[HH1.0] Black Shields Tactica

[Terminus]

Hmm the rules as written may well point to this, but chymaera automata doesn't seem like the intent or make much narrative sense. Chymaera are messed up Astartes, so to transfer that bonus to automata seems really TFGish.

[Flint13]

Narratives beyond the entire Dark Mechanicum?

 

Chymerae are indeed jacked up, experimental Astartes. How much easier are automata and cyborgs to experiment on?

[1ncarnadine]

Also, keep in mind that every Black Shields Wrought by War benefit comes with a pretty equivalent drawback.

 

Like if you want to give heavy chainblade Thallaxii +1S/T for S8 attacks, they get reduced to I1, can't sweep, and lose 1" on their run/charge. 

 

 

Hmm the rules as written may well point to this, but chymaera automata doesn't seem like the intent or make much narrative sense. Chymaera are messed up Astartes, so to transfer that bonus to automata seems really TFGish.

 

I'm not so sure. The Black Shields rules are for representing just about anything, but one of the things that the +1S/T is definitely meant to be able to reflect are the Keys of Hel forces, resurrected by forbidden lore from the dark age of technology. Automata have a living component and can in fact be killed... so it would make sense that they can also be restored beyond that death by stuff like the Keys, at a price.

 

The other ones, I don't know. +1WS/BS but -2Ld reflecting black shields overclocking their automata beyond proscribed levels? And the 3rd Rage/Fleet Chymeriae resembles the forbidden crap Scoria does to his automata, so maybe some marines that have been messed genetically with would go ahead and mess with any automata they got ahold of so they could keep up or suit their demeanor. My point is that this isn't hard to justify narratively.

Edited July 28, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Terminus]

There is little you can do genetically to automata, maybe the Thallaxi cohorts. Calling the silica animus "living components" is stretching the definition quite a bit.

 

Thallax already couldn't sweep and initiatives below 4 are largely irrelevant. So it's raw bonus. T8 Castellax feels gamey as heck. But okay, I guess.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Terminus

[1ncarnadine]

There is little you can do genetically to automata, maybe the Thallaxi cohorts. Calling the silica animus "living components" is stretching the definition quite a bit.

 

Thallax already couldn't sweep and initiatives below 4 are largely irrelevant. So it's raw bonus. T8 Castellax feels gamey as heck. But okay, I guess.

 

Again, p.75 Retribution, there's literally a reanimated automata. "The catalogue of damage listed within the accompanying data-burst and visually depicted on the automata would indeed seem to indicate that the unit should have been incapable of any independent action, with damage to large segments of its neural cortex." I'm pretty positive the Keys of Hel are forbidden because it's about replacing the majority of your brain with a for-realsies computer, which may or may not have to actually be located in your skull. 

 

There are so many other ways to justify it: automata desperately modded with unpredictable xenos tech, unstable traitor rapid-inductees who've turned to infusing their automata with poorly understood dark powers, etc etc etc. Don't know what else to say on RAI if anyone is still unconvinced. I think that covers my piece to say.

 

And gamey? In a force barred from Allies, rites of war, & limited to one consul? That means max 1 unit outside maybe a Praevian's unit. Was I missing the memo on Black Shields Chymeriae being a really competitive army before now, that this would actually change much? It just looks like a neat bonus to me.

 

Forgot Thallax no-sweep though, that's fair. I also noticed the +1WS/BS vs -2Ld would be a straight buff to automata, so also potentially mean. Hard on the rest of your force though.

Edited July 28, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Brother Aiwass]

Narratives beyond the entire Dark Mechanicum?

 

Chymerae are indeed jacked up, experimental Astartes. How much easier are automata and cyborgs to experiment on?

Because, they are robots? Even with them having MC profile which is just a (bad) game mechanism. They are made of metal and cannot be gene-altered?

[Plaguecaster]

Ok normal automata that are Taken as part of cortex controller may not be affected sure but any that are taken with a Praevian should be since they gain legion astartes black shields and all wrought by war rules (including Chymeriae) affect legion astartes black shields so it's not that hard to justify it especially since all other legions can affect their automata with their legion rule shenanigans. Sure we don't have rites etc but the wrought by war traits are pretty much our legion rules even though we are not a legion

[Slips]

So, really, only a single squad of automata per blackshields army due to the consul limitatio?

 

T8 castellax is mean, sure, but hardly broken just a bit harder to kill.

 

And like Teuts said: no LA:BS, no Chymiriae

Edited July 28, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Flint13]

^^I don't think Wrought by War doesn't require LA:BS. It just says "may choose one of the following special rules to apply to their entire detachment." Or is that all rolled into the same pile of rules?

 

 

Narratives beyond the entire Dark Mechanicum?

Chymerae are indeed jacked up, experimental Astartes. How much easier are automata and cyborgs to experiment on?

 

Because, they are robots? Even with them having MC profile which is just a (bad) game mechanism. They are made of metal and cannot be gene-altered?

Obviously, robots don't have genetic material. Which is why I didn't mention it anywhere in my post?

 

Robots are like Legos. They are way easier to fiddle around with and modify than living creatures.

 

LetsYouDown just made with a few good narrative suggestions in the post directly above yours.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Flint13

[Slips]

Checked the book.

