Heavy Weapon squads: making the most out of the kit

[awilden]

Hey all, I'm new to guard, and was looking as a few boxes/kits (like the new 'Start Collecting' box), and wanted to know what the deal was with the Cadian heavy weapons teams, for example just using what's on the sprue, could you make more than 1 team without magnetising them? and if not, what would be the optimal number (and sort) of bitz to get off ebay?

 

I would assume that given you can make any of the heavy weapons, you get all the weapons and the legs/bodies/heads/(maybe)arms are what you need to get since they most likely only pack enough to get 2 troops.

 

What are some experiences you have had with making the most out of the kit? I was looking at getting maybe the 'Start Collecting' box, and then getting some cheap ebay deals to get enough troops to make an allied detachment (to pair with my Blood Angels).

 

Thanks.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The box comes with the bits to make 3 heavy weapons teams of the following:

Missile Launchers

Autocannons

Heavy Bolters

Mortars

Lascannons

 

Now, according to the instructions, you put two dudes to a base, one gunner and one loader. It only comes with 3 tripods, and 3 bipods, the tripods are for Heavy bolters, lascannons and autocannons, while the bipods are for mortars and missile launchers.

 

I used the missile launchers on standing cadians from a standard shock trooper box to sub into my Infantry/veteran squads. I also made 3 tripod guns and 3 mortars, using the crouching dudes, as I intend to get a regular cadian box and make the loader for my teams. They work great for now, and out of each box you can make 6 heavy weapons.

 

I like heavy bolters, autocannons, and mortars, because they are less affected by the BS3 of standard guardsmen, but if you intend to use veteran teams you can use missile launchers and lascannons fairly effectively.

[shandwen]

What he said (perfect advice).

[Goonbandito]

Just be aware that the Heavy Weapons Team box only makes 1 model, while the Heavy Weapons Squad box makes 3 models - the HWS box just has 3 of the HWT sprues in it.  The new 'start collecting' box just has a single HWT in it.

 

However, each HWT sprue can effectively make either a Lascannon, Autocannon or Heavy Bolter AND either a Missile Launcher or Mortar - there's enough bits for both; you'll just need to find another 60mm base.  Actually, the Missile Launcher doesn't really need the bipod, so you could potentially make 3 separate teams from one HWT box as long as you had the extra bases.  In fact, the Lascannon, Autocannon and Heavy Bolter fit rather snugly into the Tripod anyway, so you probably don't even need to glue it in making it easy to swap between them.  The only sticking point will be the blast shield thing, since its a separate piece which is common to all 3 weapons and you only get 1.  A creative use of a magnet might solve that, or even just a dab of blu-tac to hold it in place or something.

 

As for the two guardsmen on each base - you get 2 kneeling legs so just use a regular guardsman as the 2nd guy to stretch the gunners over two bases.

 

In terms of effectiveness of the weapons, the Heavy Bolter and Mortar are below par (you get plenty of Heavy Bolters on vehicles already and a single Mortar isn't going to do much.  Also a Heavy Weapons Squad of Mortar's, ie 3 of them, is only 5pts cheaper than a Wyvern and way way worse).  If you're putting HWT in Platoon Infantry/Heavy Weapon Squads, I'd say go with Autocannons.  If you're putting them in Veteran or Company Command Squads, go with Lascannons/Missile Launchers.

[elmo]

As Ulrik said but you can either buy extra tripods from a 3rd party company (Anvil industry used to sell them) or you can use scenery such as sandbags as a tripod replacement but you will need extra troops and bases to make it work. Only use the kneeling model as the gunner and standing models from the infantry box as the loader. Both of the missile team and mortar team can be standing. There are some examples in my 711th fluff thread - link in my signature.

[awilden]

Thank you all for the replies, i'll definitely look into getting a few extra standing bodies, bases and maybe a tripod and mount/blast shields, also good to know the difference with team and squad, i guess i should have read more closely, but it makes sense, will just need to make the most out of the 1 team and try bulk it out into a full squad, or just buy a few more individual team kits and then extra bodies/bases for them also to get some variations in weapons.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Another thing to remember, and this is purely organizational in terms of a Guard army, Heavy weapon teams can be taken in Infantry Squads, Command Squads and Veteran Squads. However, heavy weapon squads may only be taken as part of a platoon. Heavy Weapon Squads are 3 heavy weapons teams, as said before.

 

Unless you play Death Korps of Krieg, in which you have Heavy Weapons Platoons as heavy support choices. The heavy weapons platoon is 1 or more heavy weapons squads. Death Korps lacks access to the Missile Launcher for some reason though. I figured having some context might help you out as you build your contingent of guardsmen.

