What is the greatest tragedy in the Horus Heresy to you?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Legatus is exactly right. The Emperor was not above getting rid of Primarchs, see the expunged Legions. A world controlled by a technologically advanced civilization is worth more to the Imperium than a guerrilla army. So the Emperor got the best of both worlds by snagging Angron and bringing Nuceria into the fold.

Except for the whole emtionally scarred, unstable primarch ready to lead his legion in revolt thing.

 

So...best of one world, maybe.

Which only happened because Horus persuaded him. Had Horus not turned Angron, the nails would've killed him. There is no guarentee he would've revolted before dying. Horus turning him and the nails killing him are in universe facts, him revolting on his own is fan conjecture.

[GoogleusMaximus]

 

Legatus is exactly right. The Emperor was not above getting rid of Primarchs, see the expunged Legions. A world controlled by a technologically advanced civilization is worth more to the Imperium than a guerrilla army. So the Emperor got the best of both worlds by snagging Angron and bringing Nuceria into the fold.

Except for the whole emtionally scarred, unstable primarch ready to lead his legion in revolt thing. 

 

So...best of one world, maybe.

 

 

Every Legion seems to have been designed or build with a purpose in mind... now what the original designs for Angron were we may never know.

 

What we do know is that the War Hounds received a broken Primarch who was incapable of subtly or much by way of tactics... and in order to understand him they broke themselves in the same fashion.

 

Take Khârn for example... what was he like before the Nails, we get glimpses of it I think in his more calm moments and in that lovely short story... he was noble, brave, and quite intelligent.

 

I think the Emperor saw the broken Primarch and chose to make use of him anyway, the Nails were killing him and the Emperor made sure that was kept very quiet. Perhaps it was because of this his father chose to make him and his legion into a monsterous attack dog, uncontrollable once off the chain... useful for however long he had left by clearing worlds for Imperial settlement.

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

Legatus is exactly right. The Emperor was not above getting rid of Primarchs, see the expunged Legions. A world controlled by a technologically advanced civilization is worth more to the Imperium than a guerrilla army. So the Emperor got the best of both worlds by snagging Angron and bringing Nuceria into the fold.

Except for the whole emtionally scarred, unstable primarch ready to lead his legion in revolt thing.

 

So...best of one world, maybe.

Which only happened because Horus persuaded him. Had Horus not turned Angron, the nails would've killed him. There is no guarentee he would've revolted before dying. Horus turning him and the nails killing him are in universe facts, him revolting on his own is fan conjecture.

 

Except I didn't say that it was a mathematical certainty that he would.  It's established "universe facts" that the traitor primarchs had grievances, many of them legitimate, against the Emperor.  The loyalists largely did not. 

 

The Emperor's handling of Angron's discovery is, in "universe facts," Angron's grievance against him.  It follows, therefore, that a different handling might have averted it. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The nails doomed Angron from the day they were implanted. That's impossible to deny. His 'legitimate' grievances are irrelevent. It's like Woodrow Wilson. He didn't like big corporations political influence and thought democracy was great, but he was a huge racist. Angron thought the Emperor was a murderous tyrant, but it was really hard to hear him over the sound of all the people he was murdering.

 

Additionally, Angron's grievances against the Emperor are not legitimate, because they are based on a very post-modern world view that only exists in our present time, specifically in the West. Since Imperialism is disdained by most post-modernists as inherently racist and nationalistic readers naturally assume Angron is in the right. It does not take into account that 28,000 years from now social and political theories will drastically change and the existence of malevolent, hostile alien species would dictate that unified humans are safer than disparate human empires (considering the weak writing that forces this hand by making all other races unified from the outset). The problem with Imperialism comes from bad emperors and policy, not the idea of a unified political entity comprised of seperate states under the leadership of a powerful, central state. The Emperor was not space hitler/Stalin and is probably the ideal person to actually lead an empire given his supernatural abilities. So to say Angron was right because our own social/political worldview enculturated us against the idea of imperial conquest is completely disingenuous

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

Pretty much what we got

[Sete]

Honestly Angron never caught my attention.

He was broken, stayed broken, and should have been disposed.

