayers' focus on denying enemy psychic powers rather than the other aspects of the Sisters rules.  Do people think an idea like that would be feasible?

[Grifftofer]

 

Koschei I guess could be more tricky, but I'll wait for Squig to drop in before I suggest any radical changes http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png

 

I guess that expansions on the Pariah rules would make the most sense, rather than reinventing the wheel. If the three (Koschei, Gwal and K'awil) all ended up with different focuses that would be great for variety's sake if nothing else http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png Koschei I guess would probably keep the ability to auto deactivate blessings within 6", Gwal could maybe cancel the generation of Warp Charges within 12" rather than 6" (once his mask comes off). And K'awil would probably keep his Instant Death on attacks and re-roll failed DtW across the board.

 

What do you think?

 

I'd be happy to rework Koschei's rules to fit over the baseline Sisters of Silence pariah rules if that would be best.  If I were to do that, I'm guessing it'd be based on the outline that Grifft posted on the previous page? (I don't have book 7 so I'm not really clear on the Psychic Anathema/Ex Oblivio rules)

Well the Paychic Anathema and Ex Oblivio rules are as follows:

 

Psychic Anathema

• Models with this special rule are immune to all psychic powers and cannot be affected by them. They also ignore the effects of any Telepathy Discipline Blessings on enemy units which would negatively affect the models which have the Psychic Anathema special rule. This effect does not extend to Transport vehicles used by models with this special rule.

• All units within 12" of any model with this special rule suffer -1 to their Leadership value, increasing to a -2 penalty if the model is a Psyker. Models who have the Fearless special rule or who themselves have the Psychic Anathema special rule, are not subject to this effect (although models who are just immune to Fear are). Note this affects friend and foe equally.

• Units within 12" of models with the Psychic Anathema must re-roll failed Deny the Witch Tests.

• All units with the Daemon special rule within 12" of any model with Psychic Anathema suffer -1 to their Toughness, or if they have an Armour value instead of Toughness, they add +1 to all rolls on the Vehicle Damage table they suffer when within this range.

• All models with psychic powers suffer a penalty to their roll to manifest psychic powers when near any model with the Psychic Anathema special rule; this penalty is -1 when within 12", increasing to -2 when in base contact. For example, if a Psyker usually manifests their powers on a roll of 4+, this becomes 5+ when within 12" of any model with the Psychic Anathema special rule, and 6+ in base contact.

 

Ex Oblivio

• Psychic models or units of any kind within 6" of models with this special rule at the start of their Psychic phase do not generate additional Warp Charge dice.

• If any Psychic model is in base contact with a model with this special rule at the start of any Psychic phase, they must immediately make a leadership test before Warp Charge is rolled for. If this test is failed, they immediately suffer Perils of the Warp at -1 and may not use any psychic powers during this Psychic phase should they survive this.

 

In addition to this K'awil has a rule that forces daemons to re-rolls invulnerable saves within 12", the Instant Death rule on his combat attacks and a battlefield wide +1 to DtW rolls. All of these are technically part of his Pariah abilities, so I could see Kosheii doing something similar.

 

Given his suppressant nature perhaps he could add dice to the Warp Charge Pool (but only in a defensive manner) as well as maybe inflicting the -1 to manifest powers battlefield wide, and the -2 within 12"?

 

For the Godslayers, I recommend giving them warp charges on the enemy's psychic phase, since they're more of Suppressors than outright Blanks. Actually, in which case, should they have the Psychic Anathema rule? Or Ex Oblivio? 

 

Extra warp charges for Deny the Witch could work for the Godslayers, maybe doing something similar to the way channeling used to work in WHFB where each pariah unit rolls a dice at the start of the enemy psychic phase and on a 6 a dice is added to the warp charge pool.  Alongside universal Adamantium Will that would definitely put the Godslayers' focus on denying enemy psychic powers rather than the other aspects of the Sisters rules.  Do people think an idea like that would be feasible?

Well the Grave Stalkers now don't have any additional benefit on top of the Psychic Anathema rule to show their nature. With the exception of the Blacksouls who also have the daemons re-roll invuln saves within 12" rule. So perhaps the rule you suggest could be something to give to your suppressor squad? But maybe with each model rolling (thus incentivising bigger squads)? That way they would roll 10-20 dice giving an average of ~2-4 dice boost to your pool per squad, which is pretty significant.

 

If I recall correctly only the Suppressors will have the Psychic Anathema rule (as only they were using the Pariah rules from before)? If so then the re-roll effect given by the Suppressors/Nemesis' as well as the bonus dice and possible +1 from Adamantium will should make for a fairly hardy army in terms of psychic defense. It actually makes for an interesting dichotomy (assuming you go with the bonus dice rules) as the Grave Stalkers will be immune to direct effects from powers, but not be very able to disrupt buffing powers, where the Godslayers will have greater ability to disrupt enemy buffs (more dice), but will be generally more susceptible to direct attacks (fewer immune units).

[foamy248]

Bit off-topic to where this thread is going sorry, but I wasn't sure where else to put it. Do we have a fluff reason for why so many primarchs are pariahs? Or does each primarch have his own individual reason?