New Techpriest Model - Veteran Tank Commanders?

[march10k]

Q: How many tanks does a guard player need?

 

A: One more!

[WarriorFish]

Let's be fair, we were all once lost and alone without a tank to our name even if it was too long ago to remember for some ;)

 

With GW's new excitement in releases I'm reasonably optimistic we'll get some nice stuff when our update finally rolls around. Until then I'm more than happy for little updates to the range like this :)

[greycat]

@librisrouge

What sort of list are you running? Or are you a fresh commander :)

[librisrouge]

I don't like to brag...ok, I do but it's unseemly all the same. I've been playing IG for twelve years, on and off. Still haven't finished painting a single army mind you. I'm a bad hobbyist, I guess. Mechanized has been the bulk of my lists and lately my basic list has been simple.

 

IG CAD-

CCS and Veteran Squads in Chimeras

 

Steel Host Formation (because sexy)

 

I also tend to give my officer Kurov's Aquila. Now my army has two preferred enemy bubbles for marine+ level accuracy.

 

I like demolishers and exterminators the most of all the Russ builds, with executioners a close third. I have yet to try the punisher. I don't know why. I have just never felt any call toward it, even with Pask. I prefer heavy armor over light, but I've given all of the artillery a try. I still dig the manticore and respect the medusa. I wish the earthshaker were better. Hellhound variants are nice, with many players rightly swearing by them, but never seem to work out in my hands. I like AV14 I guess.

[Emicus]

Librisrogue what's the big appeal behind Exterminators for you?:)

[march10k]

Librisrogue what's the big appeal behind Exterminators for you?

I'm interested in that, too...Exterminator and executioner seem to me like the least useful tanks...plasmacutioner is bad to me because a demolisher gives you a bigger AP2 blast...at S10...without getting hot. The only real advantage of the executioner seems to be that you can, if you're lucky, overwhelm a squad of thundernators with multiple required 3++ saves per model..if they're tightly grouped and you don't get hot or roll badly on scatter...not that you're likely to get to shoot at them before they step out of a crusader and maul something.

The exterminator...well, I have a lot of veterans with autocannons, so it just doesn't add any capability to my army, although other lists may be short on S7 shooting. I'm also not that much of a fan of the punisher, since I have plenty of S5/6 shooting in my list, but if you're shooting infantry with your exterminator, the punisher would seem to be better. That said, exterminator is AP4, and paired with three heavy bolters, it would be really good at killing stormtroopers, fire warriors, etc...so I'd call it "situational," not "bad."

[Guardsman1275]

My favorite way to run the Exterminator is as a commander with a lascannon and an eradicator buddy, I was suggested this by someone on this forum and it worked really well in a game I played this weekend. If you can spare the points add camo netting and maybe some bolters for the exterminator

[librisrouge]

Librisrogue what's the big appeal behind Exterminators for you?

Exterminators are the ultimate generalist in my opinion. I've never taken a game where they were not able to contribute in some meaningful way, even if they weren't an obvious MVP candidate. Every other Russ has its weakness. Punishers and Demolishers have to get too close. Against thunderwolves or imperial knights, this is suicidal if they fail to kill their target in one go. Vanquishers struggle to matter against armies that don't rely on their vehicles. Battle tanks only come into their own against marines in the open. Eradicators only come into their own against light infantry in cover. Executioners want multiple +2 save infantry to be worth their risk and investment.

Exterminators don't care. They're like honey badgers that way.

Most armies that have tanks at all have light armor (rhinos, etc.) and the exterminator autocannon loves it some light armor.

It pumps out enough shots to matter against even +2 saves, without having to get as dangerously close to the enemy as a punisher might (and with improved accuracy to boot.)

Monstrous creatures are going to have to roll more save, which every guardsman knows means more wounds dealt.

Even marines have to respect the fistful of dice that and exterminator with three heavy bolters can throw down.

Ditto for light infantry. Got a +2 cover, fine, make eight of them. Do it again next turn. One bad roll for the enemy is all it takes.

It even works as impromptu AA fire. Hive crones hate it.

Like I said, I've rarely looked at my exterminator and seen my MVP. I've also never looked at it and regretted the points I spent on it.

I regularly take it as my Steel Host tank commander, all heavy bolters and a heavy stubber, with a similar (usually sans the stubber) squadron mate. Their throwing down eighteen heavy bolter shots, eight TL autocannon shots, and three heavy stubber shots, at BS 3/4 with preferred enemy. Informing the marine player that his demisquad of tactical marines will now be rolling fifteen saves is fun and my brother-in-law has come to appreciate how much his points spent giving thunderwolves stormshields no longer matter.

