Carcharodons novel by Robbie McNiven

[DarkChaplain]

Read The Reaping Time last night before going to bed and enjoyed it a lot. Lots of brutal action (which I'm normally a bit tired of), but all serving to showcase the Chapter. I'm liking the direction Robbie's taking them for sure.

[HeritorA]

Read The Reaping Time last night before going to bed and enjoyed it a lot. Lots of brutal action (which I'm normally a bit tired of), but all serving to showcase the Chapter. I'm liking the direction Robbie's taking them for sure.

A nice prequel to the Red Tithe. Glad you enjoyed it

[Kelborn]

So I finally finished it.

 

Rob. . . you did well. :tu:

 

I'm not as experienced in terms of prose and ways of writing, etc. like some Fraters here. All I can say is my very own perspective as a common reader.

 

I enjoyed it A LOT! Yours was the first English book I read without pausing. Even Aaron didn't achieved this. *don't tell him that I still haven't finished the First Heretic although I've started it a year ago :P*

 

The characters were cool and I enjoyed their different povs, most notable did I enjoy Sharr, Kordi and Crull. Talking about Crull...hell, he redeemed himself in such a way that I'm sad about his fate. That little backstab at the end was unexpected and awesome. Overall, you did well with the Night Lords. You held up the tradition set by Aaron and added some new bits like the Black Hand, being a very "young" warband and the resulting consequences of this fact. Hope that we might see more NL actions of yours in the future.

 

The Carcharodons...you've said that their heritage was complicated. Well, we still don't know for sure about it but I'm happy that there were MANY references to the most common theory, namely the terran RG exiles. I'm exited to deep further into their culture. It's very interesting. Vows of silence, sleeping in cryo chambers, meditating amongst their Dreadnaughts, which themselves are kept in ice during transit. All well thought. 

 

The battle scenes were good, no doubts.

The mortal povs in form of Krell and the Arbites were a good addition in order to emphasize with the NLs terror tactics and the Carcharodons monstrous and frightening way of waging war.

 

AND the most important: You held up the grimdarkness of the Reaping Time! I applaud you, sir. Your stories were the most grimdark stuff I've read in years! And I'm loving it! :D

Saving a colony just to harvest it, showing a scout devouring enemies flesh in order to gain intelligence, depicting the Carcharodons as loyal monsters, acting at the very edge of the Imperium without showing themselves, simply glorious! I never had the impression of them being the good guys, just as the lesser evil.

 

There's only one thing I have to criticize but that has nothing to do with you. Most likely, it's just my own impression but when writing about a librarian, everytime I get a bit tired of it. In every scene they are exhausting themselves just to tap deeper into their reserves in the following scene. Don't get me wrong, I'm liking Te Kahurangi. It's just that I got the impression that he was close to fatigue the entire book but still be able to fend off all odds.

 

Besides this little thing that may sound worse than it apparently is, the novel is great! I will recommend 100%!

 

Keep it up! :tu:

[Sandlemad]

Quite enjoyed this. I liked the guarded way it addressed the Carcharodon's origin. No explicit mention of Corax or the Terran elements of the XI legion, just the Shade Lord and the Wandering Ancestors. Use of Raven Guard phrases in new contexts, as several generations of drift would cause. Little hints of practices and gear that could indicate some contact with Night Lords or World Eaters. One or two references to the chapter's genetic being 'complex' or 'mixed'.
 
I also liked the many little ways that the book stepped right up to 'sharky-shark' imagery - wolf guard with wolf claws on a thunderwolf, etc - and stepped back down. Little things like the dreadnoughts seeming at first to be kept partially underwater, giving the wonderful image of the company kneeling in cold water venerating of the elders, but then you realise that this is due to the melting ice of their cryosleep. Or like the predator fin on the company master's helm  The word 'shark' only appears in the book 9 times by my count; it's always 'beast' or 'predator'. The polynesian elements were also applied with a pretty light touch.
 
There's really an interesting chapter culture here beyond the facts of their heritage and shark imagery. The deliberate stilling of bloodlust in favour of the calm of the black void. The explicit rejection of the concept of glory or of acknowledgement by the rest of the imperium. The difference of opinions about if their exile will ever end. Their veneration of the emperor specifically as a light in the darkness. The veterans' tendency to pray alone.

Very cold but by intention, contrasts nicely with the more flamboyant tendencies of the NL.
  
Wasn't too clear on the relationship between Te Kahurangi and Shadraith. They seemed to know each other. 

