Blood Angels DCTS and SGTS...would it shock you ? (30/11)

[Arkangilos]

While it may not be the MOST fluffy thing, I LOVE it! I want five, no TEN!

 

I vote no on move through cover, and yes on Hammer of Wrath, with a bonus to strength on the hammer of wrath, because at S4 its just disappointing.

 

I would find a Terminator Sanguinary Guard unit to be entirely more un-fluffy than this. Sanguinary guard where/are (whatever) the bodyguards of Sanguinius. You can't give them bulky armor that can't have a jump pack. THAT makes no sense.

 

Great work! I should post some more of my homegrown rules...

There actually is official HH artwork with terminator bodyguards for Sanguinius. After all, when in the middle of a fortress or starship, he can't really fly, can he?

 

(It's in the Horus Heresy Art Books)

[Crimson Devil]

 

Has anyone disagreeing with this been over to the Dornian Heresy pages to complain about the factual inaccuracies? Or mentioned it in the pretty nice Dornian Heresy thread that's going on at the moment? This is the same thing.

 

No, that is a re-imagining of the setting. This is an addition to the existing setting. Following the in-universe rules adds to the setting, otherwise female and my little pony space marines are just as valid as this unit. So far no clever explanation has been given to why the Blood Angels would do this. I simply feel the idea isn't finished. Making it fit into the fluff helps, it doesn't detract from it.

 

 

What if...some terminators succumbed to the rage, and went into battle in their TDA.

 

 

Probably happens, but I doubt they paint their armor black beforehand. This proposed unit is a specific special unit.

[appiah4]

Forget DC terminators, we need DC Furioso Land Raiders; the Machine Spirit has succumbed to the Black Rage!

 

Seriously, no.

[Xenith]

 

 

What if...some terminators succumbed to the rage, and went into battle in their TDA.

 

Probably happens, but I doubt they paint their armor black beforehand. This proposed unit is a specific special unit.

 

 

See, we actually already agree on this! Once you can accept that at some point, few a marines will be equipped with TDA while suffering from the black rage, then it doesn't matter what colour they paint their armour - it's your hobby.

 

All I'm trying to do is promote something that the Chaos Subforums has been coming to terms with over the last years - That the structure of Chaos Warbands is identical to their army list entries, and anything else is heresy.

 

IW Have a preference for bombardment, but somewhere, in the 10,000 year history, there will have been an IW army that was 100 % jump pack equipped. Or maybe a Night Lords army that didn't have a single jump raptor.

 

We don't pooh-pooh someone for wanting to explore their vision of the army (anymore).

 

 

Forget DC terminators, we need DC Furioso Land Raiders; the Machine Spirit has succumbed to the Black Rage!

 

Seriously, no.

 

 

We already have death company transports, and death company dreads. Why not a DC Furioso? We could do this in the PDF codex.

 

The DC Furioso land raiders thing is just straw man fallacy - you're making up terms to make this proposition seem ridiculous, but yes, there are examples of machine spirits being extremely aggressive.

[Morticon]

Mod warning shots being fired.  

 

I've had posts edited -  Keep the trolling and baiting out, please gents.  

 

 

Generally, 

 

If you don't like specific ideas around DCTS, no problem, you're not obliged to like everything. Feel free to offer a suggestion for change within the scope of the OP's idea.

 

If you don't like the idea at all, and don't agree with it's existence - then cool, too.  No one needs to or has right to want to change your respective minds on it.  

But sharing those ideas here do nothing to develop productivity and engagement and as result are not welcome in the BA forum if they are not accompanied by productive suggestions/engagement.

 

TL;DNR:  

 

Yes = "X is problematic, but have you thought about Z?" 

 

No = "X isn't right.  Don't do it" 

 

 

[SM1981]

I may have missed something, but wouldn't teleporters slove the whole reclaiming tech thing.

 

I don't understand why you can teleport men into battle from an orbitting ship, but not teleport the suits back to an orbiting ship when the marines vital signs read dead.

 

And that's not just specific to this, surely it should apply to harvesting geneseed from every fallen marine ever.

 

Big hole in the fluff, or is it me missing something?

[Bukimimaru]

I may have missed something, but wouldn't teleporters slove the whole reclaiming tech thing.

