Rumoured Imperial Guard codex in february

[Jolemai]

Whilst I agree with you that free Chimeras are too powerful, they will move to being Fast Attack (or Emperor forbid, Elites). Dedicated Transport is simply an upgrade choice; it's not a FoC slot on its own and GW have been moving away from that.

 

Yes we may well see Terminators in Chimeras going forward...

[HenricusTyranicus]

I actually am fond of giving my guardsmen Rhinos and my marines Chimeras. It's much more suited to each, respectively. 

 

And if they don't make them available as a Fast Attack, it will be the first codex in a long time that hasn't had all it's dedicated transports become takeable as FA.

[WarriorFish]

I suppose it might be useful for units that don't get the choice when they should, but it still feels weird. Plus I need those FA slots for all my Sentinels and Hellhounds...

[Jolemai]

I suppose it might be useful for units that don't get the choice when they should, but it still feels weird. Plus I need those FA slots for all my Sentinels and Hellhounds...

 

Which is where multiple Detachments comes in. These days 40k is so flexible that FoC restrictions really aren't a problem. Also, your list wont be any different; if a platoon selects a Chimera as part of its options, then it doesn't take up a FA slot and you can still take your Sentinels, Hellhounds, etc.

[Emicus]

Regardless of how wrong it would be to put Chimeras in the elite slot, it's much less populated with good options in comparison to Fast Attack.

​But hopefully some of the new formations will allow greater freedom in taking multiple single units rather than forcing us to group e.g. Russes together. I'd rather get 3 single tanks than 3 squadded ones and a special rule (the special rule would have to be pretty damn great to compensate).

[HenricusTyranicus]

Aye. I think it's worth noting that Guard are basically the only army you can make a totally viable list without using a single elite slot. Frankly, that's awful. Chimeras being moved to elites would fail, however, certain Russ varieties being elites, or a veteran platoon option would be awesome, help balance our FoC out a little. 

 

And I agree I'm hoping for either more options for single Russes, or some pretty nice rules for taking 3. Something like "Ignores the Ghostkeel's broken cheese" sounds like an ideal special rule ;) In all seriousness, something like being able to fire ordnance and Sponsons would really fit the bill. 

[WarriorFish]

We'll see what GW has in store for us soon enough comrades! As long as we get more options rather than the opposite I won't be complaining. One thing I am adamant about though - aside from new plastics - is that we get some serious squadron/numbers bonuses. After all Guard pioneered it so we should get suitable compensation for others getting it too... :P

[Sete]

Put Sly Marbo on elites again.

[mertbl]

0-1 Veteran Tank squadron as an elite choice would be fitting.

[march10k]

Out of curiosity, do you think that when Chimeras inevitably become fast attack in the new codex, it will change how we use them? For example, maybe use them for Special weapons teams to get flamers/melta/demo charges in the enemies face? Ogryn priest delivery? Just wondering, I have little experience using them. 

You mean fast attack in addition to being dedicated transports?  Or instead?  If they stop being dedicated transports, that'd be absolutely horrible.  As fast attack, they'd be inferior to sentinels.  Part of what makes them great now is objective secured and not taking an FOC slot.  When you could score from inside a transport (and their points dropped significantly), they finally became good.  Then we had the period when you had to get out to actually cap the objective and their value went down again, in spite of being both a battlefield taxi and a way to keep T3 models with a 5+ save alive longer.  Now...now they superscore while empty by virtue of being a superscorer's dedicated transport.  Solid gold. 

 

If you can get them as free-standing fast attack choices in addition to being able to take them as dedicated transports, it will still be better to take them as dedicated for the purpose of conferring superscoring on them.  Even if you take them for a veteran squad, but park that veteran squad in some ruins with an autocannon while letting a demo squad from a neighboring platoon use their ride, it will be useful for the chimera to be a superscorer.  So even then, only take fast attack chimeras after maxing out your allowance of dedicated transport chimeras...which I don't see happening, but it's possible. 

