Blood Angels DCTS and SGTS...would it shock you ? (30/11)

[Arkangilos]

Edit: My bad. I should learn to read

 

The sang guard termis are cool, I just don't like the idea, not to say it's a bad idea, I just don't like it

 

From a rules standpoint, I like it. This is REALLY cool. Not sure the rending option makes since. Kinda makes the axe a little worthless. Maybee twin linked angelus bolters because the single one would look comical small on their wrists

Why don't you like it from a fluff standpoint?

 

Their jump packs would get in the way during boarding actions or deep fortress storming (both of which Sanguinius would have done). It would make more sense to have your elite guard armed with the best possible armor when doing such things, and since wings would be useless, no reason to give them jump packs.

 

@ Frater

 

I'm still not behind the Dracul squad having control over the red thirst like that. Take this for example, 

 

"Vanguard Veteran Squads are common amongst the 1st company of Blood Angels. Their abilities honed by countless battles, their Red Thirst now more a familiar ally than an inner daemon." ~Codex: BA, 7th Ed, P 76 Vanguard Veteran Squad.

 

Notice how it says that? That means they have a measure of control, they know when and how to use it to it's best affect. 

 

Honestly, if you are going to do a Red Thirst Terminator Squad, then they need to have completely fallen. I would give them rules that are like Beserkers where they might attack your own people if you get to close. And I would say they implanted kill switches inside of each one, so when the battle was over they could stop them.

 

Also, it isn't the Sanguinary Priests' job to lead special units like that. They should not be charging forth into combat. Their job is to collect geneseed, inspire, and do other support things. You know, be a healer, do Apothecary things, not charge headlong into combat like the Death Company and Red Thirst people.

 

Chaplains are supposed to lead the DC into combat. That is why they are there.

[Atia]

Just my two (or more) cents:

 

- First, i actually like the idea of Death Company Terminators for Space Hulk operations, but only for that - same for Sang Guard. It makes sense that Sanguinius had Terminators for boarding stuff, especially @ the Vengeful Spirit. Out of these operations? Not that much imo

- Draculs? Draculs? Ok, not a fan of the name. What is there purpose? Don't make sense at all.

- There is no controll over the thurst (or atleast NOT once you were in the tower ...), only if your name is Mephiston (and than, you can kill a bloodthirster with your bare hands)

- Why should BA's use plasma cannons on their terminators? The only Legion/Chapter who had access to that stuff where the Dark Angels afaik ... (since even in 30k, plasma weapons were strange and rare)

- "the entire squad swords and axes amy have the rending special rule" - that's not how you write rules, or how rules are written these days (if ever)

[Servant of Dante]

Maybee there is fluff to support the terminator sang guard I just don't like the idea. It doesn't fit my image of the sanguinary guard. Besides, the blood Angels have exactly 30 sanguinary guardsmen and I doubt any of them would be equally proficient with jump packs and TDA

 

Feel free to ignore me

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

I'm still not behind the Dracul squad having control over the red thirst like that. Take this for example, 

 

"Vanguard Veteran Squads are common amongst the 1st company of Blood Angels. Their abilities honed by countless battles, their Red Thirst now more a familiar ally than an inner daemon." ~Codex: BA, 7th Ed, P 76 Vanguard Veteran Squad.

 

Notice how it says that? That means they have a measure of control, they know when and how to use it to it's best affect. 

 

Honestly, if you are going to do a Red Thirst Terminator Squad, then they need to have completely fallen. I would give them rules that are like Beserkers where they might attack your own people if you get to close. And I would say they implanted kill switches inside of each one, so when the battle was over they could stop them.

 

Also, it isn't the Sanguinary Priests' job to lead special units like that. They should not be charging forth into combat. Their job is to collect geneseed, inspire, and do other support things. You know, be a healer, do Apothecary things, not charge headlong into combat like the Death Company and Red Thirst people.

 

Chaplains are supposed to lead the DC into combat. That is why they are there.