 

I don't understand why you can teleport men into battle from an orbitting ship, but not teleport the suits back to an orbiting ship when the marines vital signs read dead.

 

 

I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure thats exactly what they do with Terminator armour.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I had a dream....or a nightmare, well whatever, i had a vision last night !

 

If one day a Plastic kit should be release for such DCTS units, would it be an exclusive kit or a multiple possibility kit like the DA Angels terminators kit ? I think it would be a multiple kit possibilities, at least 2....

 

So, today, on spare time, i will work on Both the DCTS.....and another Terminators Lord Of War units....here is the Hints about this unit....

 

N°1 : "The Blood Angels suffers from both the Black Rage, and the Red Thirst....."

N°2 : "Those overhelmed by the Black Rage end into the Death Company, while those who fall to the Red Thirst are imprisoned within the Tower of Amareo with unknow destiny....."

N°3 : "Until Mephiston, No Blood Angels have been know to escape from the Rage madness.....but what about the Thirst.....should it be possible that....those imprisoned within the tower of Amareo could manage to deal with the Thirst in some way.....those brothers should be rare.....and powerfull....."

 

(In my Exsanguinators homegrown rules, i have already been able to explore some possibilities that the Thirst could offers......and the Vampire aspect can be real cool and fluffy.)

 

The Dracul are coming, Dark reflect of their father, and one of the Blood Angels greatest secret whose face is never seen... (Yeah i know, but "Dracul" sound 20% cooler).

 

This way, with such a double unit kit, it would content the Pro-DCTS and the No-DCTS. Their is always an open door...=) (And i read both kind of comment and think hard to please everyone thoughs while keeping to the global BA fluff.)

[Charlo]

Eh, as much as I love the DC TDA, I think making them all super vampires goes a step too far and cheapens Mephiston/ Lemartes' fluff.

 

Its a cool idea though, like to see what you come up with. Sort of just feels liek they may end up as what Khorne Daemonkin wishes thier terminators were ;)

[Teetengee]

 

Now, just because it has happened doesn't mean it should be a unit in the codex either; otherwise basically anyone could take anything. 

 

...Isn't that what the whole hobby is supposed to be about? Take what you want, use what models you want?

 

-snip-

The restrictive, closed mindset regarding how a chapter/legion operates is the reason they removed 0-1 limits, allowed mix and match chaos marks, allies, removed restrictive legion rules, to combat the "Chapter X never uses this unit" attitude, which is bad for the hobby, and bad for GW's balance sheet. 

-snip-

 

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that he shouldn't use these. My main point is that there is and should be a divide between gameplay and fluff, because the fluff is so varied and so over the top that a game which was truly loyal to it wouldn't really work well as a game. Therefore the ideal codex doesn't replicate the fluff, but the feel of the fluff. Blood Angels are fast vampire space marines, Iron Hands are techy bionic space marines, Dark Angels are knightly and suspcious. Each of those suggests a certain playstyle and a access to a certain slice of the rules pie. It is similar to the idea of colour identity in Magic the Gathering. One has to be careful that each unit one makes homebrew rules for doesn't become a violation of that pie notion.

 

My point was not to say that things should be restrictive because they are rare. My point is that things should be restrictive so that each army maintains its own particular flavour. For instance, making homebrew close combat Tau Suit rules could work and be fluffy, but it would still be a bit off because such units would expand the Tau beyond their flavour slice. It isn't that they would even necessarily be broken, it just starts muddling the water. Now, I actually think the idea of Death Company Terminators is pretty cool, I could definitely see that being a theme for successor chapters even if the Blood Angels themselves don't do it. But I also don't play any of the loyalist factions very frequently, so I don't know if this would step on the toes of another army too much or not. I didn't mean to say the OP shouldn't make the rules, I just wanted the OP to really consider why the rules exist, and what effect that would have on list building for both Blood Angels, and other codices. For instance, would this be better served by just using the rules for Paladins? (probably not) and does this make Paladins obselete? If the answers to those kinds of questions are concerning to you and your play group, perhaps you should just use these on special occasions (scenarios? campaigns?) or at least playtest a bit to see if those concerns are realized. I just meant to advise caution, rather than say don't do it.