The Pale Nomad was several generations removed from the heresy and Shadraith claimed to be a heresy-era marine, with memories of the destruction of Nostramo, though Cull privately doubts this... but Te Kahurangi makes a reference to leaving Shadraith somewhere before? Is this suggesting that Te Kahurangi was once a (possibly post-heresy recruit) member of the Night Lords? Or that Shadraith was once a member of the Carcharodons? It's a bit twisted and opaque... which is what I liked about the book as a whole but I can't quite parse this...

 

I should also add that Rannik was one of the best implementations of the 'mortal giving an outsiders view on astartes' trope that I've seen. An interesting and competent character who is nevertheless absolutely out of her depth in the insanely intense type of warfare that both the Carcharodons and the NL embody.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Sandlemad

[Kelborn]

Agreed to all of it.

 

But I believe that they knew each other through Bal'Ghul. He was an adversary of Te Kahurangi two times before Zartak and Shadraith, as Bal'Ghuls "apprentice", learned about him through his ally / master.

 

Te Kahurangi knew of Shadraith because of visions or the chapter had to deal with him in the past.

 

Still, everything's really well connected throughout the story.

[HeritorA]

Agreed to all of it.

 

But I believe that they knew each other through Bal'Ghul. He was an adversary of Te Kahurangi two times before Zartak and Shadraith, as Bal'Ghuls "apprentice", learned about him through his ally / master.

 

Te Kahurangi knew of Shadraith because of visions or the chapter had to deal with him in the past.

 

Still, everything's really well connected throughout the story.

Indeed - what we need now how 'thin' blood Cull will explain to old horses like 'Te Kahurangi', that he didn't care about all that GC, HH, Imperium, Black Crusades or anything else, except his own ego and the deaths he could inflct lol 

[Robster The Lobster]

So you all convinced me to buy this. BL even had free shipping. Perhaps it was fate

[HeritorA]

So you all convinced me to buy this. BL even had free shipping. Perhaps it was fate

Or Iterators job well done lol. Anyway well deserved praises goes solely to Robbie, after all tis his novel 

[Sandlemad]

Another nicely done thing in this was the comparison between Cull and Sharr. 

Both relatively new to their jobs as warband leader/company master, both feeling the pressure. Cull's not a HH-era veteran and Sharr's from the very world they're tithing. But right at the end Cull shows some sort of loyalty to his pre-NL life and kills Shadraith (it's good sense to kill him regardless but that's his stated reason) whereas Sharr doesn't even blink before consigning thousands of people from his birth-world to slavery.

 

Really, in other circumstances Sharr and 3rd company's story would read as much closer to a traditional CSM tale. They're not there to defend the world, they're not their even primarily to kill their opposite-number astartes, it's to grab those resources.

[Mellow]

For a moment I thought Cull had turned loyalist right at the last moment. That would have been fun. I don't know of any other traitors who turned loyalist afterwards.

[Biscuittzz]

Just throwing this up for some discussion: Is it stated that the Carcharodons are awaiting the call to return by the 'Forgotten One' i.e. Corax? If so, and if the Raven Guard Chapter currently know of their existence, is the Master of Shadows possibly able to make amends with them acting as Corax's successor?

 

Unlikely I know, but the general theme of the majority of 1st Founding Legions at this time in the setting is the recalling/ calls of assistance from all their successors for various reasons i.e. BA, DA etc. Didn't the Raven Guard call all successors to aid in the defence of Deliverance from that Ork Waaagh! ?

 

The sharks would probably give em the fingers anyway if called upon. 

[Sandlemad]

"The Emperor. [...] To the Adeptus Astartes, the great primogenitor and mightiest leader mankind would ever know. To the Carcharodon Astra he was Rangu, the Void Father, sire of the Forgotten One. [...] Sharr’s Chapter had left humanity for the emptiness of the Outer Dark when He had still walked among mortals, and they would not return until He did so once again. Only with the coming of the Forgotten One could the Edicts of Exile be overturned, and the Chapter’s eternal crusade in the darkness be brought to an end."

 

That's in the view of Company Master Sharr, so it looks like it's down to the Emperor and/or Corax returning and overturning the terms of their exile. He goes on to note that some in the chapter do not believe that their exile would ever end.

 

Hard to say how much they truly know though, Corax isn't referred to by name, simply that he was the son of the Emperor and they don't explicitly say that the Wandering Ancestors were Terran RG (or a mix of Terran RG and whoever else) so it's definitely myths and legends territory. That said, characters like the chief librarian clearly know more than they say, like when he brings up their 'complex heritage' and doesn't delve beyond that. Something for the next book, so.

Likewise how much the 40k Raven Guard chapter know, beyond having a dusty scroll or something. FW's Massacre says that Corax did not appear to explicitly order them to return during the heresy but maybe 10k years will have softened him.

