Warzone: Fenris

[Myunch]

Do they have an invulnerable save? If they don't, I think an early flame template or two would go good with their blue color.

 

'Tis a shame that our termies would have significant issues handling them though =/ Psycannons on deck?

[skarn]

I'd go 2 th&ss, 1 axe and 2 frostclaws per five. That's just crazy resilient and killy for the points.

[skarn]

You're combining multiple, incompatible loadouts here. If they have the 3++, then they have hammers, so the I5 doesn't matter (maybe for sweeps, but not much is going to survive those attacks anyway ).

Are Wulfen good? Yeah, sure. Are they paradigm shifting, game-breakingly twisted? Not by a long shot. You've already highlighted a solid counter from the GK arsenal, psilencers. Will do a number on shield-less Wulfen, and the ones with the 3++ dies as easily to that as a Tac Marine, yet are 50 points a pop.

You can arm them individually. a few th&ss, a few axes or claws gives you the best of both worlds. And saying they die as easy as tacs isn't right - they have 2 wounds and feel no pain.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think an early flame template or two would go good with their blue color.

 

As said, two wounds and FnP.

 

Plus an expensive (lol Same cost as a Paladin...) SS guy or two to soak directional shots on a 3++.  Or whoever you've attached to the Squad can do that as well.

 

 

 

It's things like this that really grind my gears. GW specifically reset the balance at the start of, what was it, 6th edition? So all power weapons were AP3, and anything that was AP2 was unwieldy. Exceptions were rare, relics, or monstrous creatures.

 

Not just that, it's the base S5 and a +3S wepaon.

 

GW: I hear you guys like Force for ID?  But that can be denied.  So here's base S8 to ID all those T4 mobs. TYTY.

 

So a 55 point Paladin with 2W and a 2+ save.  Or a 38 point Wulfen with 3 (plus) S8 IDing AP2 hits on initiative?

 

Hmmm....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Space Wolves players locally are going storm shield+hammer for their Wulfen squads. It's not radically more expensive than the other options, but it fixes their one issue of no invul. They are guaranteed to attract a tonne of attention on the way in, and flanking is a real issue because they just go so fast and deep into enemy lines (no guns). I'm not especially worried about the axe variant, you can snipe it out with some Shunt+gat 'Force' shots. 

 

I just feel depressed whenever I look at Wulfen and then look at our Paladin entry. It's like some sick joke. 

[Gentlemanloser]

And their Hammernators are S10...

 

No need to activate a Psychic Power, and have that open to Deny / Culexes or some wierd Tournament FAQ that means it's the only buff that unit can use.

 

Edit: I'd have some Axe dudes, just to leaverage the "lol extra round of attacks when you kill me, and not the Hammernator that hasn't gone yet" ability.

 

I think mix and matching will be the better performing option, rather than pure Hammers.

 

Edit2: although, if it's a hammernator face off, then the Wulfen would still get the "HAHA EXTRA ATTACK ROUND!!" anyway.

 

My god that ability is obnoxious.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No need to activate a Psychic Power, and have that open to Deny / Culexes or some wierd Tournament FAQ that means it's the only buff that unit can use.

 

I think I'm the only one who even owns the Assassins around my area. No one else takes them. But yeah, we don't play ITC FAQ because it's bonkers. 'Hey guys, lets ruin any psychic army that relies on its powers to be strong. But none of this affects psychic Deathstars or formations that ignore half the psychic rules anyway. Great job!'. 

Edit: I'd have some Axe dudes, just to leaverage the "lol extra round of attacks when you kill me, and not the Hammernator that hasn't gone yet" ability.

 

I think mix and matching will be the better performing option, rather than pure Hammers.

 

Edit2: although, if it's a hammernator face off, then the Wulfen would still get the "HAHA EXTRA ATTACK ROUND!!" anyway.

 

My god that ability is obnoxious.

 

Yeah I remember reading that last special rule and thinking 'wow so even if you get rid of them, they still trade'. Its so stupid. You have to kill them at range, melee is just always a losing proposition. 

[Kolvin]

Yeah obviously you mix and match with them. One or two wulfen with weapons at initiative and the rest with hammers + shields to tank the wounds. 

Psysilencers are our only real answer to that and I don't actually think we can level enough shots at them to be efficient. Wulfen are going to hurt Grey Knights in a whole new way. 
 

Good thing I have some new allies that should be able to deal with these monsters. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

You're combining multiple, incompatible loadouts here. If they have the 3++, then they have hammers, so the I5 doesn't matter (maybe for sweeps, but not much is going to survive those attacks anyway ).