[Loesh]

Angron eventually turning on the Emperor is apparently conjecture despite all the information we have regarding his increasing degradation and his hatred of his father. But it's apparently factual that the Emperor would of been the best person to lead humanity despite the incomplete knowledge of the trillions of worlds under human rule and our EXTREMELY limited understanding of the Emperors powers which could have a source in anything from a pact with Chaos, natural psychic ability, a gestalt of human psyches melded together, or something we don't even know about yet as well as not knowing how much foresight he had or if that foresight was even reliable.

 

It just doesn't work, the evidence that Angron would of eventually slipped the leash is much stronger then the evidence that the Emperor was an objectively better ruler then any other humanity could of had...he just had the tools to carry out it's conquest.

[Flint13]

 ++ Bros, we've gotten a lot of cool, interesting debate going on in here, but avoid the personal jabs.

 

First and last warning, please and thanks. ++

[Marshal Rohr]

Angron eventually turning on the Emperor is apparently conjecture despite all the information we have regarding his increasing degradation and his hatred of his father. But it's apparently factual that the Emperor would of been the best person to lead humanity despite the incomplete knowledge of the trillions of worlds under human rule and our EXTREMELY limited understanding of the Emperors powers which could have a source in anything from a pact with Chaos, natural psychic ability, a gestalt of human psyches melded together, or something we don't even know about yet as well as not knowing how much foresight he had or if that foresight was even reliable.

 

It just doesn't work, the evidence that Angron would of eventually slipped the leash is much stronger then the evidence that the Emperor was an objectively better ruler then any other humanity could of had...he just had the tools to carry out it's conquest.

It's in universe fact that the Emperor is the singularity (see the in universe Singularitarian cult) and the authors have not been subtle suggesting he is the pinnacle of human ability both natural and supernatural. We know that Angron had faithfully served for decades in spite of his personal reservations and was not becoming more likely to rebel as time when on. All in text descriptions have him less and less willing to put on a facade as a righteous liberator, but almost nothing written describes the world eaters easing up or not following orders. The world eaters disillusionment with the Imperium did not stop them from wiping out populations, they just didn't dress it up as anything but state sanctioned genocide.

 

I understand why you think the Emperor isn't the best option, but it isn't a given that is actually the case. If the trillions of humans had a better alternative to the Emperors plan, then we would know about it. The writers have made it clear the Emperors plan was the one that worked best, hence it's success.

[Loesh]

 

Angron eventually turning on the Emperor is apparently conjecture despite all the information we have regarding his increasing degradation and his hatred of his father. But it's apparently factual that the Emperor would of been the best person to lead humanity despite the incomplete knowledge of the trillions of worlds under human rule and our EXTREMELY limited understanding of the Emperors powers which could have a source in anything from a pact with Chaos, natural psychic ability, a gestalt of human psyches melded together, or something we don't even know about yet as well as not knowing how much foresight he had or if that foresight was even reliable.

 

It just doesn't work, the evidence that Angron would of eventually slipped the leash is much stronger then the evidence that the Emperor was an objectively better ruler then any other humanity could of had...he just had the tools to carry out it's conquest.

It's in universe fact that the Emperor is the singularity (see the in universe Singularitarian cult) and the authors have not been subtle suggesting he is the pinnacle of human ability both natural and supernatural. We know that Angron had faithfully served for decades in spite of his personal reservations and was not becoming more likely to rebel as time when on. All in text descriptions have him less and less willing to put on a facade as a righteous liberator, but almost nothing written describes the world eaters easing up or not following orders. The world eaters disillusionment with the Imperium did not stop them from wiping out populations, they just didn't dress it up as anything but state sanctioned genocide.

 

I understand why you think the Emperor isn't the best option, but it isn't a given that is actually the case. If the trillions of humans had a better alternative to the Emperors plan, then we would know about it. The writers have made it clear the Emperors plan was the one that worked best, hence it's success.

 

 

But that's the thing, the Emperors plan wasn't a success. We've had people arguing with and against him at various points, we know the Emperor IS extremely intelligent and powerful but if he was a well balanced ruler is up in the air. Inevitably he could not see(Apparently.) the full extent of what Chaos could do, was apparently mistaken in his belief about faith and emotion, and may or may not of just shrugged off a warning from Eldrad due to his anti-xenos tilt according to an Eldar Ranger in 3rd edition if you still put stock in that.