[RobMac]

So I finally finished it.

 

Rob. . . you did well.

Thanks Kel, I appreciate it!

 

 

I also liked the many little ways that the book stepped right up to 'sharky-shark' imagery - wolf guard with wolf claws on a thunderwolf, etc - and stepped back down. Little things like the dreadnoughts seeming at first to be kept partially underwater, giving the wonderful image of the company kneeling in cold water venerating of the elders, but then you realise that this is due to the melting ice of their cryosleep. Or like the predator fin on the company master's helm  The word 'shark' only appears in the book 9 times by my count; it's always 'beast' or 'predator'. The polynesian elements were also applied with a pretty light touch.

 

There's really an interesting chapter culture here beyond the facts of their heritage and shark imagery. The deliberate stilling of bloodlust in favour of the calm of the black void. The explicit rejection of the concept of glory or of acknowledgement by the rest of the imperium. The difference of opinions about if their exile will ever end. Their veneration of the emperor specifically as a light in the darkness. The veterans' tendency to pray alone.

Very cold but by intention, contrasts nicely with the more flamboyant tendencies of the NL.

Thanks, I was wary of the wolfy-wolf effect, but I still thought there ought to be a little dash of that 40k almost-weird-humour in it, hence things like them "sort of" having scales as a long-term genetic failure, ect. I'm glad it wasn't too on-the-nose (or snout?) though. Regarding the wider exposure to their culture, it was a bit of a juggling act - I wanted to show them off far more than they ever have been before, but I also didn't want to expose their origins, and I didn't want them to become too empathetic. They're a weird mix, almost but not quite anti-heroes. If I've managed to balance all three objectives out I'll be happy indeed.

 

Agreed to all of it.

 

But I believe that they knew each other through Bal'Ghul. He was an adversary of Te Kahurangi two times before Zartak and Shadraith, as Bal'Ghuls "apprentice", learned about him through his ally / master.

 

Te Kahurangi knew of Shadraith because of visions or the chapter had to deal with him in the past.

 

Still, everything's really well connected throughout the story.

Yep, I don't have the page reference to hand, but it's stated that Bah'ghul is the one who knows of Te Kahurangi from before, and he passes his info on to Shadraith. They have a bit of a history which I may get to explore one day.

 

 

So you all convinced me to buy this. BL even had free shipping. Perhaps it was fate

Or Iterators job well done lol. Anyway well deserved praises goes solely to Robbie, after all tis his novel 

 

Can't underestimate the awesome response of the readers such as yourselves though, if it wasn't for this sort of chatter and internet word-of-mouth I think this would have been far less successful than it has been!

 

Another nicely done thing in this was the comparison between Cull and Sharr. 

Both relatively new to their jobs as warband leader/company master, both feeling the pressure. Cull's not a HH-era veteran and Sharr's from the very world they're tithing. But right at the end Cull shows some sort of loyalty to his pre-NL life and kills Shadraith (it's good sense to kill him regardless but that's his stated reason) whereas Sharr doesn't even blink before consigning thousands of people from his birth-world to slavery.

 

Really, in other circumstances Sharr and 3rd company's story would read as much closer to a traditional CSM tale. They're not there to defend the world, they're not their even primarily to kill their opposite-number astartes, it's to grab those resources.

Glad that came off properly too, Sandlemad seems attuned to every reference and literary tweak I tried to put in, haha. Sharr and Cull are juxtaposed at certain points, for example they both have "armoury" scenes near the beginning, and they're shown sparring tactically from afar throughout before they go blade to blade at the end. 

[Kelborn]

You're right. Now that you've mentioned it! *facepalm* haven't noticed that ^^

 

And indeed, Crull and Sharr (both very short names btw, another commonality) are like a mirror of one another with a certain difference: Shart gets over his past. Curious who might have won if Crull hadn't cheated. ;)

That's why I mentioned my thought in The Last Hint thread about mirroring Corsairs and Scars. Could be really cool.

 

Much you have learned, young Padawan. A Knight you have become!

[Mellow]

Basically whenever someone mentions the space sharks I imagine that kid out of Harry Potter that uses that "shark face" spell to swim underwater. That's what I think all these marines look like, lol

[HeritorA]

You're right. Now that you've mentioned it! *facepalm* haven't noticed that ^^

 

And indeed, Crull and Sharr (both very short names btw, another commonality) are like a mirror of one another with a certain difference: Shart gets over his past. Curious who might have won if Crull hadn't cheated.

