Mankind - To Corrupt or Not?

[Kais Klip]

Impassively and objectively; is humanity better off closer to the extremes of the Emperor's vision, the balance of Magnus' or the chaos deep end of Lorgar's?

 

Talking separately in individual terms, and in terms of a collective whole. Which of the three is

 

1) Better off facing the myriad threats of the galaxy's dark?

2) Which one is closer to a perfect meritocracy where the best are functionally immortal and consistently and reliably powerful?

 

I read of Magnus' coven being able to revive dead sorcerers and removing cancers with ease, but I do not see the same being done on Sicarus, so was Lorgar wrong in his quest for unification when man can simply use the warp like it was used on Tizca? The closest Lorgar's bunch come to feats similar in scope is Erebus' and Kor Phaeron's biomancy in regards to themselves, but two out of a whole legion seems rather lacking in quality for all that the novel Aurelian laid out (half lies or not).

 

Would I be correct in assuming that against specific threats, Magnus' empire would crumble to something like the Tyranids, while Lorgar's would be cut off and shattered by the warp blank shenanigans of the Necrons? Is the Emperor's vision truly the best fit for mankind concerning all factors, is Ultramar really the highest example humanity can achieve without risking having its support torn out from underneath itself when either its psychic might or its harmony with the warp is taken away by biological/technological feats?

 

 Who had the better vision for the future of humanity, the Emperor, Magnus or Lorgar? If the latter two, why are they not doing more to pursue it in the 40th millennium? Is biomancy every man's dream, or do the machinations of the Dark Age such as cybernetic resurrection come out as simply more preferable? Or is union with a warp entity result in true paradise? Why didn't lorgar, or even erebus or kor phaeron, become twin flames themselves?

 

Does the Mechanicum/Dark Mechanicum quietly take the prize?

 

Looking to brainstorm who really was objectionably right more powerful, individually speaking and for mankind as a whole.

[Frater Cornelius]

How far do you want to delve into philosophy? It is a passion of mine, but unfortunately it is hard without touching on certain religious and philosophica mantras, which are against the board rules, as far as I am aware.

[Kais Klip]

I'd rather not touch ethics so much as philosophy, but in truth someone like you is exactly who I'm looking to discuss this with. To comply with the board, would you care to consider this in terms of

 

Firstly, personal, individual power, priority being in elongating biological life a la 10,000 year old Erebus and Kor Phaeron (warp/enuncia), Ahriman (biomancy), Blood Angels/Mechanicum (bio and technical knowledge), and secondly in participating and surviving the galaxy as a whole (ie Abaddon, however he managed what he did). We are going with the assumption that a small score of such people are objectively more valuable than a larger score of mortal administratum workers that expire within a generation, provided that they are able to contribute more to an imperium:

 

Secondly, concerning the Emperor's priority if we assume it is the survival of the human race as a species, thus what empire would fare best after the Heresy event, assuming its victory.

 

So the question is if a legion of mortal guardsmen is more preferable to a company of Thousand Sons or a company of Gal Vorbak (assuming these are the apex of unity) in the long term, assuming the guardsmen are replaced by their children if they survive, the thousand sons are resurrected/recruit new astartes, or the gal vorbak what, coalesce back into being upon death. Would I be wrong in assuming the individual should wish to be part of the latter two, while for his minions to be the former due to it's logistical and strategic superiority? That is what the Emperor's case is, no?

[Memento Of Prospero]

Your whole premise on Magnus is that you assumed he was in fully control in harnessing the warp and did not suffer any drawbacks.. He appeared in control. We know how terribly wrong that is with the burning of prospero.

[Kais Klip]

That's what I'm trying to figure out, was Tizca as good as humanity can get, from what I see it's downfall was simply the Imperium, like countless other galactic states.

 

I do recognise Magnus' naiivity and hubris, what I'm trying to figure out is if Tizca on a scale of the Imperium would be better than the Imperium or Lorgar's Warp-Unified Imperium.

 

A follow on question was why didn't Tizca expand into an empire a la Ultramar, and if the answer is a lack of manpower (psykers are rarer), than perhaps as an Imperium it would fall to countless masses of mortal guardsmen who have quantity on their side.

 

Therefore the question becomes is an Imperium superior to an Imperium infused with the warp, whatever that means?

 

Edit: I keep forgetting other options, namely a technochratic Imperium, a la Imperium at the Dark Age of Technology, except we know that it fails, hence Ferrus Manus' Keys of Hel. Would the mechanicum offer a better imperium, and besides the AI, why are the Keys of Hel forbidden in the first place?