 

Ultimately we do know that the Imperium dies(Or is in the process of dying.) due to what seem to be mistakes on his end of things or simple ignorance that the problems were even there. Maybe it was part of some grand plan, but short of that maybe it would of better if we had something with a thought process more akin to the Interex in charge of humanity.

[Marshal Rohr]

I would argue we don't know of the Emperor's plan (macro level) was a success because of Horus' rebellion. Had the Great Crusade ended without the Heresy all of the emperors means to justify his end might've been vindicated. I would also argue that although the Emperor seems incompetent in some aspects because his plan was detailed before it was realized, that is because he was up against four incredibly powerful primordial dieties that knew if they could not throw him off the top of his mountain, they could undermine it by corrupting his less powerful generals and bring the whole thing down anyway. The creation of the Primarchs was probably an exercise in the Emperor's hubris that ultimately led to his downfall, but that also doesn't mean the Primarchs are not responsible for their own actions. Also, the Emperor being the best option to lead humanity and failing because of something he did doesn't disqualify him from the first. If chaos did not exist, wouldn't his plan have allegedly advanced humanity into a golden age? My point basically stands that the Emperor was the best to lead humanity, but lost. Like a world champion boxer losing a fight on an off day. It doesn't mean the other guy is better or that the champion isn't a stellar athlete, he just got beaten because of something beyond his control.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

Angron eventually turning on the Emperor is apparently conjecture despite all the information we have regarding his increasing degradation and his hatred of his father. But it's apparently factual that the Emperor would of been the best person to lead humanity despite the incomplete knowledge of the trillions of worlds under human rule and our EXTREMELY limited understanding of the Emperors powers which could have a source in anything from a pact with Chaos, natural psychic ability, a gestalt of human psyches melded together, or something we don't even know about yet as well as not knowing how much foresight he had or if that foresight was even reliable.

 

It just doesn't work, the evidence that Angron would of eventually slipped the leash is much stronger then the evidence that the Emperor was an objectively better ruler then any other humanity could of had...he just had the tools to carry out it's conquest.

It's in universe fact that the Emperor is the singularity (see the in universe Singularitarian cult) and the authors have not been subtle suggesting he is the pinnacle of human ability both natural and supernatural. We know that Angron had faithfully served for decades in spite of his personal reservations and was not becoming more likely to rebel as time when on. All in text descriptions have him less and less willing to put on a facade as a righteous liberator, but almost nothing written describes the world eaters easing up or not following orders. The world eaters disillusionment with the Imperium did not stop them from wiping out populations, they just didn't dress it up as anything but state sanctioned genocide.

 

I understand why you think the Emperor isn't the best option, but it isn't a given that is actually the case. If the trillions of humans had a better alternative to the Emperors plan, then we would know about it. The writers have made it clear the Emperors plan was the one that worked best, hence it's success.

But that's the thing, the Emperors plan wasn't a success. We've had people arguing with and against him at various points, we know the Emperor IS extremely intelligent and powerful but if he was a well balanced ruler is up in the air. Inevitably he could not see(Apparently.) the full extent of what Chaos could do, was apparently mistaken in his belief about faith and emotion, and may or may not of just shrugged off a warning from Eldrad due to his anti-xenos tilt according to an Eldar Ranger in 3rd edition if you still put stock in that.

 

Ultimately we do know that the Imperium dies(Or is in the process of dying.) due to what seem to be mistakes on his end of things or simple ignorance that the problems were even there. Maybe it was part of some grand plan, but short of that maybe it would of better if we had something with a thought process more akin to the Interex in charge of humanity.

Going back to what I said earlier, we only identify with the Interex as inherently good because of our current prevalent socio-political theories recognize the inclusive civilization lines up with how we were raised. I agree that the Interex are ideal, but I don't know if they are best in the reality of 30k.

[Loesh]

That depends on what qualifies as a 'Golden Age' to you, slavery was commonplace and worlds rendered into pretty horrible places to live over the Great Crusade, not to the terrible extent of the Imperium of Man but still pretty noticeable  Could humanity of achieved galactic conquest and safety without that? Hard to say.