 

If you want an AV12 heavy weapon platform in an elites slot, you already have that in an armored sentinel.  The armored sentinel has access to a much wider variety of weapons and has a WS value.  I can't see a situation where a non-superscoring chimera that isn't carrying troops would be a better choice.  So...maybe if you're not putting a single boot in the mud and you want a heavy weapons squad or some other squad that can't take a dedicated transport...in that situation, a fast attack chimera would be useful.

 

 

@march10K: I don't engage with blowhards, so this will be my last exchange with you.

 

Now, that's rich, coming after your condescending snark...more like you disengage when people push back against your own patronizing twaddle.

[Canadian_F_H]

Veteran tanks (tank ace) would be cool... They had those in 3rd edition second book of the astronomicon.

 

He was an elite slot, any Leman Russ variant, bs4, + a special rule... Nowadays tank hunter monster hunter etc. Could work...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

The Tau got denied a decurion (at least from what I can tell), but they gained some helpful stuff, like units of riptides, larger crisis teams, and some decent formations. I hope a true decurion is in store for us.

The Tau got a Decurion. It allows multiple units to fire as if they were one unit. It's incredibly strong against single, tough targets.

 

Can you point me to a page number, I've gone through the bloody thing a number of times and I seem to bee missing it. I've seen all the formations, but not a FOC of formations like in the CSM, CDA, or Necron books.

[Sete]

Since it seems GW is taking a good turn these last few months, I will send an email asking for a Sly Marbo Dataslate.

I mean, every guard player should have one right?

[Terminus]

Everyone plays in potentially very different metas where there will inevitably be stronger and weaker units for it. Chimeras make for good transports and respectable gun platforms, capable of putting a lot of shots out especially if you get a few on the table. Protecting the infantry inside is great even more so with the firing point capability, the main drawback is they're not particularly cheap. That's why they won't ever be free because it'd let you spam the board with AV12 pillboxes who could easily drown infantry and light armour in dice, leaving the rest of your army to handle the rest. I don't see them moving to any FOC slot either, they're dedicated transports only.

Rhinos and Pods were all exclusively dedicated transports at one point too.

 

We are in the Era of undying Necrons that gauss everything to death, Eldar troops roughly the cost of a chimera that can kill the chimera and the content in no time flat, Convocations that basically get a free Knight and a couple of hundred points of haywire and plasma weapons for free, Tau stealth cadres that treat all our vehicles as AV10, and Space Marine armies that can drown you in bikes, drown you in top of 1 charges out of deep strike, or drown you in 20 objective secured units and vehicles, an in any of these cases further hose you down with grav on everything.... whew, and we have people in here raving about Chimeras. SMH. leaveH.

[cypherthefallenangel]

1. I would like to see voxs get a spotter rule for our artillery similar to DKoK forward command tanks rule.

2. Bring back our f'ing artillery tanks with a new kit. They need it bad.

3. Give back the old transport capacity to the vendettas and drop the points to 150.

4. Make rough riders playable. Like death riders.

5. Lower russ points and get rid of the gets hot rule on the executioners main gun.

6. Give us forge world vehicles options. Specially on the chimera.

7. Make the deathstrike missile a destroyer weapon.

8. Give the volcano cannon a +1 on the destroyer chart.

9. Make hellguns S4 AP3 and bring back combat doctrines.

10. Add regimental doctrines for Cadains, catachen, steel legion,etc.

11. More wargear options for everything.

12. Make company commanders independent characters and CCS upgradable to 10man squads

13. Allow basic infantry squads to take another special weapon if not taking a heavy weapon.

14. Make shotguns better so we have a reason to take them. Like S4 AP6 assault 2 @18".

15. Tank commanders that can give orders to other vehicle units. Like FW ones can.

[Myrkul]

Out of curiosity, do you think that when Chimeras inevitably become fast attack in the new codex, it will change how we use them? For example, maybe use them for Special weapons teams to get flamers/melta/demo charges in the enemies face? Ogryn priest delivery? Just wondering, I have little experience using them.