 

 

First : Draculs, like i imagined them, are not really Veteran at first. The Draculs are more likely the "survivors" battle brother (young or old) who have been "tested" within the Amareo tower. "then they need to have completely fallen", to this point i say yes. The Draculs have indeed fall to the Thirst, but keep their sanity, most of the time.

 

Furthermore, were the Death Company are trap between Reality and HH era, the Draculs are more like addicted vampire, whose Thirst is kept in check thanks to blood providing systems and pure will.....In term of sanity, they are between the Fully insane DC and the more normal Sanguinary Guard. (Like the Lamenters, in some way, the Dracul are kind of depressed vampire, knowing that they are more akin to monster after some physical transformation that occurs....this explaining why their faces are always covered...). Rules speaking, once again, i imagine, that the Thirst enhanced their organism regeneration making them toughter than normal astartes.

 

About the Sanguinary Priest, in fact, your misunderstood one think. The Draculs are kind of Dedicated Body Guard to the Sanguinary Priest...in this way, he also lead them....but they remain meatshield for the Sanguinary Priest in TDA....

 

 

 

Just my two (or more) cents:

 

- First, i actually like the idea of Death Company Terminators for Space Hulk operations, but only for that - same for Sang Guard. It makes sense that Sanguinius had Terminators for boarding stuff, especially @ the Vengeful Spirit. Out of these operations? Not that much imo

- Draculs? Draculs? Ok, not a fan of the name. What is there purpose? Don't make sense at all.

- There is no controll over the thurst (or atleast NOT once you were in the tower ...), only if your name is Mephiston (and than, you can kill a bloodthirster with your bare hands)

- Why should BA's use plasma cannons on their terminators? The only Legion/Chapter who had access to that stuff where the Dark Angels afaik ... (since even in 30k, plasma weapons were strange and rare)

- "the entire squad swords and axes amy have the rending special rule" - that's not how you write rules, or how rules are written these days (if ever)

 

- Draculs : I know that the name of the Units isn't really Epic^^, but it work, not the best, not the worst.

 

- Mephiston : I begin BA with the 5th ed, slowly^^, and the 7th confirmed what the 5th said, that Mephiston Fall to the Rage.

Plus, "Vanguard Veteran Squads are common amongst the 1st company of Blood Angels. Their abilities honed by countless battles, their Red Thirst now more a familiar ally than an inner daemon." ~Codex: BA, 7th Ed, P 76 Vanguard Veteran Squad.

 

- Plasma Cannon : I should rather say; Why Blood Angels Terminators shouldn't use Plasma Cannon ? Plasma Cannon isn't a rare thing, but a difficult one to master. (The Quality make all the difference, and BA have lot of artificers compared to the DA.....)

 

- For the Rending Rule option on the SGTS, it is to represent the skills of those few SG who can wield TDA. (Their are kind of angelic executor, the rending make sense. And with the cost, it isn't a game breaking buff, but a powerfull one nonetheless.)

 

 

Maybee there is fluff to support the terminator sang guard I just don't like the idea. It doesn't fit my image of the sanguinary guard. Besides, the blood Angels have exactly 30 sanguinary guardsmen and I doubt any of them would be equally proficient with jump packs and TDA

 

Feel free to ignore me

 

I will not ignore you^^. Personnaly, i prefer the DCTS or the Draculs, but after all, SG in TDA can also make sense within the fluff.

[Arkangilos]

- Plasma Cannon : I should rather say; Why Blood Angels Terminators shouldn't use Plasma Cannon ? Plasma Cannon isn't a rare thing, but a difficult one to master. (The Quality make all the difference, and BA have lot of artificers compared to the DA.....)

 

... All Plasma weaponry are rare things... They aren't on the table top, but in the fluff they are. The Dark Angels are KNOWN for their use of plasma weaponry like that, we aren't. That's like giving other chapters Inferno and Flame Pistols. It's not their thing, it's ours. Plasma cannons aren't our thing, it's theirs. 

