What is the greatest tragedy in the Horus Heresy to you?

[Loesh]

Couldn't sleep this night and decided to do a write up. Exactly what it says in the title...it's been a long time since the Horus Heresy started and we've seen a lot of the grief and pain that would shape the Imperium for ten thousand years to come. While probably not the biggest event in the grand scheme of the Imperium, possibly not even the most important, there is not a place in Warhammer more packed with mythology, legends, horror, and broken dreams as these tiny little seven years.

 

For me, the greatest tragedy has always belonged to one person: Fulgrim.

 

I think a lot of people give Graham Mcneil too little credit when writing the fall/apotheosis of Fulgrim into what we know today. The general consensus seems to be that it's as simple as 'Fulgrim picked up a Daemon weapon, the weapon corrupted him, then he did a bunch of evil stuff and killed his brother.' Yet if you go through the material produced, there's so much more to it then that.

 

Fulgrim, like all the Primarchs really, is a child. A child who desperately wants to please his parent, a child who wants to be the best of the best, impressing a person who isn't even there anymore. Fulgrim and his Legion had always been lavished with praises and honors but that isn't to say they were incompetent fops who couldn't fight with the best of the Space Wolves and World Eaters, to the contrary they always worked hard to be the exemplars of what a Space Marine should be. When you're the only one allowed to wear the Emperors personal symbol how could you settle for less?

 

Yet, the Primarch had problems long before the Daemon weapon ever came into his life. Fulgrim feared imperfection and the damage that had been wrought on his genetic code by the Selenites, and though he truly and deeply loved his sons he sent them to their deaths on Laer in order to prove a goal he had set for himself and to prove the might of humanity. But his father, and his fathers version was all important, yet these things haunted him...even though he had still accomplished something amazing and possibly done it better then the other Legions might have even if given years of warfare.

 

Fulgrim was in my eyes the best and the brightest short of Horus himself, and maybe with a little attention he could of even gone past that. But these insecurities and no guidance from the Emperor meant that his perfectionism, the things that made him truly great, was his gateway to Chaos.

 

I don't think I need to tell anyone about Ferrus Manus, or how the guilt ate away at him, but to my mind it's always been a lesser tragedy compared to what could of been. What's sad to me about Fulgrim isn't simply his fall, but what he could of been had he not.

[Kastor Krieg]

Magnus. Both the Horus-engineered daemon incommunicado at Prospero and his best-faith attempt to be the psychic Eisenstein.

[Lord Blackwood]

Angron never really having a chance ranks up there pretty high for me. 

The situation between Russ and Magnus 

The beautiful friendship that COULD HAVE BEEN  between Dorn and Pert

[shandwen]

Erabus not getting his face smashed in years before the heresy. He deserved it, people knew something wasn't right, but no one did anything.

[Kriegsmacht]

That it happened.

[Mogsam]

Pertarboro (SP!) - he was handled poorly like many of the Emperors sons! He just wanted to build!

[ZebraM]

Kurze. He's not really evil he's just slowly driven insane by his powers and it takes a toll on both him and his legion. If the Emperor had guided him on his powers then there might of been hope for him. Though I think you could say that for quite a few of the other primarchs that with more involvement from the Emperor they would of fared better

[Kastor Krieg]

Oh, also the whole shebang with the human remnant empire where the <expletives redacted> nicked the blade.

Generally, Douchebus and Kor Doucheron. Ugh.

[Sandlemad]

That Horus turned. The heresy was coming, in one form or another, but the final pages of Horus Rising tease what could have been better than anything else in the books.

 

He would remember that moment, years later, when fate had played its cruel trick and sense had turned upside down. He would remember Horus, Warmaster, in that narrow firelit street, defining the honour and unyielding courage of the Imperium of Man. There should have been frescoes painted, poems written, symphonies composed, all to celebrate that instant when Horus made his most absolute statement of devotion to the Throne. And to his father. There would be none. The hateful future swallowed up such possibilities, swallowed the memories too, until the very fact of that nobility became impossible to believe.