 

You mentioned that you pay Blood Angels, and guard can pair well with them. I'm here to help, as I'm sure more than a few others are as well, as you try to decide on how to build your allied forces.

[WarriorFish]

Mortars can use the bipod support - missile launcher doesn't need it. Then it's just down to the tripod for the others so with use of standing legs from other kits and bases you could make 9 HWTs from a single HWS box if you wanted to stretch that far :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Indeed, as I said I put the missile launchers on standing guys from the standard box, for sinking into my Infantry/veteran squads.

 

I have made 9 HWT from a single box, minus the loaders. The way I did my Missile launchers, is like the old school missile launcher teams, with a standard infantry base. now I intend to make some 50mm scenic bases for my small base HWT's to fit in so they look appropriate, and game legal and whatnot. My Mortars are all on terminator bases while my tripod weapons are on the 50mm bases.

[Terminus]

You just need autocannons for BS3 stuff, and lascannons for BS4. All the other weapon options are pretty much a waste of time.

[WarriorFish]

I still feel a bit annoyed about the toe stepping on mortars but it could be worse. They could be heavy bolters...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You just need autocannons for BS3 stuff, and lascannons for BS4. All the other weapon options are pretty much a waste of time.

 

I disagree with your assertion about other weapons. Mortars are actually pretty useful for some inexpensive artillery and heavy bolters are pretty useful for covering the mortars. I mean sure if you're going for a fully min/maxed list, then autocannons and lascannons are all you'd take, but not everyone plays that way.

[steellegionnaire85]

My missile launchers have taken down more flyers with and without flak than my hydra. Never underestimate your weapons platforms.

[Akrim]

In practice I agree with Terminus, I only ever outfit my squads with ACs or LCs. MLs arent a bad option, though I find the extra shots with a AC to be more effective.

 

Unfortunately when you consider Mortars, they just can't compare with a Wyvern for the same cost as a Mortar HWS, same for HBs.

They had their use in 5th when outflanking was all the rage and you could deny flank with them but now HWS just aren't a good points investment, too much S6+ ignores cover out there.

[Terminus]

 

You just need autocannons for BS3 stuff, and lascannons for BS4. All the other weapon options are pretty much a waste of time.

 

I disagree with your assertion about other weapons. Mortars are actually pretty useful for some inexpensive artillery and heavy bolters are pretty useful for covering the mortars. I mean sure if you're going for a fully min/maxed list, then autocannons and lascannons are all you'd take, but not everyone plays that way.

 

It's not even a serious min-maxing thing. Three mortars or a Wyvern? Six heavy bolter teams or a Punisher with three heavy bolters?

 

My missile launchers have taken down more flyers with and without flak than my hydra. Never underestimate your weapons platforms.

Comments like this make you lose all credibility. You compare a crappy option to another crappy option, and add a hefty dose of placebo.

 

A single Hydra costs 70 points and will average a single glance/pen against AV12 before jinking. It takes six missile launchers with flak missiles to average the same result (which is 240 points), or with snap firing krak missiles it takes twelve missile launchers (which is 360 points).  If it's the penetrating hits and rolls on damage table you value, lascannons do it much better.  If you want to glance stuff to death, autocannons are equal to missile launchers against AV13 and get increasingly better against lighter vehicles.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Not to mention that

 

 

 

You just need autocannons for BS3 stuff, and lascannons for BS4. All the other weapon options are pretty much a waste of time.

 

I disagree with your assertion about other weapons. Mortars are actually pretty useful for some inexpensive artillery and heavy bolters are pretty useful for covering the mortars. I mean sure if you're going for a fully min/maxed list, then autocannons and lascannons are all you'd take, but not everyone plays that way.

 

It's not even a serious min-maxing thing. Three mortars or a Wyvern? Six heavy bolter teams or a Punisher with three heavy bolters?

But it is. Because you throw out options like the Wyvern vs mortars or the Punisher vs 2 heavy bolter teams. Now I'll agree that the Wyvern example is valid as it does the same job only better. However, not everyone wants to devote a Heavy support slot to a Wyvern. Or the Wyvern lost out to a leman russ or a manticore or whatever, but they have a platoon and can take some mortars. The Wyvern is good but not always an option.

 

As for the Punisher, well, yes it puts out more shots, But I want that punisher out killing my opponent's infantry, whereas I want my heavy bolter teams covering my mortars or covering my autocannon squads from infantry threats if they get near my back line. Also those six heavy bolters can fire on 2 different targets, can the punisher do that?