 

- Mephiston : I begin BA with the 5th ed, slowly^^, and the 7th confirmed what the 5th said, that Mephiston Fall to the Rage.

Plus, "Vanguard Veteran Squads are common amongst the 1st company of Blood Angels. Their abilities honed by countless battles, their Red Thirst now more a familiar ally than an inner daemon." ~Codex: BA, 7th Ed, P 76 Vanguard Veteran Squad.

 

... You literally just copied what I said about the codex to disprove why Draculs were a bad idea to prove why it's ok to take away from Mephiston? 

 

Furthermore, were the Death Company are trap between Reality and HH era, the Draculs are more like addicted vampire, whose Thirst is kept in check thanks to blood providing systems and pure will.....In term of sanity, they are between the Fully insane DC and the more normal Sanguinary Guard. (Like the Lamenters, in some way, the Dracul are kind of depressed vampire, knowing that they are more akin to monster after some physical transformation that occurs....this explaining why their faces are always covered...). Rules speaking, once again, i imagine, that the Thirst enhanced their organism regeneration making them toughter than normal astartes.

 

What? No, the Tower of Amero isn't a place where people go to get tested... It's a place where Those who have been completely lost to the thirst have been locked up. They are no longer sane, and NOBODY knows what happens in there. 

 

I feel like you are grasping for straws here and reading stuff that is out of character for our chapter.

 

About the Sanguinary Priest, in fact, your misunderstood one think. The Draculs are kind of Dedicated Body Guard to the Sanguinary Priest...in this way, he also lead them....but they remain meatshield for the Sanguinary Priest in TDA....

 

A person who has succumbed to the Red Thirst will, according to fluff, make their way to the closest source of blood. If they have barely succumbed, it will be towards the enemy. If they have completely succumbed, it will be to anyone nearby. That is how the fluff describes it. If they are acting as a bodyguard to someone who is extracting gene-seed, he would quickly be without them, or they would start drinking from his patient. 

 

The LAST person you want as a body guard is someone who has succumbed to ANY flaw, especially when YOUR job is to stay back and support.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I just cannot get behind a dracul squad for the Blood Angels.

[Charlo]

Maybe we calm down the Black Rage in the thread, and keep it to the DC terminators.

 

Sanguinary terminators are cool, unsure how to make them anything other than exchanging a jump pack for a 5++ and bulky/ no sweeping advance/ heavy weapon access.

 

Maybe you make them have Angelus Storm Bolters, with an extra shot and range. Then have a Melta gun option as opposed to am inferno pistol. Maybe make up a cool heavy weapon or use a portable frag cannon with one shot but any unit firing it counts as being armed with frag grenades in the ensuing assault phase.

 

Draculs aren't floating my boat though, just feel a little fan fictiony for my taste.

[Servant of Dante]

I'm going to go with meh on the Draculs. From what I understand you could not field one who has completely fallen to the red thirst and been consigned to the tower of Amareo. *looks at his own listed location in his profile*

 

Well... This is awkward. I guess I'll go back to my cell and try to bite the novitiate that brings me my next meal...

[Arkangilos]

Maybe we calm down the Black Rage in the thread, and keep it to the DC terminators.

 

Sanguinary terminators are cool, unsure how to make them anything other than exchanging a jump pack for a 5++ and bulky/ no sweeping advance/ heavy weapon access.

 

Maybe you make them have Angelus Storm Bolters, with an extra shot and range. Then have a Melta gun option as opposed to am inferno pistol. Maybe make up a cool heavy weapon or use a portable frag cannon with one shot but any unit firing it counts as being armed with frag grenades in the ensuing assault phase.

 

Draculs aren't floating my boat though, just feel a little fan fictiony for my taste.

I probably shouldn't have cap locked. There was no RAGE from me. I'll have to go back and bold it instead.

 

 

I agree with your ideas on the Sanguinary Termies.