That's why I mentioned my thought in The Last Hint thread about mirroring Corsairs and Scars. Could be really cool.

 

Much you have learned, young Padawan. A Knight you have become!

True true and true ;) More Cull and add some XXth into the cauldron - and you will have a splendid volatile mix where Robbie ;)

[Randomselect]

I'm excited about this book.

Wondering if i can get away with using Carcharodons as black shields in 30k now it's been stated they were around during the heresy.

 

Anyway, shade Lord Arkhas fal,

 

Arkhas is an anagram of A Shark.

 

Coincidence?

[Mellow]

Sounds fishy to me!

[b1soul]

"The Emperor. [...] To the Adeptus Astartes, the great primogenitor and mightiest leader mankind would ever know. To the Carcharodon Astra he was Rangu, the Void Father, sire of the Forgotten One. [...] Sharr’s Chapter had left humanity for the emptiness of the Outer Dark when He had still walked among mortals, and they would not return until He did so once again. Only with the coming of the Forgotten One could the Edicts of Exile be overturned, and the Chapter’s eternal crusade in the darkness be brought to an end."

 

That's in the view of Company Master Sharr, so it looks like it's down to the Emperor and/or Corax returning and overturning the terms of their exile. He goes on to note that some in the chapter do not believe that their exile would ever end.

 

Hard to say how much they truly know though, Corax isn't referred to by name, simply that he was the son of the Emperor and they don't explicitly say that the Wandering Ancestors were Terran RG (or a mix of Terran RG and whoever else) so it's definitely myths and legends territory. That said, characters like the chief librarian clearly know more than they say, like when he brings up their 'complex heritage' and doesn't delve beyond that. Something for the next book, so.

Likewise how much the 40k Raven Guard chapter know, beyond having a dusty scroll or something. FW's Massacre says that Corax did not appear to explicitly order them to return during the heresy but maybe 10k years will have softened him.

At this point...it's almost certain that the Carchs are at leat partially descended from Terran RG, correct?

 

The "controversy" is whether there are other lineages and if so...what are they, right?

[Sandlemad]

 

Glad that came off properly too, Sandlemad seems attuned to every reference and literary tweak I tried to put in, haha. Sharr and Cull are juxtaposed at certain points, for example they both have "armoury" scenes near the beginning, and they're shown sparring tactically from afar throughout before they go blade to blade at the end. 

 

 

Well, thank you for writing such a good book.  I was a huge fan and collector of the Carcharodons from their first glimpsed appearance in IA9, so it's a joy (and yeah, a relief) to see them handled with such a deft touch. Writing in close third person perspectives about a chapter whose background's whole shtick was their ambiguity and inscrutability must have been a huge challenge.

[HeritorA]

 

 

Glad that came off properly too, Sandlemad seems attuned to every reference and literary tweak I tried to put in, haha. Sharr and Cull are juxtaposed at certain points, for example they both have "armoury" scenes near the beginning, and they're shown sparring tactically from afar throughout before they go blade to blade at the end. 

 

 

Well, thank you for writing such a good book.  I was a huge fan and collector of the Carcharodons from their first glimpsed appearance in IA9, so it's a joy (and yeah, a relief) to see them handled with such a deft touch. Writing in close third person perspectives about a chapter whose background's whole shtick was their ambiguity and inscrutability must have been a huge challenge.

 

I was hoping that Red Tithe would be a prologue into Badab war - their campaign in Tranquility and at Badab Prime was 'hilarious'. Plus that awesome mutual extermination episode with the Executioners :)

[Kelborn]

I can imagine a TBA like series covering the Badab War. Maybe not in 12 (most likely less than that) but something like that. 5 maybe?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I can imagine a TBA like series covering the Badab War. Maybe not in 12 (most likely less than that) but something like that. 5 maybe?

Well, I mean, I like TBA, so I don't want anyone to get me wrong but ... 

Ultimately, TBA was just attacking Ullanor three times until it worked. In terms of events it actually covered, it probably could've been a lot shorter, so I'd actually sort of expect the Badab War to be a similarly sized series.

I'm sort of split on whether I want 5 shorter TBA-esque novels or 5 TBA-esque novels. Could go either way for me at this point.

[Kelborn]

And we would have other cool chapters covered as well: Minotaurs, Raptors and the like.

Also the rising tyrant of Bafab could be of interest and his legion building.

 

Yep, that would be a series I would be interested in! :)

 

Rooooooobbie???? :P

Edited January 9, 2017 by Kelborn

[Mellow]

4-6 novels per story arc would be acceptable providing each story was released at every month

 

Nothing worse than waiting for a new story and having a month to digest a story line is quite useful