 

(as a side note about the Sanguinor and Tycho, special characters are all limited in time scope, but as long as they fit the faction identity (with a twist for uniqueness most likely) they work exactly as they are supposed to, from a game design standpoint)

[SnorriSnorrison]

I had a dream....or a nightmare, well whatever, i had a vision last night !

I have this feeling that I know what it's going to be for me

N°1 : "The Blood Angels suffers from both the Black Rage, and the Red Thirst....."

N°2 : "Those overhelmed by the Black Rage end into the Death Company, while those who fall to the Red Thirst are imprisoned within the Tower of Amareo with unknow destiny....."

N°3 : "Until Mephiston, No Blood Angels have been know to escape from the Rage madness.....but what about the Thirst.....should it be possible that....those imprisoned within the tower of Amareo could manage to deal with the Thirst in some way.....those brothers should be rare.....and powerfull....."

This way, with such a double unit kit, it would content the Pro-DCTS and the No-DCTS. Their is always an open door...=) (And i read both kind of comment and think hard to please everyone thoughs while keeping to the global BA fluff.)

Emphasis and editing mine.

Wouldn't the current global(or galactical? ;D) BA fluff be that Astorath shows up, beheads the marines in the tower and leaves to rinse, repeat someplace else? (Note: I'm not exactly a fan of that either, I kinda liked the obscurity about what's happening to the poor fellows up there).

Where as the Marines that have fallen to the Black Rage seem to have their basic skills still to 'em(we probably agree on that), those that have fallen to the Red Thirst in the aftermath of battle as well have been described as being even more 'gone' than the 'normal' DC members - that's why you gotta lock them up, because they don't even care what kind of blood they're drinking, friends' or foes'. Or their own, one might assume.

I believe this whole DC Terminators business feels a bit forced, as if not naturally imbedded in the background, even if GW were to shell out a codex next month and put them in there - I still feel that way about the Sanguinor and Astorath(to reference to one of your earlier comments, mate!) - the codex could well do without them.

Lastly, I agree with Charlo - having even more Marines suppress/survive the Black Rage/Red Thirst cheapens Meph's and Lemartes fluff. And that fluff is awesome.

Why am I so agitated by this, you may ask? I love the idea of the Death Company. It's one of the few remaining features still unique to the Blood Angels, and I feel going overboard with it(=spreading it across the entirety of the chapter) dilutes the taste of it. Also better explained by Teetengee.

On the other hand, for your own DIY chapter, no one will stop you going for it.

Snorri

[Boudan]

I would only be reluctant to paint some Blood Angel termies black because inevitably I'd be asked why I am running 30K Dark Angel terminators.

[Ovidius Incertus]

My first thought was "why LOW", but the argument of their rarity, rather than perhaps their raw power (like something like a Knight), makes sense.

 

I also don't see why Terminator armor would be held back.  It gets used, regardless of its rarity, and its wearers die with regularity in all the fluff--regardless of its rarity.  You salvage what you can and refurbish it.  It's no different than less rare power armor; you don't leave suits of power armor around, even if they can be manufactured anew more readily.

 

Cool idea, I think, and double chainfists or claws would be very fluffy.  Not sure if Move Through Cover or Hammer of Wrath is more appropriate, but I agree that it should be one or the other.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I Updated the First Post :

 

So i affined/extended the basic idea i had in mind :

 

- First, I imagined what could be a Blood Angels Low Of War Units/Squad. Futhermore, something that is fluffy "possible", not a game breaking units (but still a potent one), and finally, something that can be represented in a plastic kit.

 

- Second, with your point of view, i worked on something different from the DCTS, but that still could be possible. Now it is a plastic kit that can offer two choice of LOW, either DCTS or DRACULS SQUAD....

 

- Third, here come the Bla Bla Bla changes and presentation :

 

 - DCTS change : Power fist became Chain fist (it better fit my ideas of DC terminators...), removed the HoW/MTC since i though it cold be too much, but maybe i will put back the HoW special rule on it....i don't know^^. And finally, like for Draculs, the DCTS have access to Frag Cannon.

 

- Draculs introduction : First, those guys are mean to work better with a TDA Sanguinary Priest....or even a normal one...

The Draculs benefits from special organic modification due to the Red Thirst trial, so they are thougt (T5, change from the classic FNP). For the WS 5, since they are kept apart from the rest of the chapter, i imagine that they go through training in order to protect the Sanguinary Priests. The Draculexsang have the Rampage Special rule to represent his Thirst that rise as he and his brother are outnumbered (futhermore, it isn't such an Op rule, more of a situational one....).