 

That, and I'd give them all the option for Glaive Encarmines

[Charlo]

Do you mean Glaive Encarmine? Because that's what I totally meant they'd have but didn't say.

 

Cool modelling opportunities. You could pretty much use the SW terminator rules to represent them. Or just go GK paladins for super elite.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I don't really have time now to answers everyone, but, i quote this specifically....

 

 

- Plasma Cannon : I should rather say; Why Blood Angels Terminators shouldn't use Plasma Cannon ? Plasma Cannon isn't a rare thing, but a difficult one to master. (The Quality make all the difference, and BA have lot of artificers compared to the DA.....)

 

... All Plasma weaponry are rare things... They aren't on the table top, but in the fluff they are. The Dark Angels are KNOWN for their use of plasma weaponry like that, we aren't. That's like giving other chapters Inferno and Flame Pistols. It's not their thing, it's ours. Plasma cannons aren't our thing, it's theirs.

 

 

Personally i would remember to EVERYONE about a fact, a true : The Blood Angels are amongst the "Artificers" chapters/legion. (Like the Salamanders and Iron Hands.)

 

Even if not all Blood Angels are Artificers, most are or become. We are able to craft weapons, armour and goods of the Highiest quality.

 

The armoury of every Blood Angels chapters outmatch those of most other chapter in quantity as well as quality.

 

I want to remember to you all brothers that our chapters isn't only made of blunt warriors, but also, mostly, of artist of war.

 

So brothers, when you say that Terminators armour, plasma weaponry....etc, are rare things, i say yes BUT to us because of the talents of our Serf-Artificers, Brothers Artificers, and Techmarines, the rare is less rare. Don't understimate yourself, don't underestimate the chapter brothers qualities and talents.

[Charlo]

I would disagree with your statement on them out matching people in both quality and quantity.

 

All the first founding chapters will have a LOT of stuff, they might not use it all the time but they will have it in the vaults on Terra, Mcragge, The Rock, Nocturne etc.

 

Take the Dark Angels, they are known to have a HELL of a lot of archeotech in the deep vaults or the rock due to thier origins as the first. It might not be as gold and flashy as our stuff but they certainly have it, if not more, they just don't deploy it due to it being relics etc.

 

We definately do not have any plasma cannons fit for TDA use. If you look at FW's heresy and take that as the example, no terminators currently have plasma cannons, only the now lost blaster tech.

 

I'd be willing to bet the DA will though.

 

I can see your chapter pride shining through which is great but it's becoming bias, which is never good in a discussion like this. BA have thier limits too :)

[Arkangilos]

Do you mean Glaive Encarmine? Because that's what I totally meant they'd have but didn't say.

 

Cool modelling opportunities. You could pretty much use the SW terminator rules to represent them. Or just go GK paladins for super elite.

...

>.>

<.<

 

Yes, that's what I mean... I have know idea where Sanguine Blades came from...

 

Anyhow, I also agree with what you just said above me.

 

Also, Frater, don't take this as me telling you not to do something. Im only trying to offer critiques to grow it into something better. As a side note, if you had a successor chapter, I would gladly let you use those rules and fluff against me. My problem is when it's the Blood Angels themselves.

 

So for Blood Angels, I would say it should be adjusted a little more along with what we had said.

[Paikis]

We definately do not have any plasma cannons fit for TDA use.

 

I'm still 100% against DC terminators, it just isn't fluffy at all, but I could see an argument for multimeltas on our terminators. Dark Angels are known for Plasma, Salamanders for Flamers, Space Wolves for Frost Weapons, but we Blood Angels are known for our Melta, hence the Inferno-pistol.

 

I'd be pretty happy with a tactical terminator option (call them whatever you like) that included Glaves Encarmine instead of power fists and Meltaguns instead of Stormbolters. They'd probably be overpowered as all get out though.

[Charlo]

No different to some SW terms with a combi Melta really so not op at all!

[LutherMax]

The Librarian in Terminator Armour has a combi-melta, can normal Termies not take them then?! (Don't have my Dex to hand...)