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, in my opinion this goes far beyond just looking at power levels. Their approach and the philosophy behind it needs to be considered. I will try without without delving too deep into forbidden topics.

 

In essence, you are asking which one would have had the best chance of unifying mankind, right? As said, individual power does not matter as much beyond the charisma of said person, though it certainly has its relevance. A construct is only as tough as its weakest component, so you can not look at the higher-ups and say he would have a better chance.

 

In terms of their approach, the Emperor falls at the very first hurdle. Cloak and Dagger games are the last thing I would consider when dealing with such a fickle matter as Chaos and massed unification. He himself being an agglamation of souls and essentially being closer to the Warp than most, he should know. Chaos thrives on deceipt, false promises and half truths. What he did is he tasked 20 (or 18, as the case may be) warriors to go out and fight under the nose of an enemy they do not know about. Well, we can see how that turned out.

 

One thing that can be said with certainty is that the Emperor made the biggest blunder and paid most dearly for it.

The second thing I disagree on is his extreme approach. Extremism is never an answer. This has been preached in so many philosophies and eve religions, be it ancient China, India, Greece and partially even europe. You are blinding yourself to the bigger picture and make wrong choices. Assuming an extreme stance either happens due to ignorance or being convinced that you have absolute knowledge. Absolute knowledge is not ours to have, but this is going into a theological direction, which I would love to discuss, but that would be against the rules. As it stands, the Emperor let his arrogance blind him and it backfired. I am sure that that was the product of bad writing or simply an attempt to make it darker or the outcome more ironic. Still, the point stands that extremism is not an answer.

 

Which brings me to Lorgar, the symmetrical opposite of the Emperor. Lorgar's answer to everything is Chaos, which is a massive can of worms, but here we go. He chose the easy path of temptation and that goes against everything I believe in. His decision to accept another higher power because he was not allowed to worship the Emperor tells me that his belief was not as deep as begin with. Yes, the rejection shook him, but that didn't mean it is justified to make a hasty decision like that. The way Chaos works in to exploit tragic events and disorder to sway you and it worked.

 

Then there is Magnus, who one might assume acted rational, but had his own failings. He delved into material that was not his to master. Something that can not be mastered by mere skill or knowledge. One might argue that he also fell into temptation. The power of the universe at his fingertips and his potential to wield it make him go deeper and deeper into a hole that one can not climb out of that easily. He thought he could master it. He thought that he was in control, but that was a product of his thinking and not reality. Sure, the way their society worked was great, up to a point. Lust of knowledge can lead to the classic scenario of knowing too much and that is why it did not work. Sure, it was a good idea with plenty well-meaning, but most bad scenarios happen that way.

 

And why did the latter two fall? Because the Emperor played his cloak and dagger game, which underlines the failing of the Emperor.

 

To answer the question, all three had a good start. The Emperor united through purpose, Lorgar united through belief and Magnus through knowledge. But each of them took an extreme path, oblivious of the other options. In my eyes, the perfect approach would be all through. Give humanity a purpose, hold them together through belief and enlighten them to steel them against their greatest foe.

 

What they all lacked was a balanced view of things.

 

My opinion is that when you are trying to eliminate Chaos, trying to extermiante it completely is close to impossible seeing as you are trying to eliminate something that makes as human. The answer would be to suppress and ultimately weak it to a point of irrelevance. How? Through moderation and balance. Discipline and spiritual development. Chaos is about temptation. Conquer it and you have conquered Chaos.

 

I will stop right here, because now we are entering very slippery ground.

 

But that did not really answer the OP, did it? Because I think the first question of who would be better in holding together mankind is kind of moot next to the picture of Chaos. What was the plan of the Emperor to begin with? Eliminate Chaos through rationality and unbelief. That did not work because that did not master your temptation as a human being. If you were to unite mankind, you would need to hold it together, which goes hand in hand with resisting selfishness and temptation and ultimately, Chaos. All three played right into the hands of Chaos as opposed to tackling their biggest opponent, although only the Emperor did so knowingly, and hence why I belief that managing Chaos needs to be an integral part of holding an empire together.

The Eldar failed and humanity did not do an amazing job either. Both ultimately gave in to lust, anger and selfishness. This is also why Orks work so well. They do not know greed, wrath, pride, lust and so forth.

 

I could ramble on for hours, but you get the idea. I light of Chaos, none of them worked. If you remove Chaos, then all three will have worked to some extend as all three are all a part of the same whole.