 

Chills.

[Olis]

For me it will always be the events leading to, including and the aftermath of Prospero. Magnus, although he defied the Emperor and was hubristic, did not fall because of his own faults. He fell because of circumstance and because of the machinations of his brother, Horus. It is all too easy to lay blame with Leman Russ - he and his sons were the ones to raze Prospero and neutralise Magnus and his Legion. But they both were used as pawns and, in desperation, Magnus made a difficult choice. Perhaps he made a wrong choice. Without the option to come peacefully, we shall never know what Magnus, Russ and Horus would or could have done if things were different. We can speculate until the cows come home but it won't change the fact that the 15th fell when they didn't deserve to.

[Legatus]

I don't find the Primarchs/Legions that turned due to a "flaw" in their own attitude all that tragic.

 

E.g. Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children: Fanatical perfectionism and vanity, so they turned. 

 

Perturabo and the Iron Warriors: Pessimistic outlook and blaming others for their lack of commendations, so they turned.

 

Angron and the World Eaters: They just loved to cut people up, so they turned.

 

Lorgar and the Word Bearers: Desparate to worship something, so they turned.

 

 

Those all turned because they were not reasonable and well adjusted personalities. Their betrayal is completely on them, and cannot really be blamed on someone else (anyone faces some hardship at some point, being given a tough time about something is no excuse), so they get no sympathy from me. The Primarchs that were subject to outside influences deserve more pity in my opinion.

 

Curze had inescapable visions of a terrible fate, which caused him no small distress. And he was not aware that his Legion was infused with criminal elements and turned from pragmatic enforcers into ruthless sadists. He was dealt a bad card.

 

Magnus could not keep his hands off of forbidden arcane knowledge. That was his "flaw", but he tried to do the right thing with it. Only due to misunderstanding did the Emperor pronounce him to be a traitor and send his Wolves at him, which then really drove Magnus to the other side. Things could have turned out differently, if there had been more understanding on both ends.

[GoogleusMaximus]

The story of Argel Tal and the Word Bearers is one that feels to wrong to me though I can see the flaws in Lorgar that led to it happening.

 

Perhaps most among the Primarchs Lorgar loved his father, literally worshiping him even when this was defying his father. He was perhaps a touch fragile compared to others... his brothers seemed to think so.

The fact that the Emperor didn't handle things differently there turns a legion of good and noble men into the premier worshipers of chaos and led to many of them making the ultimate sacrifice... to make pacts with the Neverborn to help support the dreams of their father. Argel Tal most of all, the noble monster who could have swayed Khran from his path...


Of course there were others, the scouring of Prospero, the Betrayal at Caliban and the guilt that haunts the Angels when so many other Legions had similar issues of astartes loyal to horus among the loyalists, Sigsmund falling from favor with Dorn, and lest we forget the conversation between a simple Astropath and the Emperor... the only portrayal as the Emperor as something approaching human.

[Kilofix]

Poor Konrad, poor Fulgrim, poor Peturabo, poor Angron, poor Argel Tal, poor Torgaddon,...

 

But really, the greatest tragedy is the Emperor's Hubris in trying to hide and control a destiny that he could not.

[b1soul]

Fear to Tread

[Roomsky]

Nothing hits me harder than Magnus accidentally ruining the Emperor's webway project to deliver a warning that wasn't even taken seriously. Everything before and after that was pretty sad too, but that moment for me was the greatest tragedy: that the act with probably the greatest intention caused the greatest disaster.

 

Also Outcast Dead never happened.

[Kilofix]

Nothing hits me harder than Magnus accidentally ruining the Emperor's webway project to deliver a warning that wasn't even taken seriously. Everything before and after that was pretty sad too, but that moment for me was the greatest tragedy: that the act with probably the greatest intention caused the greatest disaster.

 

Also Outcast Dead never happened.

Same can be said for Lorgar though, but nobody empathizes with him.