[Paikis]

 

No different to some SW terms with a combi Melta really so not op at all!

 

The Librarian in Terminator Armour has a combi-melta, can normal Termies not take them then?! (Don't have my Dex to hand...)

 

No, standard Terminators all get Stormbolters and the only option is that for every 5 Terminators in the squad you can upgrade one of them to an Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer (or add a Cyclone Missile Launcher, keeping the Stormbolter)

 

A squad of 5x terminators with 4x master-crafted power weapons, a powerfist, a multi-melta and 4 meltaguns sounds pretty absurd.

 

Most things that we can give TDA to costs 30 points. If we start with a squad of 5x Sanguard and swap jump packs and powerfists for TDA it's basically free, infact we should be gaining points because we're not taking the fists either. Let's say 5 points per model to swap artificer armour and jump packs for TDA, keeping the Glaives. Angelus Boltguns are slightly better than standard stormbolters, so let's just say they're worth 5 points and take that off the cost of a meltagun which means 5ppm for meltaguns all-round and another 5points to upgrade one of them to a multimelta.

 

So we have a unit that costs 220pts for the following setup:

 

5x Sanguinary Terminators, 4x Glaives Encarmine, 1x Power Fist, 4x Meltaguns, 1x Multimelta

4/4/4/4/1/4/2/10/2+/5++

 

That seems very cheap. I really think that much melta should cost a bit more. As for fluff, these could be how the Sanguinary Guard undertake missions where a jump pack would be either a hinderance, or no help, i.e boarding actions, underground excursions etc. I'm not sure on this either though, golden terminators just seem tacky to me. Maybe we could just say these are veteran terminators? I really can't think of a fluffy way to get these into our 'dex.

[Charlo]

Maybe we go one further and make them inferno pistols instead? Really play up to our theme, or a choice of that or a hand flamer? Makes sense if you are clearing space hulk Corridors!

Thier storm bolters would be AP4 with the angelus ammo too

But really, you can essentially do this with Wolves and they cost about 38pts a model for a TDA with power and combi. Only minor issue is counter attack instead of furious charge, but that basically just makes them better at deep striking. Plus you then get the option of storm shields etc.

Space wolf TDA is incredibly flexible and almost fairly priced. You can use Champs of Fenris to make them WS5 too, and then you add a wolfy priest to make them FNP and Zealot. Winning count as!

Honestly this whole thing is making me want to paint my TDA gold... Need some retributor spray...

[Xhris the Unpronounceable]

Since I am unencumbered by the need to field every model I paint in a sanctioned battle, I'm gonna state that I think a DCTS would look totally bad-ass, and as such that's sufficient for me to paint up a squad (just as soon as I finish the 'regular ones' that are WiP)

[Frater Antodeniel]

First, Everyone, thanks again for your participation on this "idea concept", and don't worry, i will hold no grudge to anyone, we can have disagreements, and it is what make the ideas progresses. =)

 

Furthermore, to make this topic progress further by still keeping is purpose (what could be a LOW units for BA, in the form of Terminators), i will simply remind to everyone some piece of fluff and global ideas that i consider unremovable :

 

 - Encarmine Blades and Angelus Bolter are exclusive to Sanguinary Guard, those are their weapons ranks. (100% fluff)

 

 - We still don't know officially, what happens to the Blood Angels who have completely fall to the Red Thirst and are Imprisoned within the Amareo Tower (100% fluff)

 

 - We don't clearly know if Death Company brothers retain their abilities after falling to the Rage. All we know is that the only exemples we can have is "Fallen Tycho" (and "Lemartes" that i don't take in account since he as fall to the rage but remains "conscious") whose rules tend to prove that a Blood Angels can retain most if all its warrior talents, as well as is previous wargears. (100% fluff and Rules for the Tycho exemple.)