I'm interested in that, too...Exterminator and executioner seem to me like the least useful tanks...plasmacutioner is bad to me because a demolisher gives you a bigger AP2 blast...at S10...without getting hot. The only real advantage of the executioner seems to be that you can, if you're lucky, overwhelm a squad of thundernators with multiple required 3++ saves per model..if they're tightly grouped and you don't get hot or roll badly on scatter...not that you're likely to get to shoot at them before they step out of a crusader and maul something.

You basically nailed it on the head. Where I take the exterminator knowing it will do almost anything ok, I take the executioner because sometimes, but only sometimes, it'll earn twice its points back in one salvo. Steel Host helps a lot since I'm wounding most things on 2s anyway and it puts the safeties back on. Plus, while it isn't hard to spread guys out to limit damage, it is frustrating for the opponent to have to do so. This leads to them making mistakes sometimes. Also, one to three inch scatters often yield more hits than a direct hit.

Pask in an Executioner is fun as hell. The large blast is nice and I love it when I successfully blind necrons.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Has anyone run a 4 plasmacutioner steel host with plasma cannons? That seems like it would be absolutely devastating in a lot of circumstances.

 

 

I'll have to try an exterminator now. I've never really thought they looked good before.  

[librisrouge]

The problem with that many executioners is that you're too niche for your own good (ditto with Exterminators unless you go with the lascannon/multimelta build I've been tempted to try.) There are just too many things that aptly counter it. One of the pleasures of taking a Steel Host is getting to take a sampling of Russ types so that I have an answer to most, if not all, problems.

[Emicus]

Hmmm I dunno. I feel like I get enough Multilasers (yes S6 vs S7 from Autocannons), but there's even more shots as well, that stacking up on a durable autocannon platform doesn't feel like all that.

​I've considered them for for a sort-of anti-air though. So many shots (with greater range than the Punisher).

[Guardsman1275]

Well in my last game the Exterminator in the HQ squad I mentioned earlier certainatly pulled it's weight. with BS4 and twin linked you will usually hit most of your shots, this should not be underestimated. Cost is another factor and a BS4 lascannon is also very powerful. I think the reason why the Exterminator is so well liked on this forum is what it brings to the table, you have anti infantry, light tank, and air firepower in one AV14 hull for 135 points with no upgrades. There is little that can match that value which only goes up if you add a lascannon, meltas or even just more bolters. I suggest you try one out in your next game, you may be surprised at all it can do. I was skeptical at first but after trying it in a game I agree it is amazing. Still not convinced on the eradicator though, for a gun that fires nukes it has surprisingly low strength. But I do like making eldar cry so I keep one around, being the cheapest AV14 vehicle in the game helps it find a way into most lists I make. I mean for the price of a hellhound you can get an ignores cover large blast autocannon with AV14? Sign me up.

[WarriorFish]

I only relatively recently came around to the Exterminator. It'll never be the main dish but as libris said it can be a great support tank and fill gaps, very much another take on the generalist standard Russ. So while I may look to the other variants first when building a list when I'm looking for help or support the Exterminator is always a consideration.

[Guardsman1275]

  The basic Leman Russ is also great in a fire support role, with a massive range and ability to destroy MEQs it can really do work.

[march10k]

Hmmm I dunno. I feel like I get enough Multilasers (yes S6 vs S7 from Autocannons), but there's even more shots as well, that stacking up on a durable autocannon platform doesn't feel like all that.

 

​I've considered them for for a sort-of anti-air though. So many shots (with greater range than the Punisher).

 

And I have multiple BS4 autocannons with 3+ cover saves and ten wounds :-p

 

 Still not convinced on the eradicator though, for a gun that fires nukes it has surprisingly low strength.  [...] I mean for the price of a hellhound you can get an ignores cover large blast autocannon with AV14? Sign me up.

 

I love the Eradicator.  The combination of AP4 and ignoring cover is one of the most powerful things in the game, against anything lighter than power armor (which, frankly, is most things in 40k), it's better than a battle cannon.  The comparison against the Hellhound is an apt one, they cost about the same, yet the Eradicator is far killier AND far more survivable.  The only real advantage of the hellhound is speed.  That matters, but in no way makes it worth anywhere near close to the same as an Eradicator.

 

  The basic Leman Russ is also great in a fire support role, with a massive range and ability to destroy MEQs it can really do work.

 

This.  "only good at killing marines in the open" is about the most inaccurate one-liner I've ever heard.  It's great at forcing tons of saves on anything it touches.  Marines in cover?  Their cover save is going to be less than their armor save.  If the target goes to ground, frankly that's better.  Kill 1-2 models less, but the survivors, all of them, not just the extra ones, are combat-ineffective for a turn.  The idea that a battle cannon that isn't killing ten marines a turn is somehow sub-par is...crazy.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You need to kill 10 Marines to pay for the thing.

