What is the greatest tragedy in the Horus Heresy to you?

[Loesh]

Or just, I don't know, teleport like 300 custodes between the slave army and the High Riders and say anyone who crosses the line gets gutted.

 

There's no reason to torch even a fraction of the entire planet and the compliance would be violent anyway, why not start then?

[Legatus]

I think "hurting Angron's pride" is a gross oversimplification of having to watch his entire adopted family murdered.

 

They would have died regardless. The only difference was that Angron did not die with them. The Emperor's crime was to not let Angron die at the moment he desired to.

 

 

Or just, I don't know, teleport like 300 custodes between the slave army and the High Riders and say anyone who crosses the line gets gutted.

 

The slaves were surrounded by five armies, from the different rulers of that world. If the Emperor had intervened militarily it would have led to all out war. Against a world with advanced technology, and access to some relic tech.

 

And possibly the consideration was not just the preservation of this one world. A world with advanced technology could easily have been a linchpin for the entire system.

It is also conceivable that the Mechanicus pleaded with the Emperor to spare that world, so they could study their technology, without risking to lose vital science personell, laboratories or libraries.

 

Of what value are a thousand escaped slaves? After a few decades they would have died from natural causes, and Angron would have outlived them anyway. But how valuable is a stable region of space, or the discovery of unknown technology? All weighed against the sentimentality of a Primarch. The slaves died free and fighting, just as they wanted. And Angron would have gladly died with them. But the Emperor denied him that wish.

 

For his decision, the Emperor got a Primarch for one of his Space Marine legions. The World Eaters would have liberated tens of thousands of worlds from alien or chaos oppressors over the course of the Great Crusade. Not a bad outcome. But the Emperor could not foresee that his dearest Son would betray him, and take half of his brothers with him. Would Angron's grudge have led him to openly defy the Emperor, had not Horus and Lorgar talked him into it? Or would Angron have been content smashing oppressive regimes on the worlds he conquered, recognizing that his survival was in the end for a greater good?

[Loesh]

 

I think "hurting Angron's pride" is a gross oversimplification of having to watch his entire adopted family murdered.

 

They would have died regardless. The only difference was that Angron did not die with them. The Emperor's crime was to not let Angron die at the moment he desired to.

 

 

Or just, I don't know, teleport like 300 custodes between the slave army and the High Riders and say anyone who crosses the line gets gutted.

 

The slaves were surrounded by five armies, from the different rulers of that world. If the Emperor had intervened militarily it would have led to all out war. Against a world with advanced technology, and access to some relic tech.

 

And possibly the consideration was not just the preservation of this one world. A world with advanced technology could easily have been a linchpin for the entire system.

It is also conceivable that the Mechanicus pleaded with the Emperor to spare that world, so they could study their technology, without risking to lose vital science personell, laboratories or libraries.

 

Of what value are a thousand escaped slaves? After a few decades they would have died from natural causes, and Angron would have outlived them anyway. But how valuable is a stable region of space, or the discovery of unknown technology? All weighed against the sentimentality of a Primarch. The slaves died free and fighting, just as they wanted. And Angron would have gladly died with them. But the Emperor denied him that wish.

 

For his decision, the Emperor got a Primarch for one of his Space Marine legions. The World Eaters would have liberated tens of thousands of worlds from alien or chaos oppressors over the course of the Great Crusade. Not a bad outcome. But the Emperor could not foresee that his dearest Son would betray him, and take half of his brothers with him. Would Angron's grudge have led him to openly defy the Emperor, had not Horus and Lorgar talked him into it? Or would Angron have been content smashing oppressive regimes on the worlds he conquered, recognizing that his survival was in the end for a greater good?

 

 

Angron turning on the Emperor was merely a question of when, not if, his mind was degenerating and he saw nothing worthy of his father...Horus just gave him an excuse.

 

I would imagine that the Emperor was detached from humanity, not stupid. He had to have known that taking Angron would of been the highest offense, there would be no thanking for the rescue...because I doubt any of the other Primarchs would thank him in the same circumstances and he had to of known that. His sentimentality would of been more valuable then anything the world could offer short of tech from the Dark Age of Technology, he'd be jeopardizing his sons loyalty for greed.