 

 - And, about all the wargears questions/restrictions :

"The Blood Angels are amongst the finest craftsmen and artisans the Imperium has ever known. Even the most commonplace items of wargear produced by their forges are exquisite pieces, veritable works of art. They are no less lethal for this, however – a lesson that many foes have learned to their cost." Codex BA 7th ed

(The 5th BA ed also states that the BA Techmarines are amonst the finiest of the imperium too.....)

(100% Fluff^^)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Finally, to describe to you my vision of the Blood Angels and their Successors, i divide those in Three great parts :

 

- The Nobles Angels(Blood Angels, Angels Encarmine, Blood Drinkers....etc) who tend to express the best of the Blood Angels nobility as Angels in their own rights. (They still suffers from the flaws, but in lesser degrees....less apparents....)

 

- The Berserkers, chapters who can be considered as Angels of death and who greatly suffer from the Flaws, and who are known for their bloodlust (Flesh Tearers, Knights of Blood, Flesh Eaters....etc).

 

- The Vampires/Fallen Angels, chapters who retain the nobility of their kind, but are shadowed in darkness. Those chapters, like the "berserkers" suffer greatly from the flaws. The imperium see them whit utmost suspicions. (Angels Vermillon, Angels Sanguine...etc).

 

This vision explaining why i designed a Three way units (Sanguinary Guard Terminators for nobles, Death Company Terminators for berserkers, and Draculs for Vampires.)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Here are the informations that seemed important to clarifying.

 

Furthermore, if i have time, today, or tomorrow, i will think how improve those Three units, taking your thoughts into account. =)

[Servant of Dante]

But if they have fallen to the red thirst completely and have been locked in a tower, you aren't going to get them onto a battlefield. They wouldn't get anything done.

 

We may not know what happens after they enter the tower, but we know what they are like when they go in and that there is no cure to the red thirst. I don't like the Draculs at all

[Arkangilos]

I personally wouldn't say I don't like them at all. Honestly, what I would do if I were going to make them for Blood Angels (and not successors), is add into the fluff, "When the impending invasions heading for Baal, the Blood Angels, in their most desperate of moments, have let loose those trapped in the Tower of Amero." I would then go to add that these rules have the same rule as Khârn the Betrayer, so they have a chance of attacking your own people. That way you try to fire them into the enemy and let them do as much damage as possible.

[Omega-soul]

"Finally, to describe to you my vision of the Blood Angels and their Successors, i divide those in Three great parts "

 

I am afraid that it's only yours vision.

There is no "nobility" as variable - all BA are a noble in a warrioir way.

The  only alteration is the way handleing their Thirst.

 

About craftsmanship - in  warhammer imperium you can't simply invent thing, you just have the access to certain wargears/techs and only upgrade them.

So basicly artificing things is making thing more reliable (in a way of re-rols) 

so artificer armour - it could be re-rolable saves  (or maybe one in a phase)

Ranged weaponary - is a frags/meltas/flamers

 

Actully i have thought that - tactically BA lack heavy weaponaries. So in a case  when we  don't have a centurions etc. we could have a simply - terminator-devastator squad with options just for close-mid ranged weapons - assault cannons/multimeltas/frag-flamestorm canons

It's quite rational to have those things - the advance support. Usual devastators  are meant for long range support but not for an assault/breaching.

[SnorriSnorrison]

The invasion of Baal is kind of the only situation I can see the peeps from the tower getting unleashed. Basically you know those marines are no good under no circumstances, but sometimes, even blood-thirsting lunatics on steroids can be put to use. No Blood Angels commander would take any incarcerated Marine from the tower of Amareo and get him Terminator armour. No way.

Scout armour, now that's something entirely different. You wouldn't want to protect them anyways, as you'd want them to die as soon as possible(if, and that's a big IF, they're not tearing themselves apart on the way). You could put them on the sidelines, maybe from a landspeeder storm, and wreck whatever they can lay their hands on, then die in the crossfire of the unit next to whatever they just destroyed. But then, that's what DC are for.

Sarcasm ahead!

