Blood Angels DCTS and SGTS...would it shock you ? (30/11)

[Frater Antodeniel]

Yesterday, i was wondering about the lot of possibilities that our Fluff could offer in games units....

And there is one unit that can be our Blood Angels dedicated Lord Of War :

So, looking at the "Beta presentation" that i created, would it shock you to have such Lord Of War units ?

Informations :

Blood Angels Chapter tactics, as i imagine it : Furious Charge + Perma +1 initiative AND Skilled Rider for Skimmers and Flyers.

The Fear Special rule represent the sensation of someone charged by DCTS....and for the +1 Wound, i simply represent how far the Black Rage/Red Thirst can enhanced the body of some of the fallen Blood Angels...

25/11 : All hail the Sanguinary Guard Terminator Squad !

Futhermore, since it is Lord of War, it is limited to only 1 of this units, and the cost make its use reserved only for 1500+ games, so quite adapted to face other Lord of War units.

(Update 30/11/2015)

So, what's your point of view ?

[Charlo]

I'd say maybe go all out and give them hammer of Wrath? Also, option for SS/TH!

 

Maybe give them combis too, but I'm probably in Heresy/ spacewolf mode. DC get the pistol options so maybe combimelta/ flamer?

 

I do really like this idea, and by making it a LOW choice it opens up to a freer wargear options if you ask me. Basically a custom, two wound terminator squad as malleable as SW/ GK terms who kick ass.

 

Hell, you know what? Make the sarge a terminator chaplain. DONE.

 

Update like, 3?: make it a 3W Reclusiarch.

[Paikis]

I really don't think it's very fluffy. In-universe, Tactical Dreadnaught Armour is rare and extremely valuable, evenf or a chapter like the Blood Angels who have managed to retain more of them than most other chapters. As such it would not be given to deranged mad-men seeing images of their dead primarch and fighting visions of imaginary traitors.

 

I cannot see any justification for this unit existing.

 

What I would like to see though is a model for a Sanguinary Priest in TDA. +1 WS and FNP might go at least a little ways towards making terminators worth their points.

[SnorriSnorrison]

While I like the work you're putting into stuff like this(here and in other threads as well), DC Terminators don't fit into the background for me.

 

Either they'd have red armour(because the Red Thirst overwhelms them in battle and they go fully berserk) or they wouldn't be wearing terminator armour at all(succumb on the eve of battle - get stripped out of a terminator suit should the Marine be wearing one). Yes, sure, dire sititaions call for dire methods, but as it stands, losing a single suit of Terminator armour is, even for a chapter of the First Founding, a loss too terrible to let this pass.

 

Could make for a nice paintjob, though. Otherwise, I can't really justify any reason for that unit.

 

 

Snorri

[Teetengee]

I don't really see them fitting as a lord of war choice. Plus I am confused as to why they get or need 2 wounds.

[Phiasco]

Death Company Terminators makes no sense. Death Company members are intended to die in battle rather then continue in their insanity. They are to go in full berserk mode and die taking as many of the enemy with them as they can. Putting them in Terminator armour, which are considered to be sacred relics, would defeat the purpose. Sanguinary Terminators would make far more sense if you want an elite terminator unit.

[LutherMax]

But... Anyone can die in battle, and isn't the wargear and armour of all fallen brethren recovered for reconditioning if possible (just like drop pods have to be)?

 

I haven't read over the rules and stats so can't comment there but in terms of concept - I think rule of cool wins here over the subjective views on fluff compatibility.

[Xenith]

Death Company Terminators makes no sense. Death Company members are intended to die in battle rather then continue in their insanity. 

 

And regular terminators get sent on milk runs?

 

The first mission in Space Hulk is called "Suicide Mission". It's a good indicator of what jobs TDA wearers do day in day out.

 

Like the idea, however I'd steer away from additional rules. Just allow death company to equip TDA for +25 pts per model. Storm bolter and power fist standard loadout.