 

What would happen if he told Angron all this? That the Emperor would side with slavers who dug cruel nails into the meat of his brain? That this foul technology that ruined his life and would ruin the lives of all it touched was worth the life of his brothers and sisters.?

 

It's not merely a violation of parenthood, it's a violation of common sense. 

[Flint13]

 

I think "hurting Angron's pride" is a gross oversimplification of having to watch his entire adopted family murdered.

 

They would have died regardless. The only difference was that Angron did not die with them. The Emperor's crime was to not let Angron die at the moment he desired to.

 

 

Yeah, they would have. The point is how they would have died. The Emperor's crime wasn't pulling Angron away from certain death. We don't know if he would have survived or even changed the outcome of De'shea. That is up in the air. What we do know is that by pulling him away from his adopted family, he positively cemented Angron's enmity which eventually bit him in his golden ass majorly.

 

 

 

 

Or just, I don't know, teleport like 300 custodes between the slave army and the High Riders and say anyone who crosses the line gets gutted.

 

The slaves were surrounded by five armies, from the different rulers of that world. If the Emperor had intervened militarily it would have led to all out war. Against a world with advanced technology, and access to some relic tech.

 

And possibly the consideration was not just the preservation of this one world. A world with advanced technology could easily have been a linchpin for the entire system.

It is also conceivable that the Mechanicus pleaded with the Emperor to spare that world, so they could study their technology, without risking to lose vital science personell, laboratories or libraries.

 

Of what value are a thousand escaped slaves? After a few decades they would have died from natural causes, and Angron would have outlived them anyway. But how valuable is a stable region of space, or the discovery of unknown technology? All weighed against the sentimentality of a Primarch. The slaves died free and fighting, just as they wanted. And Angron would have gladly died with them. But the Emperor denied him that wish.

 

For his decision, the Emperor got a Primarch for one of his Space Marine legions. The World Eaters would have liberated tens of thousands of worlds from alien or chaos oppressors over the course of the Great Crusade. Not a bad outcome. But the Emperor could not foresee that his dearest Son would betray him, and take half of his brothers with him. Would Angron's grudge have led him to openly defy the Emperor, had not Horus and Lorgar talked him into it? Or would Angron have been content smashing oppressive regimes on the worlds he conquered, recognizing that his survival was in the end for a greater good?

 

 

Who cares if a single planet is wiped out? Hell, even several planets in a system. It happens literally all the time in the fluff. A non-compliant planet or planetary chain is reduced to its component parts, the infrastructure razed to the ground and repopulated with Imperial citizens. 

 

The sentimentality of a Primarch you don't want as an enemy is more than worth a system and then some. 

 

For his short-sighted, time saving decision, the Emperor got a Primarch, sure, but one who hated him and rebelled at almost every opportunity which is arguably worse than not aquiring him in the first place. From the very first moments of their relationship, Angron saw the Emperor as every bit the worthless High Rider scum that he had just fought to free himself and his family from. That is definitely a bad outcome. 

 

What is the value of a stable system weighted against the stable loyalty of a Primarch? The value of a thousand escaped slaves who will die of natural causes is worth the loyalty of the most vicious super weapon that had ever been created within the bounds of the universe, sentimentality or no. 

[Loesh]

More importantly, it wasn't worth the loyalty of a Legion of Astartes too.

 

If Angron wasn't loyal, it's fair to say the World Eaters wouldn't of been either.

[Legatus]

Angron turning on the Emperor was merely a question of when, not if, his mind was degenerating and he saw nothing worthy of his father...Horus just gave him an excuse.

 

Angron was turned by Horus in both the Index Astartes and the Forgeworld Horus Heresy book. If Horus had been loyal instead, he could have calmed Angron, even if only for one or two decades more, until the Great Crusade had been essentially over. At that point the Emperor could have dealt with Angron as appropriate.

 

 

We don't know if he would have survived or even changed the outcome of De'shea. That is up in the air.

 

The article describes in fairly certain terms that Angron would not have survived.

 

"On a mountain named Fedan Mhor, as darkness fell, Angron was finally surrounded by no less than five vastly superior armies and it looked as though the slave rebellion was finally over. Not even the Primarch could stand against such numbers, and the following day's battle would surely see him dead. (...)

Angron and the slaves dug their graves during the night, a signal to their enemies that they would fight to the death rather than surrender. The Emperor knew that even though Angron was a Primarch, he would perish in the coming battle (...)"