 

And finally, when imagining those units, i designed them to become far more powerfull when used in concert with Chaplains for the DCTS and Sanguinary Priest for the Draculs.

 

I tried my best to give to one something different from the other while still imaginating  how it could look as a plastic kit.

 

5 Terminators body

+ 5 Right Sided Chainfist

+ 5 Left Sided Storm Bolter

+ 5 Left Sided Chainfist

+ 4 Special Weapons (on the Left Side)

+ 5 Right Sided Power Sword

+ 1 Right Sided Relic Blade

+ 5 Left Sided Storm Shield

+ 5 Crux Terminatus Shoulders

+ 5 DTCS Shoulders

+ 5 Draculs Shoulders

....etc

 

So, in the end, it as possible as the Deathwing Terminator Squad (Yeah my imagination also do the product analysis^^).

 

With suchs units, BA can have a LOW units that can match Gargantuan Creatures. (And brutals LOW^^)

 

Edit : Draculs cannot have Missile Launcher because they can have Storm Shield....and i hardly imagine that the two can come together. While it free the hand of DCTS...but, the Draculs got Plasma Cannon in compensation.

 

And i Thanks Everyone for their constructives point of view. =)

[Xenith]

Off topic initially, back on soon, Antodeniel, I promise!

 

 

 "well thought out, reasonable argument"

 

I agree totally! I feel that your examples are a little off in comparing DC-TDA to a close combat Tau unit: TheTau close combat unit is making a unit with an entirely new function within the Tau army. The TDA DC is taking an existing unit, and putting it in slightly better armour - which is what the Tau are all about - the same 3 fingered blue bovine in varying sizes of shooting-centric battle suit. 

 

The fluff is entirely mutable: 6 months ago, the Tau never developed super large suits to fight knights, as their flyers did all the knight killing. Fast forward, and the Tau developed the Stormsurge....to fight knights.

 

What we saw in the Chaos forum is the gradual acceptance the fact, that even though something may not have been exclusively written about in the fluff, whether codex or Black Library...it had probably still happened somewhere. There is more than one excellent post from AD-B on this very matter, where he breaks down pre-conceived notions of how chaos warbands function. 

 

</On topic>

 

I'd always imagined that the marines that had trule fallen to the red thirst were little more than animals, and actually became bestial. The vargheist models from WFB come to mind, kind of like chaos spawn or lone wolves. These guys are truly insane (Black ragers are relatively lucid, just excited - it happens fast, while the red thirst takes time to develop), and I feel the chappies might have a hard time getting them into TDA...especially as theyre trying to drink the chaplains blood while they do it. 

 

Good on the removal of extra rules. Maybe HoW would work like flesh tearers - if they manage a charge of over 10", they get HoW?

 

Maybe the dracul generate a random FT warlord trait at the start of each game, and every model in the unit gets it!

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

</On topic>

 

I'd always imagined that the marines that had trule fallen to the red thirst were little more than animals, and actually became bestial. The vargheist models from WFB come to mind, kind of like chaos spawn or lone wolves. These guys are truly insane (Black ragers are relatively lucid, just excited - it happens fast, while the red thirst takes time to develop), and I feel the chappies might have a hard time getting them into TDA...especially as theyre trying to drink the chaplains blood while they do it. 

 

Good on the removal of extra rules. Maybe HoW would work like flesh tearers - if they manage a charge of over 10", they get HoW?

 

Maybe the dracul generate a random FT warlord trait at the start of each game, and every model in the unit gets it!

 

First : The Draculs are mean to be to the Sanguinary Priest what the Death Company is to the Chaplains^^.

 

Here is my thought about the Draculs :

"What happen when the Thirsty Blood Angels are imprisoned within the Amareo Tower ? What does the Sanguinary Priesthood do to those afflicted brother ?"

 

Personally, i imagined that the Thirst is more a physical (gene-seed) problems rather than a psychical like the Rage. So knowing this, i imagine that on perhaps 100 brothers who are imprisoned in Amareo tower, perhaps 2-4 can manage to escape/deal with the Thirst. And while the mastery of the Rage unlock the full potential of the Blood Angels Gene-seed (Mephiston...), the "control" of the Thirst could grant some capacities to those who faced it. (More physical change, with link to the Blood consumption...etc).