[Charlo]

But... Anyone can die in battle, and isn't the wargear and armour of all fallen brethren recovered for reconditioning if possible (just like drop pods have to be)?

 

I haven't read over the rules and stats so can't comment there but in terms of concept - I think rule of cool wins here over the subjective views on fluff compatibility.

 

This.

 

Instead of shooting him down, try and go positive, if you we're going to get them how would you want them? In my post above I took this route.

 

LoW is an awesome way to show thier rarity if you ask me :)

[Frater Antodeniel]

I'd say maybe go all out and give them hammer of Wrath? Also, option for SS/TH!

 

Maybe give them combis too, but I'm probably in Heresy/ spacewolf mode. DC get the pistol options so maybe combimelta/ flamer?

 

I do really like this idea, and by making it a LOW choice it opens up to a freer wargear options if you ask me. Basically a custom, two wound terminator squad as malleable as SW/ GK terms who kick ass.

 

Hell, you know what? Make the sarge a terminator chaplain. DONE.

 

No OP units^^. It is either Move Through Cover or HoW. No SS/TH for they are berserker and want to move freely^^.

 

For the Combi-XYZ, why not =). Since it is a units, you will have to had a chaplain to it, as a "sergent".

 

I really don't think it's very fluffy. In-universe, Tactical Dreadnaught Armour is rare and extremely valuable, evenf or a chapter like the Blood Angels who have managed to retain more of them than most other chapters. As such it would not be given to deranged mad-men seeing images of their dead primarch and fighting visions of imaginary traitors.

 

I cannot see any justification for this unit existing.

 

1 - As far as i know, the possibility of a DCTS is open.

 

2 - Second, indeed TDA are a rare think even for Blood Angels chapter(s). But, could you really say that, when the chapter very survival is in game, a chapter master couldn't authorize such unit to be formed ? (In term of rules, i still a 0-1 units of 5-10 DC terminators....so not so much considering the odd).

 

3 - Loosing Death Company in TDA also doesn't mean that you will never recover the TDA in question.....

 

4 - It is the kind of unit design to face the most potent unit. Would it really be sane to loose a chapter master and his 5 terminators squad to Gargantuan Creature ? Wouldn't it be more sane to teleport madmens to face desperate odd, knowing that they can do it...

 

5 - It is a Lord Of War unit, design to represent a chapter most powerfull unit. For exemple, between Dante+5Sanguinary guard, and, 5 DC Terminators, which one would you imagine to let charge a Gargantuan Creature ?

 

Fluff-wise, DC terminator isn't an impossible thing first, the TDA while rare, are also only use for the most dangerous/desperate missions....and you can still recover it after the fights...

 

But, fluff-wise, only the direst situation can call for such unit to be use.....as it is a double-edged weapon...but maybe the most powerfull one that the Blood Angels chapter can offer....

 

Edit :

 

 

Like the idea, however I'd steer away from additional rules. Just allow death company to equip TDA for +25 pts per model. Storm bolter and power fist standard loadout.

 

 

 

To represent the fact the overhelming power of the Rage that enhanced their body, i'm quite in the obligation to put them to WS5 and W2. For the rule, the Move Through Cover/HoW rule represent the will/strenght they possess, and for the Fear rule...well, just let your imagination do the work^^.

[LutherMax]

Also, what if a first company veteran who wears and has earned his TDA succumbs to the Black Rage? Would he be stripped of his personal relic and stuffed into any spare armour that could be found? Is that how an honoured hero of a thousand battles would be treated by our chapter? Or would he be given the chance to fight, once more into the breach, in his own most prized gear painted black in honour and grief?

 

There's the fluff for you.

[Teetengee]

Fluffwise, wouldn't the justification be the same as for the dreads? (more or less)

[Boudan]

A neat concept, thanks for throwing it out there.

[LutherMax]

Furthermore, doesn't Tycho retain his artificer armour in his Death Company guise?

 

So there's even precedent!

[SnorriSnorrison]

No OP units^^. It is either Move Through Cover or HoW. No SS/TH for they are berserker and want to move freely^^.