- Index Astartes World Eaters

 

 

Who cares if a single planet is wiped out? Hell, even several planets in a system. It happens literally all the time in the fluff.

 

That is exactly the view of the setting I was talking about in my initial reply:

 

"There is a simple and obvious explanation for why the Emperor teleported out Angron instead of "helping" him. But in this universe of constand genocidal wars it may not be occurring to everyone."

 

The Emperor is making decisions about the lives of millions, billions. And in this instance, he made the decision to spare millions of lives of a technologically advanced civilisation. And Angron did fight as a general in the Great Crusade, up until the point where Horus betrayed the Emperor and convinced Angron to join him. It may not have taken that much convincing given Angron's grudge, but it did take Horus to really turn him against the Emperor. So really, disregadring Horus' betrayal, the outcome of the Emperor's decision had been positive.

[Loesh]

Positive isn't the word i'd use. One of the commanders of his Legions was a broken hateful man who loathed every ounce of his existence and sought serenity only in butchery and there was no way the Emperor couldn't of known Angron would be mentally damaged by that act.

 

And under the World Eaters blades uncountable billions had died before the Horus Heresy had begun with neither mercy nor restraint. If the argument is that he did this for the greater good then...well...he did a poor job of achieving that goal.

 

[Flint13]

 

 So really, disregadring Horus' betrayal, the outcome of the Emperor's decision had been positive.

 

So if we *disregard Horus's betrayal of the Emperor, the Horus Heresy wasn't that bad, is what I'm getting. 

[Legatus]

No, if Horus hadn't talked Angron into rebelling against the Emperor, then Angron and the World Eaters would simply have done their duty in the Great Crusade. Nothing bad would have come from the Emperor's decision. Hurting Angron's pride would not have had negative consequences. In the end it made it easier for Horus to turn Angron, but it did not make Anrgon turn by himself.

 

(That Angron insisted on mutilating his own Legionaries into frothing madmen had nothing to do with the Emperor's saving of Angron or with Horus, that was a different issue alltogether.)

[Flint13]

No, if Horus hadn't talked Angron into rebelling against the Emperor, then Angron and the World Eaters would simply have done their duty in the Great Crusade. Nothing bad would have come from the Emperor's decision. Hurting Angron's pride would not have had negative consequences. In the end it made it easier for Horus to turn Angron, but it did not make Anrgon turn by himself.

 

(That Angron insisted on mutilating his own Legionaries into frothing madmen had nothing to do with the Emperor's saving of Angron or with Horus, that was a different issue alltogether.)

 

That statement is making a hella lot of assumptions. 

 

What on Terra makes you think that a legion full of mentally degenerating, unstable mad men would have "simply done their duty" in the Great Crusade without Horus's say so? 

 

Horus had nothing to do with why Angron hated the Emperor. Angron's preexisting grudge against the Emperor because of his decision at De'shea was enough to give Horus his foot in the door with swaying Angron to his cause. It was the Emperor's poor decision at De'shea that made him a target for Angron's hatred. Take away that grudge, and Angron has far less reason to cause problems for the Imperium during the Great Crusade or fall in with Horus and company when they turn traitor.

 

Either way, the outcome of the XII legion after Angron's return and the legion-wide implantation of the nails isn't up for debate. They went cray. However that trainwreck progressed, you're left with an entire legion of frothing berzerkers. But do you want to add that entire legion and its Primarch to the long, long list of things you have to fight in the galaxy, or do you want a greater chance at keeping them as an asset on your own side that will be an obstacle for your enemies?

 

At the very least, I'm sure Gulliman and the XIIIth might have appreciated not having Angron to contend with. 

[Legatus]

 

No, if Horus hadn't talked Angron into rebelling against the Emperor, then Angron and the World Eaters would simply have done their duty in the Great Crusade.

 

That statement is making a hella lot of assumptions. 

 

What on Terra makes you think that a legion full of mentally degenerating, unstable mad men would have "simply done their duty" in the Great Crusade without Horus's say so? 