 

So just because you don't see a use, don't assume that someone else can't use them effectively in a way you hadn't thought of. And when they do, don't dismiss them.

 

 

My missile launchers have taken down more flyers with and without flak than my hydra. Never underestimate your weapons platforms.

Comments like this make you lose all credibility. You compare a crappy option to another crappy option, and add a hefty dose of placebo.

 

A single Hydra costs 70 points and will average a single glance/pen against AV12 before jinking. It takes six missile launchers with flak missiles to average the same result (which is 240 points), or with snap firing krak missiles it takes twelve missile launchers (which is 360 points).  If it's the penetrating hits and rolls on damage table you value, lascannons do it much better.  If you want to glance stuff to death, autocannons are equal to missile launchers against AV13 and get increasingly better against lighter vehicles.

 

 

He has good luck with his missile launchers, and if you pair them with the ignores cover order from a CCS you can get around that jink. Sure it takes a lot of stuff working together to pull it off, but it works. Put a flakk missile launcher in a CCS and stick it next to a quad gun, and issue fire on my target to the unit, and watch flyers cry.

[CyderPirate]

Don't forget that the HWT are in a different force org slot. Wyverns, Punishers etc are in that crowded and coveted Heavy slot, HWTs fit in our lovely flexible Troops section. 

 

As Ulrik pointed out, there's also a whole load of synergy you can get with infantry that isn't possible with the tanks.

[Terminus]

"Covering my infantry" is gibberish. We aren't talking real life where machine-gun nests are used to anchor battle lines. This is a game. A poorly balanced game. And within the confines of this unbalanced GAME, heavy bolters are garbage. They aren't covering your infantry, they are your infantry, except easier to kill, unable to move, and prone to flee at the first casualty, while not killing much of anything.

 

The missile launcher stuff is even sillier. "I have good luck and use generic orders." Those things apply to everything. Unless you're really saying launchers just roll better, in which case you do need either to stop using loaded dice with your launchers, or put down the crack pipe.

 

Listen, I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game. If you like the models, fine. If you like just being different, fine. If you are a tactical genius and have to use weaker options to give your friends a chance, fine. If you mainly face hordes of Orks or Tyranids, fine. More power to you. May your life be littered with hot-Rollin heavy bolters.

 

If we are just talking effectiveness, though, you need to put your misplaced sentimentality to the side, right along with those heavy bolters and missile launchers. Heavy weapon teams already have serious issues with their combined profile, let's not aggravate the situation by giving them a terrible gun too.

[elmo]

Gents.

 

Stay on topic and keep the conversation civil. The OP requested information on how best to do the model build.

 

All opinions are equally valid and if they happen to work for you then good.

There is no need to turn this away from a polite discussion into something ugly.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

"Covering my infantry" is gibberish. We aren't talking real life where machine-gun nests are used to anchor battle lines. This is a game. A poorly balanced game. And within the confines of this unbalanced GAME, heavy bolters are garbage. They aren't covering your infantry, they are your infantry, except easier to kill, unable to move, and prone to flee at the first casualty, while not killing much of anything.

I said covering my mortars, since dropping a barrage template within 12 inches of your dudes is silly. You are absolutely right about it being a game, and yes at this time it does have some rather crap balance. I don't find that heavy bolters are garbage, but then I'm usually facing lots of T3/T4 models and light vehicles, where a heavy bolter with it's 3 S5/AP4 shots are pretty useful. I park my HWS in cover so they generally have a better cover than their armor. I also know that they are my infantry, and one of my troops choices, and that I can park them on an objective in my back line and use them for something useful too.

 

The missile launcher stuff is even sillier. "I have good luck and use generic orders." Those things apply to everything. Unless you're really saying launchers just roll better, in which case you do need either to stop using loaded dice with your launchers, or put down the crack pipe.

I was offering an opinion on how to use them. I'm not saying anything about missile launchers in general. You offered up that flakk missiles are crap, and the hydra is crap, but offered nothing saying what a possible solution for anti-air might be. If you can't offer a solution, don't criticize, just keep your mouth shut. Yes, having good luck and using generic orders does indeed apply to everything, but putting units together in combination to take advantage of those things can make a world of difference. Also, contrary to your assertion, I neither use loaded dice with my launchers, or anything for that matter, nor do I smoke crack (thus meaning I have no use for a crack pipe). At this point you're just being a horse's ass.

 

 

Listen, I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game. If you like the models, fine. If you like just being different, fine. If you are a tactical genius and have to use weaker options to give your friends a chance, fine. If you mainly face hordes of Orks or Tyranids, fine. More power to you. May your life be littered with hot-Rollin heavy bolters.

