Mankind - To Corrupt or Not?

[ronin_cse]

Interesting topic although it seems to be going in directions that don't seen to be touching on the original question, although since the OP is one of the ones taking it in other directions I can't really complain ;).

 

I guess I read the initial question as which choice gives humanity the best chance of surviving forever while ignoring any questions of morals or ethics or what is right.

 

Of course the answer would be a blend of all three. Chaos obviously offers power beyond normal means and so would be a valuable ally in protecting humanity from the dangers of the universe so totally ignoring it would be foolish.  However Chaos is obviously chaotic and thus eventually any attempts at organization will fall apart, which is of course a major reason why big attacks by Chaos don't end up succeeding and why in the end Lorgar's vision isn't ideal. Trying to control it doesn't work either because again it's Chaos, eventually it will slip what ever tenuous grasp holds it.

 

The best option would probably be if the Emperor had succeeded in actually becoming a god (weather this was his real goal or not) and joining the pantheon. This would have possibly allowed humanity enough power to become real "allies" with Chaos and use the power of the warp without becoming totally controlled by it. I believe something like this would be possible since really humanity and Chaos have similar ultimate goals that oppose the other major threats to the galaxy.

 

Also as Arthanor above me mentions the current Eldar way seems to be working fairly well and if they could have worked with the Imperium another choice be have been an option.

[Kais Klip]

See ronin you call organisation for chaos an inherently a doomed prospect, yet the archpriest legion of the whole thing remains the most organised entity in the Traitor's roster, together with the Iron Warriors who also use the warp as a resource instead of letting it use them like the four patron legions and their respective sponsors.

 

 

My original question was in two parts. Put simply, the first of which was which system has greater vertical mobility for the individual, being ruled by the word bearers or being ruled by the emperor? At what cost does this mobility come, when death of both body and soul is guaranteed in both systems? What reason would an individual who puts himself above ethics not choose to become corrupt? Physical appearance?

 

And the second part of the question: whether it is better for the individual to be under Word Bearer rule or Imperial rule, which demographic is more preferable to rule and wield against the terrors of the night? Would you rather lead an Imperial army, which fails sometimes to infighting such as in the case of The Beast in M32, or would you lead a Chaos-infused one, who's only disadvantage I see is perhaps loosing its specialness vs necrons or nids, at which point you are still left with a formidable conventional fighting force, aka everything the loyalists have. 

[Marshal Rohr]

A chaos infused fighting force is weaker than a standard imperial one, no matter how many spikes they have growing out of their nipples. Chaos followers are inherently treason cowards and lack military discipline. Look at literally every representation of chaos. No solid chain of command, no organization, no logistical train.

 

Until GW pulls their head out and makes chaos better the lore doesn't support them being a threat.

[Memento Of Prospero]

See ronin you call organisation for chaos an inherently a doomed prospect, yet the archpriest legion of the whole thing remains the most organised entity in the Traitor's roster, together with the Iron Warriors who also use the warp as a resource instead of letting it use them like the four patron legions and their respective sponsors.

 

 

 

How so? The Word Bearers are all over the place and It's leadership has more agendas going on than Alpharius and Omegon. Kor Phaeron, Erebus and Lorgar and pulling in different directions, plus all the random Chapter master plotlines. I don't know how the word bearers will make it to Terra as a cohesive force at this point.

 

As for Iron Warriors, give them time, they have just begun their descent ;)

[Kais Klip]

I was actually referring to their fully devolved 40k forms Wolf_Pack, but you do have a point either way regarding the XVIIth.

 

As for military organisation and supply train, I assumed that was BL's lack of thoroughness, and that some of the Imperial Armour books covered that in detail, examples of which I am asking for if anyone has them by hand. Or are all chaos uprisings a disappointment to Guilliman.

 

Speaking of which, short of a coin toss in who won control over the orbital defence grid and thus nuked the other to death, is there an explanation given towards Calth being a Word Bearer failure? Looking for something like a failure to break even in the profit of war after the word bearer's chose occult significance over strategic benefit in their actions on the surface. Or in other words, would the Alpha Legion, or any legion for that matter, have done better at Calth against the Ultramarines? Which one would have done the best?

[Marshal Rohr]

Lorgar chastises Erevus about Calth being a failure in Betrayer.

[Kais Klip]

I'm aware of this, but as reluctant as I am to kick this horse, I have to raise a point.

 

Would no military historian treat Calth as a victory for the Word Bearers? The Ruinstorm was created, killing loyalist strategic mobility within the area and their information on without, a rising star of a world was completely shattered and made into a shell infested with loyalists, while the Ultramarines were murdered on site at a 2:1 ratio or more (half of the 200,000 strong legion were sent, no?).