The Draculs are fallen, vampiric aspect of the Blood Angels. And if the Rage do not take them, they can live a long life. (Most of the time within their Stasic Sarcophages....sleeping, awaiting the day the chapter would awake them)

 

Nota Bene : Controlling the Thirst doesn't mean the Draculs mastered the Rage, they can still fall to it, even if it is quite "unique".

 

(Futhermore, the Thirst is like a trial from my point of view, those who resist it, like the Draculs, are more of cold vampire, thirsty but able to control it, while those who fail to deal with the Thirst, either die, or come only one step from damnation in the hands of chaos....so executed before it could happen....)

 

Second : No HoW for the Draculs^^, it is for the DCTS. And i think that a Warlord trait for the Whole unit would be too much. (Think of them with their Storm shield and a Sanguinary Priest in TDA....with their T5 - W2 - 2+/3++/5fnp, such unit would border the OP line...that i countered by only letting them took power sword in such configuration...so no global warlord trait for this sole reason^^.)

[Father Mapple]

After reading half of the posts, and seeing the in depth discussion... I jumped to the end and had to post this: I'm totally doing a unit of assault terminators in death company colors out of the 40+ terminators I'm working on. That would look so good in black with big red saltires, and white/bone details with green accents on jewels. Hot, flaming blood and Sanguinus, I got to paint that now.

[Arkangilos]

 So knowing this, i imagine that on perhaps 100 brothers who are imprisoned in Amareo tower, perhaps 2-4 can manage to escape/deal with the Thirst. And while the mastery of the Rage unlock the full potential of the Blood Angels Gene-seed (Mephiston...), the "control" of the Thirst could grant some capacities to those who faced it. (More physical change, with link to the Blood consumption...etc).

 

So they don't represent this anymore, but back in 3rd Ed Mephiston could still succumb to the thirst on occasion. After winning at close combat, he had to roll to see if he stayed behind to drink the blood, or if he did a sweeping advance.

 

The Red Thirst is a genetic flaw, but it affects their minds. They literally do go insane with Blood Lust, and those overcome with it have no control or care. Only ONE (depending on the source, the current Codex actually says Mephiston fell to the Black Rage rather than the Thirst) has ever overcome it once they had COMPLETELY fallen. 

 

Besides completely falling, everyone has a level of control over it. So there is nothing unique about being able to "control" the thirst. All Blood Angels can control it, most of the time. 

 

Also (again, depending on the source), those who fall to the Red Thirst eventually transform. It happens in Blood Quest,

where Brother Cloten fights his future self.

.

 

Honestly, I'd leave it at just Death Company, and have the Dracul squad be a really renown Terminator Squad, so their rules are a result of their skill rather than their flaw.

[CaptainHelion]

I may have missed something, but wouldn't teleporters slove the whole reclaiming tech thing.

 

I don't understand why you can teleport men into battle from an orbitting ship, but not teleport the suits back to an orbiting ship when the marines vital signs read dead.

 

And that's not just specific to this, surely it should apply to harvesting geneseed from every fallen marine ever.

 

Big hole in the fluff, or is it me missing something?

 

The way I've always understood 40k teleportation to work is that it essentially 'shoots' the unit from the teleportation device to where they're aiming for. So, you can only teleport what's inside/attached to a teleportation device, and the further you're teleporting, the more energy it takes. Which is why Grey Knights can teleport squads around the battlefield, but you can only teleport deep strike from orbit once. You can't reach out, and grab something like in Star Trek.

[Teetengee]

Off topic initially, back on soon, Antodeniel, I promise!

 

 

 "well thought out, reasonable argument"

 

"well thought out, reasonable response"

So one more clarification, I actually think there isn't a problem with the fluff of terminator clad death company. I think it is pretty awesome. But I am not a Bangels player, so I just figured I would offer my general homebrew advice in the sorts of situations where people are worried about that sort of thing.

 

I am still not entirely clear on why they have 2 wounds though. I do think that Hammer of Wrath fits Death Company Terminators perfectly though.

 

Also, if you were to do Sanguinary Terminators: Glaives encarmine?