 

Thanks for your support.

 

 

If we are just talking effectiveness, though, you need to put your misplaced sentimentality to the side, right along with those heavy bolters and missile launchers. Heavy weapon teams already have serious issues with their combined profile, let's not aggravate the situation by giving them a terrible gun too.

Here's where our opinions differ, you say that heavy bolters and missile launchers are crap, and that they should be thrown away. I disagree, maybe for you sure, but I've had different experiences. Now, I don't always take heavy bolters, or even always take heavy weapons teams, they're just a tool in the tool box, there to be used when you see a use for them. Honestly We have better options for taking lascannons, the vendetta springs to mind, it has 3 of them and twin linked making it effective even when snap firing. We have better options for fielding all of the weapons the HWS can take, it's just a question of how many points do we want to spend, and where do we want to spend them.

 

Now, I've been playing Airmobile infantry lists, particularly Elysians, which is why I've come to like the Mortars, Heavy Bolters, and Missile Launchers, because Elysians don't get Lascannons and autocanons. Nor do they really have any artillery. I've had to make do, and that's fine, I made up for the inability to throw out huge templates and kill lots of stuff in one go with high strength weapons, by getting in close an

d drowning everything in forced saves.

 

I have 3 autocannons, and they find a home in my veteran squads and CCS, where their BS4 gunners can make the most of the shots.

 

Gents.

 

Stay on topic and keep the conversation civil. The OP requested information on how best to do the model build.

 

All opinions are equally valid and if they happen to work for you then good.

There is no need to turn this away from a polite discussion into something ugly.

You bet. I just said my final word on the matter. Didn't mean to derail the thread, but I just didn't feel that the OP was getting a good answer. "Only take Autocannons and Lascannons because everything else is crap" doesn't help the OP make the most out of the kit. It's a valid opinion, sure, and it has something to it, but it's not the only answer, and it's closed minded and unhelpful.

 

By all means Awilden, do with the kit as you want. I'm just offering you opinions so you can choose what you think is best for your army. Your HWS are just tools, and you gotta pick the right one for the job, a hammer doesn't fix every single problem, sometimes you need to use a screwdriver.

[Terminus]

Any left-over weapons you can always use as bits to make other guns. A tripod is not hard to sculpt or make out of plasticard, or you can get 3rd party stuff like Curious Construct's gun carriages: http://curiousconstructs.theslowcentury.com/ocart/index.php?route=product/product&path=73&product_id=174

[walpurgisnacht]

Great topic and great info! I haven't been assembling the HWT kit I have because of this very reason. This ape WILL probably be glueing forever! :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Also, if you find that you don't want to use some of the weapon options, they can be used for kitbashing and converting. Say you only wanted to build mortar teams and heavy bolters, you'd have a bunch of lascanons and autocannons leftover, which could be put to use in conversions, lascannons for say converting a valkyrie to a vendetta, or chimeras to storm chimeras (the ones with autocannons). I have a few autocanons leftover and a few heavy bolters and 6 lascannons (because I played Elysians for a while, and they don't get autocannons and lascannons).

 

The HWS box is also good for rucksacks, which if you want to model light infantry you'll need those bits (light infantry being defined in the modern sense). It is also a source of other random scenery or stowage bits.

[Master Antaeus]

If you want maximum bang for your buck and want to make max heavy weapon squads, you have some work ahead of you.  Go with me on this:

 

1 Heavy weapon team box comes with

1 ea: lascannon, missile launcher, mortar, autocannon, heavy bolter

1 ea: tripod, bipod

 

So build whatever heavy weapon you want to look the best, then build a standing mortar and missile launcher as stated above

 

Then get 2 extra bases and 4 cadians, you might need the pintle-gunner arms from a vehicle, these should be easy to obtain.

 

Lay these cadians prone with the weapons resting on rubble or sandbags on the bases, sprinkle ammo boxes and bits to make them look suitably desperate.

 

Out of one heavy weapon team sprue, some bits and hard work, you can make:

 

1 lascannon

1 missile launcher

1 mortar

1 autocannon

1 heavy bolter

 

Happy shooting!

[steellegionnaire85]

Also,

 

If not stated about if you magnetize the tripod and the heavy bolter, autocannon, and lascannon. You can now have one base that fills three different roles. And two extra bases let's you build both the mortar team and the missile launcher team. I used the magnetization on my steel legion models. It's a little different but same idea. I had to buy heavy weapon squad boxes for the gun platforms and the metal models to make this work.