[Kais Klip]

But assuming chaos doesn't exist is bouncing around the question. It does exist in the setting, that was the truth Lorgar referred to. His entire point is the souls of all those loyal imperial citizens and astartes are, ultimately, devoured. Speaking in these terms: preventing death and/or preserving the soul, is Lorgar still wrong in embracing the pantheon? The Gal Vorbak seem to check the first box, they kick even Custodian ass, but do they still get devoured when they finally do fall? Is the trick to prevent death a la Kor Phaeron when he sustained himself vs guilliman, and what is the difference between him and a thousand sons sorcerer that can apparently be resurrected by magnus?

 

What I'm saying is; is the promise of chaos ever true, and if it is, why have only Erebus and Kor Phaeron achieved it?

[Azkaellon3]

Id say the worst chaos (dumb pun I know) scenario for humanity would be the Erebus-chaos-for-everyone-free-of-charge scenario. Because in the end humanity wouldn't be the same anymore and probably just destroy itself.

 

From all the good empires we saw so far the best regional (so like one system or at largest a sector) would be Magnus little state of psykers. It seems like a pretty neat place to live in and everybody is content or at least seems to be.

But talking about a bigger empire at around the size of a galactic sector to the whole galaxy the imperium secundus would be the best. That's right not ultramar (or however you want to call it) but the imperium secundus.

 

See ultramar always suffered by being a part of the empire and having to follow its rules, but when sanguinius was made emperor and guilliman ran the state business things looked pretty well.

You had an emperor that was loved by the people, probably even more than the emperor himself plus he shared the same dreams as his father; a united mankind living in prosperity and peace.

You also had a functional social system and it was one big coherent system unlike the actual imperium where you had systems that governed themselves so every planet in the i.s. Was pretty much the same.

 

Of course there also are negative aspects in form of the vigil operati but I feel like in that big of a empire (and it's an empire, so it's a dictatorship) that kind of "control" organ is needed to maintain the greater good, even if that means possibly silencing some people.

 

And if you would have got the access to the webway, it could have been a perfect future. Also to hell with the mechanicum as its to dangerous and if the emperor wouldn't have forbidden the research of certain technology, mankind would be in some big problems again. And they are not human enough, they care more about technology and advancing it than helping mankind.

 

So yeah I think a improved version of the imperium secundus probably would be the best .

[Kais Klip]

Id say the worst chaos (dumb pun I know) scenario for humanity would be the Erebus-chaos-for-everyone-free-of-charge scenario. Because in the end humanity wouldn't be the same anymore and probably just destroy itself.

 

From all the good empires we saw so far the best regional (so like one system or at largest a sector) would be Magnus little state of psykers. It seems like a pretty neat place to live in and everybody is content or at least seems to be.

But talking about a bigger empire at around the size of a galactic sector to the whole galaxy the imperium secundus would be the best. That's right not ultramar (or however you want to call it) but the imperium secundus.

 

See ultramar always suffered by being a part of the empire and having to follow its rules, but when sanguinius was made emperor and guilliman ran the state business things looked pretty well.

You had an emperor that was loved by the people, probably even more than the emperor himself plus he shared the same dreams as his father; a united mankind living in prosperity and peace.

You also had a functional social system and it was one big coherent system unlike the actual imperium where you had systems that governed themselves so every planet in the i.s. Was pretty much the same.

 

Of course there also are negative aspects in form of the vigil operati but I feel like in that big of a empire (and it's an empire, so it's a dictatorship) that kind of "control" organ is needed to maintain the greater good, even if that means possibly silencing some people.

 

And if you would have got the access to the webway, it could have been a perfect future. Also to hell with the mechanicum as its to dangerous and if the emperor wouldn't have forbidden the research of certain technology, mankind would be in some big problems again. And they are not human enough, they care more about technology and advancing it than helping mankind.

 

So yeah I think a improved version of the imperium secundus probably would be the best .

Would there be no way for someone like Kor Phaeron or the Dark Council to unify a chaos soaked empire against a threat like the tyranids? Wouldn't it be, at worst, the same case as with the Disfynction of the High Lords of Terra in m32? Except in this case aren't chaos space marines, dark mechanicum, daemons and a fanatical Imperial Army preferable to vanilla Astartes and Army?

[Frater Cornelius]

Whether Lorgar is wrong embaring the pantheon is a highly subjective question. For him it was right. For me, it was is the greatest sin in the 40k universe. And there is also fluff that support salvation from Chaos. In 40k, you soul will go to the Warp, one way or another. However, where does it go? Talon of Horus gives us the Firetide, where Angels from the Astronomican and the Daemons from the Eye of Terror battle eternally, and the Radiant Worlds, which worlds in the Warp are free of Chaos and basked in the golden light, but not burned by it. This leads me to belief that this is an analogy for heaven.