[Dempsey]

Well... I would like to see terminator Sanguinary Guard. I imagine them with glaive encarmine and storm shield having USR: hammer of wrath, furious charge, rage and +1I if part of Baal Strike Force - they would look so knightly :-)

[Frater Antodeniel]

I am still not entirely clear on why they have 2 wounds though. I do think that Hammer of Wrath fits Death Company Terminators perfectly though.

 

Also, if you were to do Sanguinary Terminators: Glaives encarmine?

 

 

First : The idea behind the 2 wounds for the DTCS and Draculs, is the fact that their are long living veteran, in their way....

(More precisely, the DTCS are supposed be formed of veterans of the 1st company who, because of cataclysmic event fall to the Black Rage. I also suppose, that the more longer a Blood Angels live, the stronger the Rage is, since, once again, i suppose that, like the Tycho exemple show it, the Battle Brother retain is Combat Skills.)

 

And for a Gaming point of view, due to the unit purpose, i hardly imagining it having only 1 Wound. (Remember that their Chainfist are still Unwieldy...).

 

Second : Response in the Second Quote answer.

 

 

Well... I would like to see terminator Sanguinary Guard. I imagine them with glaive encarmine and storm shield having USR: hammer of wrath, furious charge, rage and +1I if part of Baal Strike Force - they would look so knightly :-)

 

About the Draculs => Terminator Sanguinary Guard idea. I like this possibility. And indeed, it is a good one.

But No Rage special rule, it is exclusive to the DCTS^^. (Futhermore, the Glaive encarmine give master-crafted....)

 

I will do a datasheet about Sanguinary Guard Terminators, since it the idea deserve it, and that it seems to be adequate.

 

BUT, only thing can fluffy block the Idea of the a SGT squad. And it is the fact that Sanguinary Guard haven't the right to choose their wargear, but must only use those of their order.

 

BUT, the Codex isn't really explicit :

"It is from this famous forebear that the Sanguinary Guard descend, and from him that they draw their traditional garb and weapons. Wielding power glaives and angelus boltguns, and resplendent in winged golden armour, the Sanguinary Guard are unstoppable warriors whose individual deeds are recorded as Chapter legend."

 

The codex doesn't say if the winged golden armour are only composed of artificer armor or can count some terminator armour.

 

So while i like the idea to change the Draculs to some Sanguinary Guard Terminators (or even to create a third way), (i personnally would dislike golden terminators armour^^), but since their is a Fluff possibility, then why not^^.

 

So, we have the Mad (DCTS), the Thirsty (Draculs) and the Noble (SGTS). I think that those units reflect quite well the personnality of the Blood Angels chapter and successors. =)

[Helias_Tancred]

I really don't think it's very fluffy. In-universe, Tactical Dreadnaught Armour is rare and extremely valuable, evenf or a chapter like the Blood Angels who have managed to retain more of them than most other chapters. As such it would not be given to deranged mad-men seeing images of their dead primarch and fighting visions of imaginary traitors.

 

I cannot see any justification for this unit existing.

 

What I would like to see though is a model for a Sanguinary Priest in TDA. +1 WS and FNP might go at least a little ways towards making terminators worth their points.

 

Good work on coming up with different concepts but I agree, this was my exact thought too. , tactical dreadnought armor is a precious commodity and I couldn't see the Blood Angels using theirs this way.

[Frater Antodeniel]

All Hail the Sanguinary Guard Terminator Squad !

 

(release on Page 1^^)

 

With this one, we have the Three aspect of the Blood Angels :

 

The Black Rage : DCTS

The Red Thirst : Draculs

The Nobility : SGTS

 

With this, we can have a possible 3 squad box like the DA Deathwing one.

 

----------------------------------------

 

So how do you like this Sanguinary Guard Terminator Squad ?

 

(It can be considered as the most powerfull of the three, but it need costy upgrades to be in God-mod, and even with this, the Herald will always remain 5++....i question myself if i let them keep the storm shield upgrade or not.....)

[Servant of Dante]

Edit: My bad. I should learn to read

 

The sang guard termis are cool, I just don't like the idea, not to say it's a bad idea, I just don't like it

 

From a rules standpoint, I like it. This is REALLY cool. Not sure the rending option makes since. Kinda makes the axe a little worthless. Maybee twin linked angelus bolters because the single one would look comical small on their wrists