 

And yes to an extent our own socio-political ideals color our vision of what would be ideal in our leaders, but just as it's true that they might not be valid in ten thousand years that's not to say they are invalid either. Xenos weren't universally evil in nature but were still exterminated without consideration of the case by case basis for...as far as I can tell...time constraints, status as a protectorate only considered when the race in question put up so much of a fight as no alternative seemed available. Likewise while Lorgars worlds weren't perfect paradises, they weren't bad either and the Emperor seemed to have more of a problem with how slow the Great Crusade was going rather then the religion itself.

 

It often seemed like the Emperor was cutting corners and racing against something, and I wish we knew what it was(Maybe he foresaw the Horus Heresy? Maybe he just was lazy and wanted quick compliance's.) because I think that would settle a lot of it.

[Marshal Rohr]

That depends on what qualifies as a 'Golden Age' to you, slavery was commonplace and worlds rendered into pretty horrible places to live over the Great Crusade, not to the terrible extent of the Imperium of Man but still pretty noticeable Could humanity of achieved galactic conquest and safety without that? Hard to say.

 

And yes to an extent our own socio-political ideals color our vision of what would be ideal in our leaders, but just as it's true that they might not be valid in ten thousand years that's not to say they are invalid either. Xenos weren't universally evil in nature but were still exterminated without consideration of the case by case basis for...as far as I can tell...time constraints, status as a protectorate only considered when the race in question put up so much of a fight as no alternative seemed available. Likewise while Lorgars worlds weren't perfect paradises, they weren't bad either and the Emperor seemed to have more of a problem with how slow the Great Crusade was going rather then the religion itself.

 

It often seemed like the Emperor was cutting corners and racing against something, and I wish we knew what it was(Maybe he foresaw the Horus Heresy? Maybe he just was lazy and wanted quick compliance's.) because I think that would settle a lot of it.

Points taken. I think that would certainly answer a lot of question.

[Legatus]

the evidence that Angron would of eventually slipped the leash is much stronger then the evidence that the Emperor was an objectively better ruler then any other humanity could of had

 

No. There is actual lore, even if from older sources, that specifically states that only the Emperor could steer mankind on a narrow path of survival he alone could see. No Emperor, no mankind.

 

The lore for Angron's betrayal explains that Horus worked on him, convinced him that the Emperor had to be opposed. Now, had Horus not been corrupted and planning his own rebellion, then he would have come to Angron as a loyal son of the Emperor and well liked brother. He would have convinced him that the Great Crusade was righteous. He could have told him that for every single one of Angron's fallen slave comrades, the World Eaters had liberated at least ten worlds from alien oppression. That his survival on that day had a purpose. Their death was over a century in the past by that point. Angron would have seen millions die for the Imperial cause by then, diluting his early experiences. No Horus, no renegade World Eaters.

 

The greater problem in that scenraio would have been the use of the Nails, which Horus was supposed to put an end to. Angron's Nails would have eventually killed him, according to BL material. He would have died a problem child, disobedient even, but Imperial.

[Black Cohort]

Angron's death due to the nails could have been great propaganda victory for the Imperium. The imperium was needed to rid the galaxy of groups that would force surgeries never the emperor's own sons and that no known science could reverse.

[Loesh]

 

the evidence that Angron would of eventually slipped the leash is much stronger then the evidence that the Emperor was an objectively better ruler then any other humanity could of had

 

No. There is actual lore, even if from older sources, that specifically states that only the Emperor could steer mankind on a narrow path of survival he alone could see. No Emperor, no mankind.

 

The lore for Angron's betrayal explains that Horus worked on him, convinced him that the Emperor had to be opposed. Now, had Horus not been corrupted and planning his own rebellion, then he would have come to Angron as a loyal son of the Emperor and well liked brother. He would have convinced him that the Great Crusade was righteous. He could have told him that for every single one of Angron's fallen slave comrades, the World Eaters had liberated at least ten worlds from alien oppression. That his survival on that day had a purpose. Their death was over a century in the past by that point. Angron would have seen millions die for the Imperial cause by then, diluting his early experiences. No Horus, no renegade World Eaters.

 

The greater problem in that scenraio would have been the use of the Nails, which Horus was supposed to put an end to. Angron's Nails would have eventually killed him, according to BL material. He would have died a problem child, disobedient even, but Imperial.