 

This:

 

"Blood rites became an increasingly important part of the Legion's heritage as their slaughter continued across the galaxy, and it became common practice for Space Marines to compete in the number of enemy skulls they could take in battle. Many of Angron's brother Primarchs voiced their concerns to the Emperor, and now the Master of Mankind made a fatal error. He dispatched Horus, the most trusted of all the Primarchs, to confront Angron and bring him back into line. Horus was a master psychologist and, unbeknownst to the Emperor, had already been corrupted by the Chaos powers. In Angron he saw a warrior consumed by bitterness and resentment, and it was a simple matter for Horus to feed that bitterness, emphasizing the Emperor's betrayal, painting him as a weakling in need of replacing. He told Angron exactly what he wanted to hear and, when Horus eventually betrayed the Emperor, beginning the first galactic civil war, Angron's World Eaters marched beside the Sons of Horus."

- 3rd Edition Index Astartes World Eaters

 

"Later, wishing once more to bring the World Eaters back to the fold, the Emperor turned to Horus, then his most trusted son and recently appointed Warmaster, asking him to confront and challenge Angron, to mentor and work upon his fellor Primarch and bring him back into line. In this was a terrible and grievous miscalculation made, for Horus had become himself corrupted by the Warp and in Angron's wrathful heart bitterness soon became treachery."

- The Horus Heresy Book One: Betrayal, p. 88

 

The HH1 description is less explicite in how Horus had worked on Angron to corrupt him, but it is still the same story. This even goes back to 2nd Edition, but I know people around here don't give much on that.

 

"Even before the Heresy the Worldeaters were noted for their savagery. They were censured by the Emperor for their use of psycho-surgery on new recruits to turn them into frothing madmen. Nonetheless the Worldeaters were invaluable terror troops in the Great Crusade and fought at the forefront of all the greatest campaigns. It was a simple matter for Horus to pervert the Worldeaters' bloody Legion rituals into the worship of Chaos. Under his corrupting influence the Worldeaters quickly became devoted to Khorne the blood god."

- 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 18

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

"On a mountain named Fedan Mhor, as darkness fell, Angron was finally surrounded by no less than five vastly superior armies and it looked as though the slave rebellion was finally over. Not even the Primarch could stand against such numbers, and the following day's battle would surely see him dead. (...)

Angron and the slaves dug their graves during the night, a signal to their enemies that they would fight to the death rather than surrender. The Emperor knew that even though Angron was a Primarch, he would perish in the coming battle (...)"

- Index Astartes World Eaters

 

The Slavers had 5 vastly superior armies over Angron and his fellow rebels...sure, I can believe that. I don't think many of the slavers would have walked away from that fight, but they'd win in the end.

 

However, if one adds:

-The Emperor (one of the mightiest warriors and psykers in existence)

- Adeptus Custodes retinue (bamfs, one and all)

- the War Hounds (in whatever strength they were in and desperate for their primarch)

- whatever Ad Mech presence was attached to the Emperor's personal ship (i think it's safe to assume atleast some Knights, maybe even a Titan)

-almost forgot naval & aerial support such as gunships, orbital bombardment and such

 

add that bag of Whoop-ass to the "mere" thousand battle hardened Gladiators and Primarch, then it's a much different story.

 

An article written years before the Black Library even dreamed of fleshing out the Heresy and from a pro-Imperial perspective is hardly reliable enough to draw "simple" conclusions from

 

WLK

[Noserenda]

Yep Angron was definitely the most tragic primarch, the others all ultimately CHOSE to rebel (Especially Magnus, who repeated chose pride over sense and currently appears to be pretty literally sat on a fence thinking things over) but Angrons choices were often forced on him by outside agency, the Eldar crippling him so the Slavers could put in the nails being only the first part but ultimately the bit that affected every other choice made afterwards. 

Deshea was the next big tip, the Emperor chose to abandon Angrons army and then strut off (Possibly for good reasons) but in a very real sense Broke Angrons heart and showed an absolute lack of any support or even training, leaving Angron to his own devices and ultimately vulnerable to Horus gaining his loyalty instead and at that point the nails, khorne and Angrons own loyal nature damned him and his legion.

Actually tragic. Not just unfortunate. 

[hutch2mutch]

Had everybody forgot about poor old if ace karkasy? And then there's what happened to Mersadie oliton....

[Frosco Toppings]

Had everybody forgot about poor old if ace karkasy? And then there's what happened to Mersadie oliton....

Don't forget Keeler. She seemed cute until she got turned into a fundamentalist

[hutch2mutch]

Nah, she's sound. Gone on to a higher purpose nothing quite upsetting yet... But I'm re-reading betrayer.