[Roomsky]

 

Nothing hits me harder than Magnus accidentally ruining the Emperor's webway project to deliver a warning that wasn't even taken seriously. Everything before and after that was pretty sad too, but that moment for me was the greatest tragedy: that the act with probably the greatest intention caused the greatest disaster.

 

Also Outcast Dead never happened.

Same can be said for Lorgar though, but nobody empathizes with him.

 

I love Lorgar, he's my favorite primarch.

 

But he didn't melt the thing meant to keep humanity out of the warp for the next 20,000 years. Accidentally doing that and then being ignored about the worst thing ever to me is sadder.

[Kastor Krieg]

The Interrex knew about "Kaos", they knew about it and warned Horus about it before Douchebus went stupid. It ALL could have been avoided. Between the Imperial numbers  and Interrex preserved technology, Humanity would've had the galaxy in the palm of the hand. They even had early Tyranid scouts conquered and sequestered on a single planet, where they could've been studied and the Eater of All could be defended against 10 thousand years later.

Nope. Two backstabbing morons with no self-esteem had to ruin it all for LITERALLY EVERYONE.

[Loesh]

I don't find the Primarchs/Legions that turned due to a "flaw" in their own attitude all that tragic.

 

E.g. Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children: Fanatical perfectionism and vanity, so they turned. 

 

Perturabo and the Iron Warriors: Pessimistic outlook and blaming others for their lack of commendations, so they turned.

 

Angron and the World Eaters: They just loved to cut people up, so they turned.

 

Lorgar and the Word Bearers: Desparate to worship something, so they turned.

 

 

Those all turned because they were not reasonable and well adjusted personalities. Their betrayal is completely on them, and cannot really be blamed on someone else (anyone faces some hardship at some point, being given a tough time about something is no excuse), so they get no sympathy from me. The Primarchs that were subject to outside influences deserve more pity in my opinion.

 

Curze had inescapable visions of a terrible fate, which caused him no small distress. And he was not aware that his Legion was infused with criminal elements and turned from pragmatic enforcers into ruthless sadists. He was dealt a bad card.

 

Magnus could not keep his hands off of forbidden arcane knowledge. That was his "flaw", but he tried to do the right thing with it. Only due to misunderstanding did the Emperor pronounce him to be a traitor and send his Wolves at him, which then really drove Magnus to the other side. Things could have turned out differently, if there had been more understanding on both ends.

 

I kinda don't understand this to be honest, that's a vast oversimplification of all the Legion involved and those Legions even had larger outside influences to put them on their path.

 

It's certainly odd to contrast it with Magnus, considering with Perturbo and Fulgrim they also had good intentions but their station or outer influences turned them towards something else. If there had been more understanding on anyones end then things would of probably been put on the a different path.

 

Nevermind the idea that Curze was well adjusted which...I love Curze, but even before the fall that makes me scratch my head.

[Legatus]

Curze was not well adjusted. But it was not attitude problems that made him turn. He had a troubling affliction. And that eventually wore him down and broke him.

 

But Fulgrim or Perturabo? Put a different Primarch in their position, would they have acted the same? There is an anecdote in the Luna Wolves Index Astartes article. At one point both the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines were being repeatedly left behind by the Sons of Horus after successful campaigns to do the clean up work, while the Sons of Horus rushed on to new glorious battles. According to the Iron Warriors Index Astartes article it was such treatment which eventually disgruntled the Legion. However, the Luna Wolves article describes how Guilliman had confronted Horus about this practice. He dealt with the situation differently than Perturabo had.

 

There are also anecdotes of Perturabo flipping out at statements that Dorn might rival him at siegecraft on the one hand, and of Guilliman commending an Emperor's Children commander for outperforming the Ultramarines on the other.

 

I don't think the Salamanders display a lot of bitterness either, despite not getting the most glorious campaigns, and some harsh grinding and casualty rates. They were more accepting of their lot than the Iron Warriors.