 

Last time it took EIGHT legions to murder THREE, achieving closer to murdering two, and that was with Horus in command. EDIT: More examples, the tactician himself, Lionel, managed a complete surprise attack and only killed a quarter of a legion. Might Lorgar be pulling a Pert and expecting a bit too much?

 

Expecting a Primarch kill from unsupported Astartes forces seems a bit too much for me, and while Polux's victory at Phall against an enemy primarch is hailed, that of the Word Bearer's against Guilliman himself fails to be. I do not see how Calth could even be as bad as a Pyrrhic victory for the Word Bearers. If it was repeated again and again, the Ultramarines would have been shattered, no?

 

As I challenged earlier, even a surprise attack by the alpha legion/raven guard would not have gone better against a legion so predisposed to adapting on the spot and recovering from surprise.

[noigrim]

The heresy is too damn high

[Legatus]

Who had the better vision for the future of humanity, the Emperor, Magnus or Lorgar?

 

Ultimate outcome had they won and determined the future of mankind:

 

Lorgar --> Everyone is devoured by warp creatures

 

Magnus --> Everyone is devoured by warp creatures

 

Emperor --> Everyone is NOT devoured by warp creatures

 

 

But I am not just throwing out a personal interpretation. That was how the Emperor's mission was framed a long time ago:

 

"(...) over ten thousand years ago he began his struggle, for he knew that humanity was on the verge of a revolution, a genetic revolution that would create a new psychically aware race, a race of which he was the first and most powerful. Without his guidance he realised the emerging race of psychics would fall prey to the dangers he had already faced, the perils of entities that fed upon psychic energy, or who used that energy for their horrific purposes. (...)

It is ironic that this creature, whose will extends to over a million worlds, is now unable to leave the life-giving machinery of his imperial thone, unable to lift as much as a shriveled finger or twitch a shrunken eye. (...)

The Emperor understands the dangers that face his race, and has assumed the role which seems pre-ordained for him, that of its guardian. Perhaps he is a freak, or perhaps nature created him as the protector of her metamorphosis. Either way, the Emperor is now the custodian of his race, and he alone bears the knowledge of its fate. (...)

Left uncontrolled, the emerging race of psychic humans would become the unwitting vehicle of humanity's destruction. For there are many foul aliens which not only feed upon the life-force of other races, but which use that life-force as a means of opening portals in warp space, infiltrating populated planets via the poorly protected minds of inexperienced psykers. The Master of Mankind knows that to protect his race he must survive, must live forever if necessary, or until such time as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face. If thousands must endure pain and death for his sake, how considerable must be the agony of a creature whose body is all but destroyed, whose mind is encased inside a rotting shell and whose every thought is enslaved to the task of serving his race."

- 1st Edition Rulebook, p. 135+138

 

Before anyone complains about "outdated sources", this is how it is described in the 2013 'Visions of Heresy':

 

"It was the Emperor who helped realise the full potenatial of the Navigators and enabled humanity to travel vast distances through the warp without peril. (...) He is aware that others like him are aborning, but weaker than he, less able to fend off the seductive embrace of the Warp and the unknown horrors within.

It is upon these emerging psykers that the Emperor focused his attention. Now is the time for him to order the fabrication of the Psy-Engines and Occulum Test Stations, the device that will search out the inert psyker genes within the populace. Emerging psykers can thence be trained and purified, protected from the dangers of the warp and the malignant entities therein. Mankind's destiny is a fragile thing and only the Emperor can guide it well and safely forward."

- Visions of Heresy (2013), p. 10

 

 

I don't think we have to debate what would have happened if Lorgar had determined the course for the future and had instated galaxy wide Chaos worship. But maybe Magnus would have found a way to keep the dark forces in check, you say? Well, the lore has allways been sort of clear in that Magnus was never really as much in control as he thought he was.

 

 

 

"By the time he approached physical maturity, Magnus had grown into a giant in the psychic and intellectual, as well as the physical, sense. Then came the day that Magnus opened his cyclopean eye upon the Empyrean, and instead of channeling power from the Warp, Magnus instead saw into it, and life on Prospero was changed forever.

The instant his single enormeous eye saw into that place of power, Magnus the Red went from student to absolute master.

The Warp is no more a lifeless place than the physical world, and the arrival of so prodigious a psychic presence as Magnus did not go unnoticed. More than one consciousness sensed the new life across the Immaterium and more than one recognized him for who he was.

More than one came to find him.

(...)

Seeing into the depths of the Warp from his sanctum upon Prospero, Magnus beheld a vision of Horus' pledge to Chaos ipon the fields of the feral world of davin. Horus' treachery was revealed, every detail made known with total clarity. (...) Alone in the galaxy, more clearly than even Horus himself, Magnus was given to understand the events at hand. He saw it all and understood each consequence and every role, except his own.