So far having dedicated transports available as fast attack has been the theme (for whatever thats worth) for every 7th ed codex, so its reasonable to assume we'll see chimeras, taurox and taurox primes as fast choices.

 

Theyll still stay as DT's for units that have been able to take them in the past like rhinos etc.

[march10k]

 

Everyone plays in potentially very different metas where there will inevitably be stronger and weaker units for it. Chimeras make for good transports and respectable gun platforms, capable of putting a lot of shots out especially if you get a few on the table. Protecting the infantry inside is great even more so with the firing point capability, the main drawback is they're not particularly cheap. That's why they won't ever be free because it'd let you spam the board with AV12 pillboxes who could easily drown infantry and light armour in dice, leaving the rest of your army to handle the rest. I don't see them moving to any FOC slot either, they're dedicated transports only.

Rhinos and Pods were all exclusively dedicated transports at one point too.

 

We are in the Era of undying Necrons that gauss everything to death, Eldar troops roughly the cost of a chimera that can kill the chimera and the content in no time flat, Convocations that basically get a free Knight and a couple of hundred points of haywire and plasma weapons for free, Tau stealth cadres that treat all our vehicles as AV10, and Space Marine armies that can drown you in bikes, drown you in top of 1 charges out of deep strike, or drown you in 20 objective secured units and vehicles, an in any of these cases further hose you down with grav on everything.... whew, and we have people in here raving about Chimeras. SMH. leaveH.

 

Speaking of blowhards...  By the way, some of our better tanks are "treated as" AV11, not 10.  That's relevant to all the burst cannons in the Optimized Stealth Cadre.

[WarriorFish]

Ok that's enough of that, there's nothing to be gained in tit for tat. Discussion is what the B&C is for, but not if it can't be done properly. Either I start seeing that now or the bolt pistol comes out.

[march10k]

1. I would like to see voxs get a spotter rule for our artillery similar to DKoK forward command tanks rule.

2. Bring back our f'ing artillery tanks with a new kit. They need it bad.

3. Give back the old transport capacity to the vendettas and drop the points to 150.

4. Make rough riders playable. Like death riders.

5. Lower russ points and get rid of the gets hot rule on the executioners main gun.

6. Give us forge world vehicles options. Specially on the chimera.

7. Make the deathstrike missile a destroyer weapon.

8. Give the volcano cannon a +1 on the destroyer chart.

9. Make hellguns S4 AP3 and bring back combat doctrines.

10. Add regimental doctrines for Cadains, catachen, steel legion,etc.

11. More wargear options for everything.

12. Make company commanders independent characters and CCS upgradable to 10man squads

13. Allow basic infantry squads to take another special weapon if not taking a heavy weapon.

14. Make shotguns better so we have a reason to take them. Like S4 AP6 assault 2 @18".

15. Tank commanders that can give orders to other vehicle units. Like FW ones can.

 

So...all you want is more cheese for fewer points?  LOL.  OK. So does every other codex.

 

I  like 1, 6, 7, and 8.  12 is interesting.

 

I think for the vendetta to get its old transport capacity back, it would have to go up in points cost.  It was flat out broken when it cost the same as a valkyrie.  I think the points cost is fair now, since it's balanced to be inaccessible to most squads.  Honestly, I'd be happier to have a transport capacity of zero and a drop to 150 points...but being able to put vets and kasrkin in it would be a massive jump in capability, and there'd have to be a points hike involved...unless you think 170 points for a flier with three twinlinked lascannons, which by the way trumps air superiority fighters from EVERY codex for air to air in spite of being a ground attack flier, is too much?  I mean, compare that to a thunderbolt, the premiere imperial air-to-air fighter, which costs more and is less killy.

[HenricusTyranicus]

 

Everyone plays in potentially very different metas where there will inevitably be stronger and weaker units for it. Chimeras make for good transports and respectable gun platforms, capable of putting a lot of shots out especially if you get a few on the table. Protecting the infantry inside is great even more so with the firing point capability, the main drawback is they're not particularly cheap. That's why they won't ever be free because it'd let you spam the board with AV12 pillboxes who could easily drown infantry and light armour in dice, leaving the rest of your army to handle the rest. I don't see them moving to any FOC slot either, they're dedicated transports only.