[WarriorFish]

It hits hard enough for a low price to still be useful. Hunting down light armour would work too and it only takes a squad of Scouts for it to find a delicious target, it's a specialist tank so there will always be bad match ups but that's the price you pay for it excelling. That and a unit doesn't necessarily have to earn its points back, that's a metric I've never agreed with.

[Emicus]

I'm not sure if a models merits are purely assessed based on if it kills the equivalent to it's own cost @coffeegrunt. The durability to take on some shots that would shred a Wyvern for example, it's hard to put a hard and fast value on that.

​There's a couple things I like about the Battle-tank
​- Strength is high enough to instant death a lot of models
​- Template, even with a large scatter you'll never fail to get the shot off, depending who you face, there's a large chance you'll hit something regardless
​- S8+re-roll pen dice vs vehicles, while not dedicated anti-tank in anyway, is a sure sight better than most

​The range. It's bleeding 72".


​There's also the big money shot that will shellshock whoever you play into the next five games you play, or at least keep marines in cover instead of advancing up the board as they please.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I'm not the battle tank's biggest fan just because most of my opponents are guard too. It's not the best anti guard vehicle we've got. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, it's a bit of a jack-of-all-trades. Can't do anti-tank too well, doesn't really do anti-vehicle that well, it's alright against MCs and only good against Infantry if they're not already in Cover. I mean, it's a decent tank, but it's not particularly great at anything, and mine always seem to under-perform.

[WarriorFish]

The standard tank is useful in any role, but can't compete with a specialist in any particular one. Against single tanks and such it can do ok, but it shines against multiple tanks as that pie plate will be striking them all at full strength! We have plenty of Russ types to take, make sure you take the one best suited to your environment ;)

[march10k]

Yeah, it's a bit of a jack-of-all-trades. Can't do anti-tank too well, doesn't really do anti-vehicle that well, it's alright against MCs and only good against Infantry if they're not already in Cover. I mean, it's a decent tank, but it's not particularly great at anything, and mine always seem to under-perform.

That's quite an overreach.  I completely agree that it's not good at anti-AV13/14.  On the other hand, it's pretty good at penning AV12 and down.  The only way your statement that it's only against infantry if they're in the open stands up to scrutiny is if your standard of "good" is that it kills 5/6 of everything it touches (accounting for ones to wound).  That's an absurd standard, the only thing that meets that test is an AP2 cover ignoring weapon!

 

It's a good tank for three reasons: Large blast, strength eight, and effectively unlimited range.  Saying "yes, but it doesn't ignore cover and isn't AP1" comes very close to complaining that it's not a D weapon.  It's about like saying that melta weapons are meh because they're heavy/assault one.  It's true, and it's a limitation, but you can't have everything, and having almost everything is pretty good in the final analysis.  The basic leman russ is better than most alternatives at any given task.  So if you have a very specific mission in mind, there's a better tank out there.  If you need your tank to cover two or three bases, there probably isn't a tank out there that does all three jobs very well, and the russ can do them from the back corner of your deployment zone.

[Guardsman1275]

You cannot have everything unless you play tau, then your rockets become D weapons . But on the topic at hand I always take a LRBT, the ability to hit literally anything on the table cannot be underestimagted, and there is no list that it is really weak against, yes other tanks can outshine it in some situations, but no tank can handle every situation as well as it can. The only games my LR did not do good work were the ones it got killed turn 2 by outflanking Dark Eldar, CURSE THE COWARDLY XENOS

[CyderPirate]

Hmmm

I started writing how over-rated the LRBT is, but mid- sentence I realised I had probably underestimated the old beast.

I think its probably just better used  to support your other stuff and plug gaps than fulfilling any particular, specific role.

 

The fact that its alright at everything means you're never going to want to rely on it for anything, but it'll still do the job. 

[Guardsman1275]

Exactly, you do not take the LRBT because you want to kill one thing, vanquisher deals better with tanks, punisher is better for hordes, demolisher is better for a close support tank, executioner kills TEQ's, Exterminator is better against aircraft and light tanks, Eradicator is better against light infantry, but only the Battle tank can fill all of these roles, (except AA but you have the hyrda for that) and that is why people like it. With guard chosing your guns is very important you need to strike a balance and try to take guns that can counter everything, for example, should youn take a heavy flamer or meltagun with your vet squads? both are good but which is better? No squad the AM can take can deal with everything at once, and unless you are way better at list building than me your list will have some holes. And that is where the battle tank shines, it can fill a hole in your list. Not enough AT weapons? LRBT can handel it, Not enough anti MEQ weapons? LRBT eats marines for breakfast, not enough long range AT? LR is decent at that as well. That is why the LRBT is good, with the other LR tanks you have to anticipate what your opponents will bring, not so with the LRBT, Demolisher and Exterminator, that is why people take them in their all comers lists, they are not weak against anything.

 

 

TLDR; LRBT is good against everything, therefore it is great overall