 

 

That's older lore though, older lore also states that the Emperor was a combination of 100 shamans who congealed into a psychic entity and...is that even true anymore? The Horus Heresy has added so much more detail to the setting that was should take that with a grain of salt. Now we have things like...for example...the Night of the Wolf where the World Eaters flat out got into a fight with another imperial force that resulted in actual dead, and Angron was starting to get worse.

[Legatus]

It is old lore. The specific details about mankind's psychic evolution are no longer described in newer material. However, this is from the 7th Edition Rulebook (or Backgroundbook), from the section "The Imperium of Man":

 

"his great mind endures inside a rotting carcass, kept alive by the mysteries of ancient technology. His immense psychic powers reach out from the Golden Throne, enveloping and protecting Mankind across the enemy-strewn galaxy, a beacon of light in the malevolent darkness.
If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consuming Daemons will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space – a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos.

 

The Emperor has neither spoken nor moved since his incarceration in the arcane mechanisms of the Golden Throne. His much-revered material body is, for all intents, dead, and his psychic mind is wholly preoccupied combating the denizens of the Warp. He fights an eternal battle against the unimaginable horrors of that dangerous realm for the preservation of Mankind, keeping closed the rifts that threaten to tear between this reality and the next and holding certain doom at bay. All that is left of the Emperor is a consciousness divorced from the material world, a mind incapable of ordinary communication with his billions of devoted servants. The Emperor has given all that he is so that the Imperium that he founded might continue. And so it has. While it has diverged greatly from his original plans, the Imperium endures."

 

Instead of the details about mankind's psychic evolution we only have the more nebulous threat of dark forces, but it is still essentially the same story.

 

HH1: Betrayal does not really explain how vital the Emperor is in the grand scheme of things, but it leaves no doubt that ten thousand years ago mankind was on the brink of extinction, had not the Emperor arisen and reunited first Earth and then the galaxy (p. 13+).

 

 

Edit: This is from the 2013 'Visions of Heresy':

 

"The Emperor sits on his throne on Earth and dreams of the future. He has single-handedly created the most awesome military force ever known. His genius mapped the genes and artifice of the Primarchs and their Space Marine progeny. His brilliant mind conceived the Grand Plan: the marrying of the great Empires of Terra and Mars and their Great Crusade to rescue mankind from the thrall of aliens and warp-beasts. It was the Emperor who helped realise the full potential of the Navigators and enabled humanity to travel vast distances through the warp without peril. But his work is not finished and now he dreams his dreams and his vast intellect calculates the destiny of mankind. Time is against him. His precognitive powers are fading; the pressure to maintain the galaxy-wide signal of the Astronomican grows daily; the future has become clouded and dark. He is aware that others like him are aborning, but weaker than he, less able to fend off the seductive embrace of the Warp and the unknown horrors within.

 

It is upon these emerging psykers that the Emperor has focused his attention. Now is the time for him to order the fabrication of the Psy-Engines and Occullum Test Stations, the devices that will search out the inert psyker genes withon the populace. Emerging and latent psykers can thence be trained and purified, protected from the dangers of the warp and the malignant entities therein. Mankind's destiny is a fragile thing and only the Emperor can guide it well and safely forward."

- The Horus Heresy - Visions of Heresy - Book One, p. 10

 

So, really, we are right back to the original lore about the Emperor safely guiding mankind's evolution.

[ZebraM]

Angron was set on a path of destruction, without Horus' manipulation it's unclear where this would of lead him.

[HeritorA]

Guys - Angron bitching is totally understandable. Angron was predestined to become Khorne lapdog. Which was probably shown to the Emperor at Moloch, then he went to the Warp for advice. 

 

The one emo, with zero reason to cry and rage - is Mortarion.

Being angry on your father for saving you from the Bugs (Overlords)? Really? Not giving him a chance to plunge the scythe in the overlords bettle backs himself? 

[mc warhammer]

And even then, he was told to kneel for a few minutes and stop doing what he'd been doing. There's no arguing that the shame was immense, but it was hardly decimation of the Legion or imprisonment of the primarch, as others suffered.

oh. which legion was decimated then? II or XI?

on the whole, i have no issue with any of the emperor's douche moves. he was a douche, not a 21st model dad.