 

If you consider one of the basic 'laws' of the universe, which is what goes around comes back around, or Karma if you want to use the Indian term, then serving Chaos or the Emperor/Humanity in your life will determine where in the Warp your soul will go.

 

You also need to consider what Chaos does with the souls of mankind. They use it for their own selfish ends, without any benefit for us. They eat of torture them for their own amusement.

 

Consider all that above, then Chaos is the wrong answer. It is easy way. But you need to pay for everything and the easy way comes at the ultimately price. Is that price worth the benefits you get? Only you decide. I do not think it is worth it and I stand by my opinion that Lorgar was in the wrong. Gal Vorbak are the perfect example of taking a shortcut to power and paying dearly for it.

 

As for Chaos unifying? That can not happen. In a world where everyone follows temptation and their own selfish ends, the structure will be ever fluctuating. Look at the Gods themselves, they can not even get along with each other, each trying to undermine the other. Unification would only happen for as long as everyone sees it being fit for them. But when anyone spots an opportunity togain favour and power, everything will crumble.

This is why Chaos is such a pervesion. It is a 'religion' where everyone serves themselves and not the community. And this is why Chaos can not function as a system. For a system to function, there will be instances where you must forget the 'I' for the 'we' to benefit. Chaos is the very antithesis for that.

 

While this may look like the dysfunction of the High Lords, it is fundamentally different. They are not dysfunctional due to selfiness, but due to being part of a machine that is so large, that you simply can not manage it properly. Again, this is partly because of bad writing and their Grimdark-obsession.

But you have to remember one thing. The entire Imperium is more unified that any Chaos group will ever be because of their unified belief in the Emperor. That alone puts the the Imperium on a higher level than Chaos, because regardless of leadership, they have one common thing to fight for.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Well that's just why polytheism is replaced by monotheism. No division when everyone follows the same trail of bread crumbs. 

 

The best scenarion is the Emperor's original plan : Humanity transcends into potent psykers who are shielded from the warp. Kinda like the Tau, who have no warp imprint. This is the only viable way to have humanity strive in a grimdark setting.

 

 

And ultimately, that's the problem. This is grimdark. There is no best case scenario, only lesser of evils ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Well that's just why polytheism is replaced by monotheism. No division when everyone follows the same trail of bread crumbs.

The best scenarion is the Emperor's original plan : Humanity transcends into potent psykers who are shielded from the warp. Kinda like the Tau, who have no warp imprint. This is the only viable way to have humanity strive in a grimdark setting.

And ultimately, that's the problem. This is grimdark. There is no best case scenario, only lesser of evils

The forced Grimdark is indeed a stopper for anything remotely realistic happening. This whole setting is like Murphy's Law made manifest. You may call that good writing, but I do not. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy it though. This is basically a massive execise in irony

Edit: As for the polytheism and monotheism issue, I would disagree about that, but as mentioned, theology is a no-go around here. And that's good, lest I burry this thread with my endless rambling on that topic

[Memento Of Prospero]

Well that's just why polytheism is replaced by monotheism. No division when everyone follows the same trail of bread crumbs.

The best scenarion is the Emperor's original plan : Humanity transcends into potent psykers who are shielded from the warp. Kinda like the Tau, who have no warp imprint. This is the only viable way to have humanity strive in a grimdark setting.

And ultimately, that's the problem. This is grimdark. There is no best case scenario, only lesser of evils

The forced Grimdark is indeed a stopper for anything remotely realistic happening. This whole setting is like Murphy's Law made manifest. You may call that good writing, but I do not. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy it though. This is basically a massive execise in irony

Edit: As for the polytheism and monotheism issue, I would disagree about that, but as mentioned, theology is a no-go around here. And that's good, lest I burry this thread with my endless rambling on that topic

Discussing religion is a no go, but if we talk about the historical phenomenon, I don't see why not. It's observation, not theology.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well that's just why polytheism is replaced by monotheism. No division when everyone follows the same trail of bread crumbs.

The best scenarion is the Emperor's original plan : Humanity transcends into potent psykers who are shielded from the warp. Kinda like the Tau, who have no warp imprint. This is the only viable way to have humanity strive in a grimdark setting.

And ultimately, that's the problem. This is grimdark. There is no best case scenario, only lesser of evils

The forced Grimdark is indeed a stopper for anything remotely realistic happening. This whole setting is like Murphy's Law made manifest. You may call that good writing, but I do not. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy it though. This is basically a massive execise in irony

Edit: As for the polytheism and monotheism issue, I would disagree about that, but as mentioned, theology is a no-go around here. And that's good, lest I burry this thread with my endless rambling on that topic

Discussing religion is a no go, but if we talk about the historical phenomenon, I don't see why not. It's observation, not theology.