Are Wulfen good? Yeah, sure. Are they paradigm shifting, game-breakingly twisted? Not by a long shot. You've already highlighted a solid counter from the GK arsenal, psilencers. Will do a number on shield-less Wulfen, and the ones with the 3++ dies as easily to that as a Tac Marine, yet are 50 points a pop.

You can arm them individually. a few th&ss, a few axes or claws gives you the best of both worlds. And saying they die as easy as tacs isn't right - they have 2 wounds and feel no pain.

Not with force active, which is what I said. Instant Death negates both the 2W and FnP, meaning that vs Force psilencer Wulfen are just T4 with a 3+ save, therefore identical to a Tactical Marine.

Also, I disagree with combo loadouts. Simply put, without the 3++ they're too flimsy vs shooting. Just like with TWC, I do not advocate only a couple of shields to 'tank' with, as it can be undone very quickly with a couple of duff rolls or some unfortunate positioning.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Simply put, without the 3++ they're too flimsy vs shooting.

 

Really?

 

With a 4+ / FnP?  That's too fragile?  If they were GEQ then sure (with T3).  But they are MEQ (better than Scouts due to FnP), with 2 wounds base.

 

They *only* have a 4+ save.  Sure.  Standard Terminators only have a 2+ save, and that's too fragile these days.  Plus TDA costs more (Even our Discounted TDA - prior to upgrades), and don't have the second wound.

 

Wulfen durability is fine.  Better than most, really.

 

And they are fast enough to avoid most shooting anyway.  With their run and charge with rerolls.  That can also still deploy in Wolves Fast Pods, or their own flying transports.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Not with force active, which is what I said. Instant Death negates both the 2W and FnP, meaning that vs Force psilencer Wulfen are just T4 with a 3+ save, therefore identical to a Tactical Marine.

 

Yeah I agree. Gatling psilencers with 'Force' really hurt Wulfen, and unlike the useless psycannon, if they fail a safe they get splattered with no FNP. We already try and use gat to hose down TWC, its even better in this case because you're wounding on 4+ instead of 5+. 

 

I have to agree that its storm shields or go home. Maybe against us, the 2W and 4+/5+ FNP is gonna tank a lot. But Wulfen have to run the gauntlet of Tau and Eldar, and in those matchups T4 doesn't get to either have multiple wounds or FNP, they will straight up ignore it most of the time on their key units. Storm shield is your only saving grace. 

[frostbite]

 

Simply put, without the 3++ they're too flimsy vs shooting.

 

Really?

 

With a 4+ / FnP?  That's too fragile?  If they were GEQ then sure (with T3).  But they are MEQ (better than Scouts due to FnP), with 2 wounds base.

 

They *only* have a 4+ save.  Sure.  Standard Terminators only have a 2+ save, and that's too fragile these days.  Plus TDA costs more (Even our Discounted TDA - prior to upgrades), and don't have the second wound.

 

Wulfen durability is fine.  Better than most, really.

 

And they are fast enough to avoid most shooting anyway.  With their run and charge with rerolls.  That can also still deploy in Wolves Fast Pods, or their own flying transports.

 

4+ and FNP is hardly tough. Without the shields Wulfen are Heavy Bolter fodder.

[Gentlemanloser]

Who uses H Bolters these days?

 

And with 2W base, it's fine.  For 30 points, doubly so.

[Trevak Dal]

Psycannons and incinerators punk their armor forcing them to have guardsman/daemon saves.  They have CSM Possessed points cost, before upgrades (which are surprisingly reasonable), 6 meltabombs for a guy, 30 for a squad of five furries.  And before they can get to yiffing, they need to cross the gap.  Gonna be a shame when they're eating all those stormbolter, psychic power, psycannon and incinerator shots.

 

My friend who plays space wolves is super excited about them...frankly I'm not all that impressed, because against my Tau, he'll never get into combat, and against my Greyknights he's gonna be eating a Super SUPRIIIIIIIIIISE out of the psylencer shots, and my Vindicare and cuelexus will do the good work they always do.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm sure the Move + Run + Reroll charge will let them see combat. ;)

[Prot]

Again I don't think the Wulfen are the cats meow. It's that table that has some real ally abuse potential.

 

Still I swear and stand by my psilencer dread and....vortex!

[frostbite]

 

Who uses H Bolters these days?

 

And with 2W base, it's fine.  For 30 points, doubly so.

 

That kinda feeds my argument. HB's aren't used much because most armies have better options. And if an HB will go through Wulfen with ease, you can bet Autocannon, grav or whatever else will without trouble..