(...)

The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burgning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the actions described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticized; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see?

(...)

Everything that mattered to him was burning to the ground, and Magnus turned to what he knew best to save it. Magnus was swetp upon the currents of the Warp, and there he found the knowledge he sought. His sorcerers, his beloved Legion, all the precious knowledge they had accumulated within the silver spires of the City of Light could still be saved. He discovered the solution looking back at him, as if it had always been there, watching his way, and subtly changing him to its own purpose. He beheld sorcery incarnate, promising knowledge, power and salvation. But this time it was on its own terms. Magnus was no longer the master of the way as he had believed himself, but a servant to it. It is said that even then Magnus hesitated, but as he thought back to his city, his works, his knowledge and his brethren, reduced to fiery ruin at the command of his own father, he changed his allegiance for all time.

And in that instant, the City of Light, its silver towers and vast libraries and its Legion of Thousand Sons vanished from the face of Prospero, and the Imperium, forever. When Magnus and his Thousand Sons were seen again, it was above Istvaan V, fighting alongside Horus. Magnus had become a Daemon Prince of the Chaos god Tzeentch, Lord of Sorcery, and Changer of Ways. The battle for their souls and their fate now so complete, it leaves one wondering whether it was ever truly in doubt.

(...)

For the Primarch Magnus, knowledge was power. He believed there was no discipline his intellect could not master, no secret he could not unlock and make serve his purpose. For the Thousand Sons, knowledge was salvation, the means to controlling the psychic legacy of their Primarch's gene. Every book was sacred, every writing worthy of study, every document a resource to be drained. The ultimate knowledge was sorcery, the way to final enlightenment, the key to the universe. (...) When Magnus's reach for intellectual mastery exceeded his grasp, Tzeentch was waiting for him, and the Space Marines who believed as he did could do nothing but fall with him."

- Index Astartes Thousand Sons

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm aware of this, but as reluctant as I am to kick this horse, I have to raise a point.

 

Would no military historian treat Calth as a victory for the Word Bearers? The Ruinstorm was created, killing loyalist strategic mobility within the area and their information on without, a rising star of a world was completely shattered and made into a shell infested with loyalists, while the Ultramarines were murdered on site at a 2:1 ratio or more (half of the 200,000 strong legion were sent, no?).

 

Last time it took EIGHT legions to murder THREE, achieving closer to murdering two, and that was with Horus in command. EDIT: More examples, the tactician himself, Lionel, managed a complete surprise attack and only killed a quarter of a legion. Might Lorgar be pulling a Pert and expecting a bit too much?

 

Expecting a Primarch kill from unsupported Astartes forces seems a bit too much for me, and while Polux's victory at Phall against an enemy primarch is hailed, that of the Word Bearer's against Guilliman himself fails to be. I do not see how Calth could even be as bad as a Pyrrhic victory for the Word Bearers. If it was repeated again and again, the Ultramarines would have been shattered, no?

 

As I challenged earlier, even a surprise attack by the alpha legion/raven guard would not have gone better against a legion so predisposed to adapting on the spot and recovering from surprise.

A military historian doesn't have the word of god direct line on whether Calth was a success or not. We as readers do. So in universe, it may be a win. Here on the BnC we know it's not.

[Kais Klip]

I was talking about us, and apologies for being dense, but would you lay it out for me on why "we know it's not", given my points above.

[Void Knight]

 

My original question was in two parts. Put simply, the first of which was which system has greater vertical mobility for the individual, being ruled by the word bearers or being ruled by the emperor? At what cost does this mobility come, when death of both body and soul is guaranteed in both systems? What reason would an individual who puts himself above ethics not choose to become corrupt? Physical appearance?

 

And the second part of the question: whether it is better for the individual to be under Word Bearer rule or Imperial rule, which demographic is more preferable to rule and wield against the terrors of the night? Would you rather lead an Imperial army, which fails sometimes to infighting such as in the case of The Beast in M32, or would you lead a Chaos-infused one, who's only disadvantage I see is perhaps loosing its specialness vs necrons or nids, at which point you are still left with a formidable conventional fighting force, aka everything the loyalists have. 

For the first part I would have to say that Chaos has more vertical mobility for the individual.  Through worship, deceit, or just plain survival, a slave could become his master's master because Chaos promotes individuals.  But this comes with the risk that you will be replaced as well.  The Imperium is rigid, it is predictable, it is order.  The only way someone rises in rank is if their superior dies.  Though with constant war, there is the potential for people to rise up in rank, but only in the military.  The average Joe in the Imperium is going to work in a manufactorum for his entire life, where the trench shovels he's producing have infinitely more worth than he does.