3 - Loosing Death Company in TDA also doesn't mean that you will never recover the TDA in question.....

replying to those two in particular, I do believe those are two points against TDA DC.

First, they'd want to move freely, and terminator armour even has the USR that you're not allowed to run down your opponent after a won combat because it's too bulky! Oh, and it has the bulky special rule.

Then, I do believe more often than not, that's what it means. Sending a squad of PA DC against a Hive Tyrant and Guard = PA DC dead, armour smashed, one half digested, the other half ripped to shreds no problem, we've got enough of that left. Sending TDA DC against a Hive Tyrant and Guard = TDA DC dead, armour smashed, one half digested, the other half ripped to shreds, well now we've got a problem! A chunk of the Emperor's own armour sent willingly into oblivion....

Also, what if a first company veteran who wears and has earned his TDA succumbs to the Black Rage? Would he be stripped of his personal relic and stuffed into any spare armour that could be found? Is that how an honoured hero of a thousand battles would be treated by our chapter? Or would he be given the chance to fight, once more into the breach, in his own most prized gear painted black in honour and grief?

There's the fluff for you.

As far as I've read(could be wrong, though), TDA is earned, yes, but it is never the Marine's own suit. It's more like a contract of lease for a couple of hundred years. And that Veteran used to have his very own suit of power armour still around in his marine-y closet, so no problem taking that, painting it black and put it on him instead of the suit that is basically invaluable.

Fluffwise, wouldn't the justification be the same as for the dreads? (more or less)

Well, the body in the dread would mean that's a dread without use once you take it out. It's not really the case with TDA armour, which could be given to the next aspirant, probably not throwing his stormbolter away trying to bite his foes through his helmet.

Furthermore, doesn't Tycho retain his artificer armour in his Death Company guise?

So there's even precedent!

That is indeed precedent, but then Tycho was a Captain, and at his peak supposed to follow up on Dante, should the Old Man ever lay to rest. He was the man!

Probably won't happen on 5 dudes simultaneously. And then, even mastercrafted armour isn't as precious as Terminator Armour, in the fluff at least. You know, with a chunk of the Emperor's own armour built in.

Terminators are sent into suicide missions, but we're talking about battle-hardened warriors that know what they're doing. The armour type even has 'tactical' in the name! Like in Bad Boys II, where's the tactic in running around, blowing stuff up including yourself?

Once a Marine succumbs to the rage, his past life in the Chapter is no more. No skills, no tactics, just madness. Why would I give a incredibly valuable piece of armour to someone who is not only as good as dead, but also wouldn't know what to do with it?

Not trying to belittle the effort Frater Antodeniel has put into his DIY rules - which I admire - it's only that from the background we have at hand, a DC Terminator squad sounds unlikely.

Snorri

[Arkangilos]

I have to agree with Snorri on this one.

 

It is awesome, though. I just don't think it would happen, short of them falling to the thirst during the battle (which would mean they are still Red)

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

That is indeed precedent, but then Tycho was a Captain, and at his peak supposed to follow up on Dante, should the Old Man ever lay to rest. He was the man!

Probably won't happen on 5 dudes simultaneously. And then, even mastercrafted armour isn't as precious as Terminator Armour, in the fluff at least. You know, with a chunk of the Emperor's own armour built in.

 

Once a Marine succumbs to the rage, his past life in the Chapter is no more. No skills, no tactics, just madness. Why would I give a incredibly valuable piece of armour to someone who is not only as good as dead, but also wouldn't know what to do with it?

 

Not trying to belittle the effort Frater Antodeniel has put into his DIY rules  - which I admire - it's only that from the background we have at hand, a DC Terminator squad sounds unlikely.

 

Thanks for recognizing the work =) (And for your participation too), but don't think i will weakened my arguments^^. So..... =)

 

First (even if not quoted) : Against Tyranids, everyone loose its armor, the argument is weak in itself ;s.