[Gentlemanloser]

Grav? Wound on 4+ rather than the 2+ of facing TDA/Paladin?

Their FnP and 2W will still serve them.

Of course ID of any sort will ruin their day. Just like Paladin, the inbuilt weakness is they can't get a good Invulnerable save.

Oh...

Seriously, for 30 points, with a 4+/FnP save they are *almost* as survivable as normal Marines. And around twice the cost. Making them *very* comparable.

Then you add their wealth of special rules, and the insane CC weapon options they get.

Heck even for 50 points with TH/SS they are *still* cheaper than Paladin. And cheaper.

Edit: Did I mention cheaper than Paladin?

It's that table that has some real ally abuse potential.

Doesn't that only work on Faction: Space Wolf Units?

I've not looked at it to be honest, are we getting back into the NSF territory of rules headaches when you add a SW IC to another unit and can't figure out if the uni is effected by the Wulfen table?

Thanks GW. Robust rules. lol. Would it *really* kill you to hire some actual playtesters?

[frostbite]

Grav? Wound on 4+ rather than the 2+ of facing TDA/Paladin?

Their FnP and 2W will still serve them.

Of course ID of any sort will ruin their day. Just like Paladin, the inbuilt weakness is they can't get a good Invulnerable save.

Oh...

Seriously, for 30 points, with a 4+/FnP save they are *almost* as survivable as normal Marines. And around twice the cost. Making them *very* comparable.

Then you add their wealth of special rules, and the insane CC weapon options they get.

Heck even for 50 points with TH/SS they are *still* cheaper than Paladin. And cheaper.

Edit: Did I mention cheaper than Paladin?

I was never trying to argue that Wulfen aren't good. Simply that without the TH/SS combo, they are very vulnerable to shooting. If you buy them either the axes or the claws, they still clock in at around the 40pt mark, which is a considerable chunk of change for something with carapace armour.

[Gentlemanloser]

38 with the Axe isn't it?  (Which if I'm honest is my preferred weapon, as it's hella OP...)

 

With 2 wounds, it makes them just cheaper than two of our Strikes.

 

Faster, a little more durable, and able to explode *anything* in Melee (S8, AP2, on Initiative, with a second set of attacks if you kill one and the potential to get many more attacks if you roll a 6...) really makes them, well, obnoxious.

 

It's like the old 4th edition Harlequins.  Couldn't stop them reaching you, couldn't beat them in CC and they just consolidated into the next unit.

 

At least you have a chance shooting Wulfen.

 

But simply (even if it's just compared to us) they are too good for their cost.  Either that, or it's a blatant sign at just how out of date and badly designed we are.

 

I always thought Assault Centurion were an overlooked OP menace.  And Wulfen seem to be built in their vein.

 

I'm not trying to deflate the enjoyment SW players (or any Imperial player...) has been given with this new option.  But it's just a blatant poke in the eye for any lingering semblance of game balance (sure that died a long time ago, but I keep dreaming).

 

Enjoy the Wulfen SW guys and girls.  I'm just gonna drown my balance sorrows (and power level of my army) with an ale or two.

[Kolvin]

I'm not terribly worried about them to tell you the truth. Yes Wulfen will eat almost anything they get their claws on, but they are fairly vulnerable to shooting.

 

We're still a fair shooty army. Not great but we should be able to deal with these reasonably well.

[thraxdown]

I'm not trying to deflate the enjoyment SW players (or any Imperial player...) has been given with this new option. But it's just a blatant poke in the eye for any lingering semblance of game balance (sure that died a long time ago, but I keep dreaming).

 

Enjoy the Wulfen SW guys and girls. I'm just gonna drown my balance sorrows (and power level of my army) with an ale or two.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I'm jealous of the wolves as I would love for units like the wulfen and twc for the melee-army I own that shall not be named here. And I'd love for units like our paladins to get as much bang for the buck as the wulfen get.

[Valerian]

So, eight posts into this thread it went from discussing possible Grey Knights updates in the next campaign book to all griping about Wulfen. Maybe I should edit the thread title?

[Prot]

Haha. You must know by now Val all of these threads devolve into this here.

 

I asked in the wolves thread for any info on Ultramarines or grey Knights in the novels or the campaign book but it seems just Stern and not much else.

[skarn]

There is almost no mention of gk other than stern other than that he has pallies with him (3 are mentioned getting pulped by a greater daemon). I thought pallies were usually bodyguards for the GMs, not brocaps.