As I see it, from a fluff point of view, Frater Antodeniel is a very cruel, pitiless commander( ), since instead of putting an end to the suffering of the Marines in the Tower, he likes to keep them alive for his agenda of war-mongery and conflict.

No, for real now. Another reason I believe that DC-anything marines besides normal PA marines is silly is because you don't want them to live. Their survival in the face of great dangers will bring no glory, but merely a long time of incredible pain and torture(now hold yourselves, you Dark Eldar reading this!).

The stuff you quoted, Frater, is indeed 100% according to our background, but it's also taken from context in many times.

- Yes, we don't know what happens to those in the Tower. We know, however, that Marines fallen to the Red Thirst are in no way keeping any of their senses, they're empty carcasses filled with blood-lust and insanity. Except for Chaos, no commander would unleash them on the battlefield, since they can't be controlled even by our Priests. The Blood Angels are no madmen, their skilled warriors, tacticians and strategists. It's kind of a big risk already to send the Death Company into battle, at least by fluff-pov.

- Tycho kept his wargear, yes. Though that seems to be the exception rather than the rule, for Marines that succumbed to the Rage have always, always been depicted in Power Armour. There's nothing that indicates this to be a procedure done for everyone. To be honest, I'd rather have the old rending back(with auto-wounds on to-hit rolls of 6) instead of giving them power-weapons which are, again, worth quite a bit especially you consider that the Blood Angels are Master Artificers and even a bolter is worth more than an entire Hive City.

- The bit about artificers, yeah we kinda got that thing going on. A lot of stuff about that was also written in the 5th edition codex, which was a Ward-Dex. Let's not forget that he liked to blow things out of proportions fluff-wise.

- The Nobles Angels(Blood Angels, Angels Encarmine, Blood Drinkers....etc) who tend to express the best of the Blood Angels nobility as Angels in their own rights. (They still suffers from the flaws, but in lesser degrees....less apparents....)

As explained by Omega-Soul, all Sons of the Angel are noble in a warrior way, some more, some less. So why should only the 'good' ones get the SG terminators?

- The Berserkers, chapters who can be considered as Angels of death and who greatly suffer from the Flaws, and who are known for their bloodlust (Flesh Tearers, Knights of Blood, Flesh Eaters....etc).

As far as I know, all Space Marines can be considered Angels of Death. And even Flesh Tearers have, under Seth in command, regained a lot of their formerly lost honour and status(besides being kind-of renegade). Knights of Blood we know too little about, except that they've gone Khârn a bit too often in the past.

- The Vampires/Fallen Angels, chapters who retain the nobility of their kind, but are shadowed in darkness. Those chapters, like the "berserkers" suffer greatly from the flaws. The imperium see them whit utmost suspicions. (Angels Vermillon, Angels Sanguine...etc).

This vision explaining why i designed a Three way units (Sanguinary Guard Terminators for nobles, Death Company Terminators for berserkers, and Draculs for Vampires.)

No. Just no. Angels Vermillion shun contact with their brothers, yet the reason for that is unkown. Also, they're pretty active and their records seem to be 'nothing short of exemplary', they even aided Mephiston on Hollonan(so it can't be that bad). Nothing would indicate that they're viewed with utmost suspicions.

Angels Sanguine are not vampiric either(where did that word even come from??). Ward introduced a shoddy bit of fluff that they're not taking off their helmets because suspicions, suspicions. Two reasons to dismiss this, one: it's Ward-Fluff, and two: it's bad. It seems to have been introduced only to distinguish the AS from the other successors, and poorly at that. Same thing with the bro-fisting with 'Crons....or Grey Knights bathing in blood. Ward messed things up big-time.

I liked Owlandmoonguy's take on the fluff of the AS, but I don't know if he's still on the forums.

It appears that you're trying to distinguish the Blood Angels even further from other chapters, no matter the cost. We're already pretty unique, I can't see any reasons to introduce more things without proper fluff justification just for the sake of it. No offense though.