But that's the issue. The way I would tackle the topic goes into that direction. When it comes to purely historical phenomenon, then I can say that many Greek writers ike Homer and philosophers did not take the Greek pantheon seriously. They argued about the existence of a higher being a Christian would classify as God, but they agreed that the Greek pantheon was not it.

The thing is that it is borderline impossible, at least for me, to discuss it without bringing up theological theories from across the globe, which I prefer not to tackle it here

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Mankind isn't corrupt. Mostly all lifeforms are corruptable in some way, but none have galaxy spanning powerful Empires. It's no fun possessing an amoeba, but possesing a culture that has giant killer death robots? Awww yiss.

 

Manking is just unfortunate enough to be in the crossfire between Empy & Chaos Godsies.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Mankind isn't corrupt. Mostly all lifeforms are corruptable in some way, but none have galaxy spanning powerful Empires. It's no fun possessing an amoeba, but possesing a culture that has giant killer death robots? Awww yiss.

 

Manking is just unfortunate enough to be in the crossfire between Empy & Chaos Godsies.

 

Just like the Eldar before us, and possible the Old Ones before them.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

Mankind isn't corrupt. Mostly all lifeforms are corruptable in some way, but none have galaxy spanning powerful Empires. It's no fun possessing an amoeba, but possesing a culture that has giant killer death robots? Awww yiss.

 

Manking is just unfortunate enough to be in the crossfire between Empy & Chaos Godsies.

 

Just like the Eldar before us, and possible the Old Ones before them.

 

 

Exactly, Chaos is just a bully/bad influence. It picks the biggest kid on the kid on the block/galactic existence and eggs him on to throw a rock through his parent's french windows.

[Kais Klip]

So what would the specific disadvantages be in accepting this bad influence, that is embracing union, becoming possessed like the gal vorbak, apart from hearing a voice in your head that occasionally takes over when it needs to save your bacon in a fight? Anything affecting the sentience inside would simply handicap it and leave you with a perfectly functional astartes/human just like you began with. Trying to see the downside here, and specifically why we have yet to come across a chaplain that is possessed himself but does not have the stats of one (Ardu, Erebus, Kor Phaeron and any general diabolist that can't go toe to toe with a Gal Vorbak).

 

Basically, who don't Erebus and Kor Phaeron become possessed themselves?

[Marshal Rohr]

Because the Gal Vorbak are a special kind of possessed. The ones that came after didn't maintain the level of symbiosis Argel Tal had.

[Kais Klip]

Because they were mass produced and thus faulty, or because the gods decided to do a one off and show an unrealistic "concept model" that would never reach the (dramatically reduced) masses?

[Memento Of Prospero]

The possessed make a personal sacrifice in order to better serve the legion. Erebus and Kor Phaeron know the true cost and do not wish to pay it.

[Kais Klip]

Fluff wise, how is Dark Channeling represented? Is it different from the blessings of Farseers and other psychers? Trying to figure out if it is literally streamlined ongoing blessings and a sign of things to come with the XV legion, or if it is a random amolgation of zealotry, whatever +1 S can stand for, and full on mini-gal vorbak which for some reason lacks characteristic changes (a la diabolists).

[Marshal Rohr]

Chaos is always the wrong choice.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Chaos is always the wrong choice.

 

If the imperium is wrong I don't want to be right!

[Arthanor]

Maybe the current eldar way is the answer? They have knowledge of Chaos, the warp and psychic powers but they have the restraint to keep even their highly obsessive/sensitive/whatever souls from falling to Chaos and the technology to prevent their souls from fueling Chaos.

Their only problem is that before getting there, they followed a different way and ed up big time so they are now too few to properly dominate the galaxy.

In fact, it seems rather similar to Tizca, where people were devoted to one task, accruing knowledge and pursuing enlightenment. The only problem is that on Tizca they had no knowledge of the true nature of the warp to temper their way and were fooled by the warp into thinking all was right until Chaos decided to make it all go wrong. The eldars, knowing about Chaos, can follow their paths while knowing what to be wary of instead of gleefully prancing through the forest ignorant that there are such things as wolves.

If the eldars had managed to reach out to humans and the Emperor hadn't be such a xenophobe, it might have worked. But they went for Fulgrim.. Of all the primarchs unlikely to take advice from anyone (even before starting to get corrupted by the blade/slaanesh), Fulgrim would be pretty close to the top. But I guess outwardly/initially, his quest for perfection might have included trying to preserve yourself instead of giving in and becoming something else.