 

And you know what I really feel for the librarians of the XII legion "nah wot I mean"?

[Void Knight]

On the topic of why the Emperor never went down to the Nuceria to fight with Angron, I remember in A Thousand Sons where Ahriman is telling Lemuel about the history of the Thousand Sons Legion.  Ahriman states that the XV Legion was given the name Thousand Sons before their numbers dropped to 1000.  Seeing that many Legion names were predestined for some role, who's to say that the Legion's respective primarchs weren't groomed for those roles as well.  The Emperor could have seen that he needed a Legion of berserkers, and Angron's current standing in life (what with the Butcher's Nails lodged in his head) fit the bill.

[Augustus]

Maybe Angron failed his test. They all were thrown to world's they were meant to conquer/rule.

[Augustus]

 

I think "hurting Angron's pride" is a gross oversimplification of having to watch his entire adopted family murdered.

 

They would have died regardless. The only difference was that Angron did not die with them. The Emperor's crime was to not let Angron die at the moment he desired to.

 

 

Or just, I don't know, teleport like 300 custodes between the slave army and the High Riders and say anyone who crosses the line gets gutted.

 

The slaves were surrounded by five armies, from the different rulers of that world. If the Emperor had intervened militarily it would have led to all out war. Against a world with advanced technology, and access to some relic tech.

 

And possibly the consideration was not just the preservation of this one world. A world with advanced technology could easily have been a linchpin for the entire system.

It is also conceivable that the Mechanicus pleaded with the Emperor to spare that world, so they could study their technology, without risking to lose vital science personell, laboratories or libraries.

 

Of what value are a thousand escaped slaves? After a few decades they would have died from natural causes, and Angron would have outlived them anyway. But how valuable is a stable region of space, or the discovery of unknown technology? All weighed against the sentimentality of a Primarch. The slaves died free and fighting, just as they wanted. And Angron would have gladly died with them. But the Emperor denied him that wish.

 

For his decision, the Emperor got a Primarch for one of his Space Marine legions. The World Eaters would have liberated tens of thousands of worlds from alien or chaos oppressors over the course of the Great Crusade. Not a bad outcome. But the Emperor could not foresee that his dearest Son would betray him, and take half of his brothers with him. Would Angron's grudge have led him to openly defy the Emperor, had not Horus and Lorgar talked him into it? Or would Angron have been content smashing oppressive regimes on the worlds he conquered, recognizing that his survival was in the end for a greater good?

 

And like that Legatus is on the path of convincing me. Awesome reasoning.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Maybe Angron failed his test. They all were thrown to world's they were meant to conquer/rule.

I was pondering just this the other day.

 

The other primarchs delivered their worlds to the Emperor.  Angron delivered a failed slave rebellion.  A sense of mild disappointment, coupled with the Emperor's chronic inability to empathize with basic human emotion, may have caused him to view the situation as completely disposable.

[Legatus]

Both the Index Astartes (WE) as well as HH1: Betrayal (p. 86) describe that the Emperor had "watched with pride as Angron had led his outmatched revolt". He could not blame Angron for the hand that he was dealt. What he saw was that Angron led the downtrodden against their oppressors, no matter how hopeless.

[Augustus]

How long did he watch it for?

[GoogleusMaximus]

Long enough to decide not to directly intervene...

Perhaps he wanted to avoid the instability of the slaves, they all had the nails as well and if Angron wanted to have them elevated to astartes or in the way that Luther and Kor Phareon were elevated... well they could have been toxic for the legion

[Marshal Rohr]

Legatus is exactly right. The Emperor was not above getting rid of Primarchs, see the expunged Legions. A world controlled by a technologically advanced civilization is worth more to the Imperium than a guerrilla army. So the Emperor got the best of both worlds by snagging Angron and bringing Nuceria into the fold.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Legatus is exactly right. The Emperor was not above getting rid of Primarchs, see the expunged Legions. A world controlled by a technologically advanced civilization is worth more to the Imperium than a guerrilla army. So the Emperor got the best of both worlds by snagging Angron and bringing Nuceria into the fold.

Except for the whole emtionally scarred, unstable primarch ready to lead his legion in revolt thing. 

 

So...best of one world, maybe.