Snorri

[Frater Antodeniel]

It appears that you're trying to distinguish the Blood Angels even further from other chapters, no matter the cost. We're already pretty unique, I can't see any reasons to introduce more things without proper fluff justification just for the sake of it. No offense though.

Personally, i disagree cleary with you on this particular point . We aren't so "Unique". Not that i want our chapter to became "Wolf 2.0", but just to be really different from Codex SM. Furthermore, we Blood Angels, from my point of view, lack from three things :

Flyers : Blood Angels are supposed to be sky masters, but we only got Stormraven....(But, at least, we have FW good flyers.)

Skimmers : THE BIG PROBLEM. Blood Angels are supposed to be a chapter on the move, yet no Land Speeder Storm for scouts....and only the Classical Land Speeder variant....(Personally, i am for at least two Blood Angels Land Speeder variants of the "Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance", that would go in fast attack/support slot.)

LOW : While it doesn't seem to be the big point, i would gladly move Dante and Seth to HQ and have a Blood Angels unique LOW unit squad. (Most of others faction have Great LOW units, and our fluff offers such a possibility, at least with the DCTS....)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, to return on the subject.....i have thought about the Possibility to move Sanguinary Guard Terminators from LOW to Elite (unique)....why...because i think, in the end, should a Blood Angels LOW units squad exist, i would be more like DCTS than SGTS. (Also because normal Sanguinary Guard are Elite, and that i came to compare a 1Wound SGTS with the Deathwings Knights/Terminators....)

[Charlo]

It appears that you're trying to distinguish the Blood Angels even further from other chapters, no matter the cost. We're already pretty unique, I can't see any reasons to introduce more things without proper fluff justification just for the sake of it. No offense though.

Personally, i disagree cleary with you on this particular point . We aren't so "Unique". Not that i want our chapter to became "Wolf 2.0", but just to be really different from Codex SM. Furthermore, we Blood Angels, from my point of view, lack from three things :

Flyers : Blood Angels are supposed to be sky masters, but we only got Stormraven....(But, at least, we have FW good flyers.)

While we obviously can't take one Talon, we can use the stormwing formation to get two with a Raven, the Raven operating absolutely no differently than if it was in our codex, other than not using a HS choice, and getting BS5 while a Talon is alive. Do we need something unique? Maybe... But I think we're okay for now.

That said, a frag weapon that uses blast instead of template on a raven could be fun :P

Skimmers : THE BIG PROBLEM. Blood Angels are supposed to be a chapter on the move, yet no Land Speeder Storm for scouts....and only the Classical Land Speeder variant....(Personally, i am for at least two Blood Angels Land Speeder variants of the "Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance", that would go in fast attack/support slot.)

Not much of a problem either. We can ally in LSS as a fast attack choice technically (I think) so with minimum spending (a cheap HQ and scout squad) we can grab one. It's not really the be all and end all though, plus I think most BA would prefer thier own wings (jump packs) to being a pilot ;)

LOW : While it doesn't seem to be the big point, i would gladly move Dante and Seth to HQ and have a Blood Angels unique LOW unit squad. (Most of others faction have Great LOW units, and our fluff offers such a possibility, at least with the DCTS....)

Seth - yes. He should be a HQ, he's seemingly only a LoW because he has "Chapter Master" in his name, and it would be nice to be able to field him & Dante. 3+ save. Wyh GW!

Dante should be a LoW, he's mega powerful and it's quite beneficial as it lets you have 2 of our other great HQs as well :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, to return on the subject.....i have thought about the Possibility to move Sanguinary Guard Terminators from LOW to Elite (unique)....why...because i think, in the end, should a Blood Angels LOW units squad exist, i would be more like DCTS than SGTS. (Also because normal Sanguinary Guard are Elite, and that i came to compare a 1Wound SGTS with the Deathwings Knights/Terminators....)

​Considering you can get everything bar mastercrafted and ap4 bolters onto a terminator squad that makes it comparable to the SG terms we've been over, this makes sense.

Replies in Red broski.