 

Put another Primarch or Legion in their place, and they probably would not have turned against the Emperor.

 

Plus, Fulgrim and Perturabo made conscious decisions that led to them siding against the Emperor. With Curze and Magnus that decision was out of their hands. They became outcasts first, and only then decided to side with Horus. With Curze it was the deterioration of his Legion, with Magnus it was the Emperor accusing him of treason, even though neither that was their intention. They fell from grace first, and then out of necessity sided with Horus. The other Primarchs largely could have made the choice to stay loyal to the Emperor, but chose not to.

[Sete]

Perturabo is so underated.

[Carrack]

Kurze. He's not really evil he's just slowly driven insane by his powers and it takes a toll on both him and his legion. If the Emperor had guided him on his powers then there might of been hope for him. Though I think you could say that for quite a few of the other primarchs that with more involvement from the Emperor they would of fared better

I think displaying mutilated and tortured corpses is fairly evil, something the Night Haunter did from early on. He also displayed an ability to distinguish right from wrong by judging the crimes of his victims on Nostramo, and later when he lamented the state his legion had fallen to with the addition of replacements from his home world.

[Marshal Rohr]

The greatest tragedy of the Horus Heresy is what happened to the Imperium itself. A glorious star spanning empire conquered by the greatest armies known to history in the most powerful ships ever to sail the stars brought to ruin for nothing because Lorgar was embarrassed by the Ultramarines.

[Sothalor]

The greatest tragedy is that BL decided they could turn the HH into a perpetual cash cow of limited release novellas and anthologies of reprinted stories while doubling to tripling prices across the board.

[Loesh]

The greatest tragedy of the Horus Heresy is what happened to the Imperium itself. A glorious star spanning empire conquered by the greatest armies known to history in the most powerful ships ever to sail the stars brought to ruin for nothing because Lorgar was embarrassed by the Ultramarines.

Well, I mean. Let's examine what happens there on it's own and let's do it assuming the absolute worst of Lorgar.

Let's assume that Lorgar's gene flaw of overriding loyalty to something is making him delusional about the Emperor, let's assume the Word Bearers are knowingly contradicting the Imperial Truth and everything the Imperium stands for by spreading Religion, and let's assume even that their society is not as perfect as they say it is(Considering a meat vendor was lynched for selling dog meat, i'm willing to say not.) that entire incident is still one of the biggest things in the Horus Heresy where I wanted to grab the Emperor by the collar and shake him violently screaming "EMPEROR, WHAT THE ARE YOU DOING MAN?!"

He is still doing things(And let's assume for whatever reason, he couldn't do this sooner due to something on Terra.) that are expressly godlike or at absolute best Jesus like such as appearing in a gigantic flash of light as this multi-faceted psychic being that is painful to look upon by even Astartes after just demolishing an entire civilization for defying him, and his method of delivery to get the point across to Lorgar that he is not divine is to psychically ram his thoughts into one hundred thousand Legion Astartes and it so powerful and so painful that some of them think they are dying from the sheer force of it. Even if it was the only way to get the point across, maybe the Emperor as this super intellectual hyper being should of thought "Huh, maybe the fact I can perform feats of this magnitude might be why this whole misunderstanding is occurring and I shouldn't be so harsh as to destroy my sons greatest achievement and say they are all failures because they happen to be rather convinced i'm a divine being."

It's the whole thing of "Hey Emperor, if you're not a god why do you have pure golden armor, a fire sword, and a halo of glowing radiance ' taken to it's logical and most ridiculous of extremes by TELLING ME YOU ARE NOT A GOD WHILE YOU ARE EXPRESSLY PULLING GODLIKE THINGS OUT OF A MAGIC HAT IN FRONT OF ME AS IF TO TAUNT ME.

...

Apologies if that came off as hostile, I had to get that rant out of my system. The Emperor has so many of these moments in the Horus Heresy now where it's like....what possible justification? for the most intelligent being in the galaxy you sure are dumb.