 

Second : "Probably won't happen on 5 dudes simultaneously." => Whole Strike Forces have sometimes fallen to the Black Rage.

The Rage didn't care if you are Veteran or scout, it is a psychic wind of madness that can took even a chapter master....in the second when he became chapter master....(The reason why both the Reclusiarch and the High Sanguinary Priest both test the future Chapter Master.)

 

Third : There is a major Fluff gap on the question : Does a marine retain is Personnals Warrior Skills when under the effect of the Rage ? As far as we know Chaplains, Captain, Sanguinary Priest and other Strong Willed Character can act as a leader of a Death Company and.....even.....put strategical plan on march....(Like the Chaplain that put a blow on Abaddon....and who manage to control his Death Company to remain Stealth....)

 

Personnally, about this point, i prefer to think that the marine trapped within the rage retain all his past warriors abilities/reflexes.

 

Fourth : An Artificer Armour can have more value than a TDA, like those of the Sanguinary Guard. And foremost, TDA are created by the chapter artificer(serf) or by the chapter astartes....so who best to wear a suit of TDA than his creator ?^^.

 

Fifth : For the "Bulky" aspect of the TDA.....let just say that at this point of madness, the fallen brothers don't even care about it anymore, a least it only push the limits of their madness further^^.

 

But, i will do a full PDF with the Codex/Supplement/Novels; arguments/counter arguments, as you point them.

[Crimson Devil]

Furthermore, doesn't Tycho retain his artificer armour in his Death Company guise?

 

So there's even precedent!

 

Yes he does. But the precedent is for officers to retain their armor when they join the Death Company. The picture above is of the Blood Drinkers Chapter Master after succumbing to the rage. Which to my knowlledge is the only time a Death Company Terminator has happened in the fluff.

 

I don't think the Blood Angels or a second founding chapter would do this. But it would be interesting to develop a successor chapter that viewed the Black Rage/Red Thirst as a blessing from Sanguinius use such a potent weapon.

[Xenith]

Anyone remember the "Death Company Army" rules published for 3rd ed white dwarf?

 

Add 25% cost to every unit, they gain Feel no Pain (equivalent) and +1A (if memory serves).

 

This was for every model in the army, including terminators.

 

Sometimes a whole battle company falls to the rage, including the chaplains. This can be after everyone is armoured, or in the middle of battle. No time to change suit. No time to paint tit black.

 

That's the fluff that the WD team came up with.

 

Saying something "Never Happens" in 40k is....against everything that the design team puts out.

 

Somewhere, somehow, in the 10,000 year existence of the Blood Angels as a chapter susceptible to the rage, there has been a squad of terminators that has succumbed and gone into battle in their TDA. 

 

It's kind of like saying...

 

Iron Warriors/Word Bearers/Night Lords/Black Legion are only Undivided. They never bear the mark of a single god in game.

Iron Warriors only fight sieges, it isn't IW if you don't have 3 heavy support choices.

[Teetengee]

Now, just because it has happened doesn't mean it should be a unit in the codex either; otherwise basically anyone could take anything. Talk about scenario rules even if it isn't a unit you will have access to every game if you decide that this is too far from normal procedures to be a "whenever' unit.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Now, just because it has happened doesn't mean it should be a unit in the codex either; otherwise basically anyone could take anything. Talk about scenario rules even if it isn't a unit you will have access to every game if you decide that this is too far from normal procedures to be a "whenever' unit.

 

So, following your point of view....the Sanguinor should be removed from the Codex..... =)

 

After all, should the Death Company Terminator Squad existing, it would tend to shortly outmatch the Sanguinor number of appearances...

 

(Within the Codex, you can find clue that clearly explain that the Sanguinor is a Folkloric history of the chapter....whose true can only be find within scrolls in the Reclusiam....)

[Xenith]

Now, just because it has happened doesn't mean it should be a unit in the codex either; otherwise basically anyone could take anything. 

 

...Isn't that what the whole hobby is supposed to be about? Take what you want, use what models you want?