 

Wrought by war is under "Blackshield Special Rules" which is below LA:Blackshields sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Terminus]

Ok normal automata that are Taken as part of cortex controller may not be affected sure but any that are taken with a Praevian should be since they gain legion astartes black shields and all wrought by war rules (including Chymeriae) affect legion astartes black shields so it's not that hard to justify it especially since all other legions can affect their automata with their legion rule shenanigans. Sure we don't have rites etc but the wrought by war traits are pretty much our legion rules even though we are not a legion

This I would be okay, I guess, just as a one-off unit. But really, if anyone does it to build a big Castellax T8 deathstar, you should be warned ahead of time and be  allowed to bring template D weapons.

 

And as has been pointed out, the actual rules don't seem to support this.

 

Legions Astartes (Blackshields)

The following alternative Legiones Astartes special rule represents them most extreme of the Blackshield Space marine forces...blahblahblah. Regardless, they remain Space marines; genetically engineerd, psycho-indoctrinated warriors with superhuman abilities and minds and souls tempered for war.

* Units with this special rule may always attempt to Regroup normally regardless of casualties.

* Units wll also have the additional special rules and abilities as described below.

 

Blackshield Special Rules immediately follow, the first of which is Wrought by War, which allows you to select a mutation/aberration.

 

So it's kosher for a Pravian-led unit (and makes sense, since these automata have been part of the Legion effectively since their inception, have adapted to their quirks and have been fiddled with by the Legion techmarines for a long time.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Terminus

[Flint13]

^There ya go.

 

One super spiffy posse of geared up Automata that the Praevian has been tinkering with since they showed up in the legion motor pool.

 

Also, T8 Castellax aren't that big of a deal. Iron Hands have had them for awhile now. They die just as easy to sniper bolters, and a single extra point of toughness doesn't invalidate the standard anti-Castellax weapon spread.

[Terminus]

True, but having S7 rending power blades is a significant upgrade in my opinion. Or even the WS/BS skill one, since they are fearless, but the rest of your army would be a bunch of skittish rabbits.

 

And even that is certainly far from the S8 chainblade Ferox Thallax we were discussing earlier.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Terminus

[Flint13]

^ I don't think the Thallax idea would be viable unfortunately.

 

Astartes Thallaxi can't be taken by a Praevian (so no LA:BS) or purchase the Ferrox/Destructor to the best of my knowledge.

[Terminus]

I know, I was just referring to the gestational portion of this idea where Thallax were being floated around.

 

As for the augmentations, the FAQ says to just refer to the Mechanicum book, so Legion-assigned Thallax can take all four options.

[Caillum]

With this is mind, the Praevian might be the strongest choice for the single Blackshield Consul. Would Vorax be worth a shout, or is the 4+ save too much of a handicap?

 

Also, Option 2 (+1 WS, +1 BS, -2Ld) is nifty, as you're going to be Fearless anyway.

[Plaguecaster]

Vorax could be nice especially since they have better WS anyway plus could be made T7 to make them a bit more survivable

[Charlo]

Vorax would be rather cool, especially as they can outflank etc.

 

Getting the rage and fleet would be boss on those.

[1ncarnadine]

Vorax would be rather cool, especially as they can outflank etc.

 

Getting the rage and fleet would be boss on those.

 

They do already have Fleet, though. Or it gives Castellax Fleet but they already have Rage... doomed to be a double-up

 

Oops, also they Scout, no Outflank see below, am idiot. we have not been doing this one right

Edited July 29, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Terminus]

Scout lets you outflank.

[Brother Aiwass]

So, a question about ENDRYD HAAR.

 

He can be taken as a Blackshield HQ but he does not have the LA:BS rule and have the MoTL rule. The question that you have already guessed is, can he and his army (thus a BS one) take a RoW since his LA rule don't forbid this?

[1ncarnadine]

So, a question about ENDRYD HAAR.

 

He can be taken as a Blackshield HQ but he does not have the LA:BS rule and have the MoTL rule. The question that you have already guessed is, can he and his army (thus a BS one) take a RoW since his LA rule don't forbid this?

 

Under the Limited Resources rule: "The army never uses Rites of War."

[Brother Aiwass]

I know, but that is under LA:BS and Haar doesn't have that rule, but LA:WE.

[Plaguecaster]

Well the logical way would be that he loses that rule when he become a black shield' (like how the reaver loses it when becomes Knight errant) since black shields can't benefit from rows so even if you were able to sneak a row in only he would be affected not the rest of the army (so no unlocking veterans or other stuff as troops as it would invalidate them since they won't be black shields so can't be taken since you can't mix and match different armies in BS like Shattered legions) though isn't he an agent of the Emperor so he can't be your primary HQ anyway or something since he counts as an ally so his row won't affect anything even if taken as WE Edited August 8, 2016 by teutonicavenger

[Terminus]

Considering the rule talks about "Blackshield forces" (i.e. your whole army) not being able to take Rites of War, I would take that as pretty unequivocal and not try to wrangle around it. The whole point is that these armies fight in "less regimented but arguably far more flexible manner than a regular Space Marine Legion force."

 

He is an Agent of the Emperor, but those rules are optional and only used if you're using him in a regular Legion army.

 

edit: grammar

Edited August 9, 2016 by Terminus