Rhinos and Pods were all exclusively dedicated transports at one point too.

 

We are in the Era of undying Necrons that gauss everything to death, Eldar troops roughly the cost of a chimera that can kill the chimera and the content in no time flat, Convocations that basically get a free Knight and a couple of hundred points of haywire and plasma weapons for free, Tau stealth cadres that treat all our vehicles as AV10, and Space Marine armies that can drown you in bikes, drown you in top of 1 charges out of deep strike, or drown you in 20 objective secured units and vehicles, an in any of these cases further hose you down with grav on everything.... whew, and we have people in here raving about Chimeras. SMH. leaveH.

 

Free chimeras would be massive cheese, but the man does have a point about what every other army gets. I hugely doubt free Chimeras, and I think it would be OP, but even if it were to happen it would not be the most OP thing in the game. 

[march10k]

 

 I hugely doubt free Chimeras, and I think it would be OP, but even if it were to happen it would not be the most OP thing in the game. 

 

 

Well...I'm in the same camp...and I have nine of them ready to go as it is...what? it's "only" 585 free points in an 1850 list... If they combined that with allowing FW turrets, OMG!!! 

 

Elite tanks with BS4 and a special rule (as mentioned earlier) would be nice, too...the free chimeras would pay for three of those with points to spare!  I'd think that elite sentinels would be more likely, though...move armored sentinels to elites, bump them up five points, and give them BS4?  That'd be about a 1/3 increase relative to scout sentinels, that's probably fair for the AV12 front and the pip of BS, considering side and rear armor and still only 2HP.

[Terminus]

My 1850 point Convocation list clocks in at closer to 2400.

[WarriorFish]

Guard have more claim to getting boat loads of stuff on the table than most. My wallet perhaps is less keen on the free models but I do need more things for the next ETL...

I've changed my mind. Give us all the broken stuff, it's time for the Guard to stand at the top of the hill for once!

[march10k]

 

 "only" 585 free points in an 1850 list...

 

My 1850 point Convocation list clocks in at closer to 2400.

 

 

1850+585=2435...and that's just using the nine chimeras I already own.  Who knows what the maximum viable number of free chimeras would be? 

 

A standard platoon can currently have six chimeras, and the minimum cost of the infantry involved is under 300 points.  If the theoretical formation allowing free chimeras used standard platoons as its building blocks, you'd only need two maxed out platoons, costing around 700 points if you just give every squad an autocannon (random example) to get about 800 points in free chimeras...you would find yourself running out of deployment zone long before you maxed out on free chimeras, and be forced to put a lot of stuff in reserves...I could see a 3500 point list at 1850 being a possibility with free chimeras, and that would "only" require 1400 points to be spent on the units getting free chimeras.  under 1150 points to get 1600 points worth of free chimeras if you give the guardsmen no upgrades, leaving 700 points for 4-5 other units (tanks, vendettas, whatever).

 

But...that's kind of the reason we assess that there won't be free chimeras.  The free transport would "cost" more than the squad riding in it!

[Terminus]

No one said to change the cost of the Chimera to 0 across the entire codex. There are plenty of ways to give a few free transports where it would be reasonable. For example, a mechanized formation of 1 tank commander, 3 veteran squads, a Hydra (because they like to stick crap into everything with guard), and say an artillery battery. That's a potential Core choice like a battle demi-company. If you take two (as a random example), the veterans get free chimeras. Now imagine unlike the Gladius or Lion's Blade, these units lose objective secured, which is apparently 80% of the value you put in the tank. So there, 6 free chimeras at the cost of taking 2 hydras and losing objective secured on your troops. I promise you, the world will still be here tomorrow.

 

And it doesn't even have to be chimeras. We just want free stuff. Say a platoon with 3 infantry squads automatically gets a free heavy weapon team. If it's a platoon with 5 infantry squads, it gets two free heavy weapon teams. Etc. et al.