 

Has anyone disagreeing with this been over to the Dornian Heresy pages to complain about the factual inaccuracies? Or mentioned it in the pretty nice Dornian Heresy thread that's going on at the moment? This is the same thing.

 

What if...some terminators succumbed to the rage, and went into battle in their TDA.

 

The restrictive, closed mindset regarding how a chapter/legion operates is the reason they removed 0-1 limits, allowed mix and match chaos marks, allies, removed restrictive legion rules, to combat the "Chapter X never uses this unit" attitude, which is bad for the hobby, and bad for GW's balance sheet. 

 

As with any other unit in the codex, if you don't like it, don't use it, but to say it cannot exist, or has never happened, then you're missing out on a big part of the mystery of the hobby and background. Ever seen Tycho fight Tau? Used him as Death Company Tycho against anything other than Orks?

 

Anyway, this is derailing the thread. Anything can happen in the 40k universe.

 

EDIT: Moriar (The Chosen). The Chapter's single, sole death company dreadnought. The exception to the rule that was so unique he was a special character dreadnought - Dreadnoughts being ancient and irreplaceable relics of the chapter, as Teetengee pointed out.

 

Then GW released models for DCD's and now they're ten a penny...despite not appearing in any official chapter roster.

 

If you use DCD's in game, then you can't complain about the sanctity and rarity of TDA and how it wouldn't be given to DC.

[Phiasco]

Even with all the arguments for it, I still don't think Death Company Terminators would ever make sense. Not in any way shape for form, not for any reason, not for love nor money, not with green eggs and ham, not with a can of spam, not in a boat, not even if it could float.

 

However, I do like the idea of an elite, or more elite, unit of terminators. Why not take these rules and tune them for something like Sanguinary Guard Terminators? For the captain or chapter master who likes the comfort and solidity of terminator armour over the freedom and mobility of a jump pack? One of them could even be a sanguinary novitiate for the feel no pain and charge bonuses. 

[Arkangilos]

 And foremost, TDA are created by the chapter artificer(serf) or by the chapter astartes....so who best to wear a suit of TDA than his creator ?^^.

 

 

Say what?!

 

They do NOT create their own Terminator Armor. That's part of the point of why they are so rare. Terminator Armor is almost impossible to replicate now. New suits "cost" a fortune, and take forever to make. They are RARE. 

 

"Probably won't happen on 5 dudes simultaneously." => Whole Strike Forces have sometimes fallen to the Black Rage.

 

Which it points out as rarely happening. And whole strike forces won't be painted black.

 

(Like the Chaplain that put a blow on Abaddon....and who manage to control his Death Company to remain Stealth....)

 

Not questioning this, but where is it from? That sounds like an interesting read!

 

An Artificer Armour can have more value than a TDA

 

Mmmm, not really.

 

 For the "Bulky" aspect of the TDA.....let just say that at this point of madness, the fallen brothers don't even care about it anymore,

Agreed. They don't care, but the chapter would care. They want them in as fast as possible.

 

 

@ Xanith

 

Sometimes a whole battle company falls to the rage, including the chaplains. This can be after everyone is armoured, or in the middle of battle. No time to change suit. No time to paint tit black.

Agreed. I am merely arguing against purposely equipping them with the most sacred of relics beforehand. For an entire strike force made up of death company, I find this unit fluffy and awesome. But *for the most part* I am against the chapter arming them with it.

[Servant of Dante]

While it may not be the MOST fluffy thing, I LOVE it! I want five, no TEN!

 

I vote no on move through cover, and yes on Hammer of Wrath, with a bonus to strength on the hammer of wrath, because at S4 its just disappointing.

 

I would find a Terminator Sanguinary Guard unit to be entirely more un-fluffy than this. Sanguinary guard where/are (whatever) the bodyguards of Sanguinius. You can't give them bulky armor that can't have a jump pack. THAT makes no sense.

 

Great work! I should post some more of my homegrown rules...