 

On the second part, it's difficult to say when one side is the "terrors of the night."  I would still say Chaos is the better side as it has been a permanent part of the universe since the Old Ones created the psychic races.  The Warp is a dimension unto itself and as we saw with Warhammer Fantasy: The End Times, the forces of Chaos can survive the destruction of a universe.

[Marshal Rohr]

I was talking about us, and apologies for being dense, but would you lay it out for me on why "we know it's not", given my points above.

You'll have to find ADBs posts from when Betrayer came out. He laid out why it wasn't black and white.

[Dizzyeye01]

Something to consider is what the individual would be told: for the imperium, you would be told about the God-Emperor (which is a blatant lie that we the readers know); with lorgars' version you are told about the Chaos gods and the power which they can give to you (a half truth since we aren't told about the cost until we've already made the choice); with Magnus we are told what is known about the known galaxy. What marks Magnus out as being different is that (at least to me) is that before he falls to Chaos not only is he giving his people the truth (as in telling them what he knows) and giving them some leeway in what they want to achieve. So for me, in terms of philosophy Magnus' imperium wins.

 

In terms of survivability, both lorgar and the Emperor have similar empires; both have a figure(s) on which they draw inspiration and hope from (the Chaos gods/Emperor), both hold warriors faithful to the cause, both even draw on their own powers (a mixture of pure faith and power from the warp), the big difference I see between the two is how leadership works. Kill Lorgar and at the very least someone will take his place and continue his work. Kill the Emperor and you kill all of the imperiums' faith. Along with this, if needed, Chaos warbands will band together to defend what is theirs (just look at any attempts to get into the Eye of Terror); with the Imperium you can be lucky if it's leaders don't stick knives in each other. Just look at Inquisitors, they are so varied in beliefs' that no matter what you belief in, somebody else completely disagrees and be willing to wage war.

 

I'll write part two up once I've grabbed some sleep.

[Azkaellon3]

Kill the Emperor and you kill all of the imperiums' faith. Along with this, if needed, Chaos warbands will band together to defend what is theirs (just look at any attempts to get into the Eye of Terror); with the Imperium you can be lucky if it's leaders don't stick knives in each other. Just look at Inquisitors, they are so varied in beliefs' that no matter what you belief in, somebody else completely disagrees and be willing to wage war.

 

 

Maybe your right but that's 40k and that imperium is in no way related to the imperium the emperor had in mind when he started his crusade.

 

And about the emperor telling lies, we don't know. What happened on molech could have happened the way the chaos gods tell or maybe it's just a halftruth again.

Because considering the emperor travelled to molech some point early before he began to unite terra, then how would he have been able to defeat the void dragon in the middle age? So he must have always been super powerful, and possibly his travel to molech could have been just trying to rob the four buddies from their powers.

 

 

And the problem about Magnus is his arrogance. He believes he mastered the warp (or at least to a certain stable degree) and never told anyone about his early dealing with the creatures of the warp and what he did to stop the fleshchange.

 

The result of a finished great crusade with all goals achieved could have been a paradise for mankind, if they were willing to sacrifice some personal freedom so that the whole could function correctly.

 

And if I understood the op correct, the question was what would be best for mankind.

 

And chaos doesn't care about mankind; for them it's all just a game. Just like in the endtimes (think of it what you want, the gods are the same and so are their goals) chaos CAN unite. But I stress can because as soon as they achieve their end goal they don't care anymore and everything goes sour. They don't want anything good for their pawns and they never will. Hell they even talk of Horus as a sacrificial lamb, that just shows they never intend for humanity to live in peace.

 

So in conclusion yes the emperor has flaws, but he's the only God that could ever stand up to the four buddies. The eldar gods were a whole pantheon and they got annihilated by them, whereas the emperor is feared by them and considered a vital threat.

 

And about the eldar way, we don't know if that would work in a grand society. Personally I doubt it because eldar are the best team players (not even among their own kind) and they are arrogance and arrogance is a path to the dark side. Ah wrong universe... But they walked the path before and I pretty sure without any entity to protect them eventually they will walk it again if they would have an empire like they used to.

[Memento Of Prospero]

The goals of Calth for the Wordbearers were many, and almost all of them either failed or had been mitigated successes in the end. But in the end, it was still a victory, as the ruinstorm took off and decimated Calth.

 

At the same time, Lorgar did not lose anything he was not ready to chance away. He sent to calth those who were too unstable for his legion to thrive.

 

Chastising Erebus had a lot more to do with a "I told you so, kneel you impetuous whelp" than anything else. He expected the outcome.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

A chaos infused fighting force is weaker than a standard imperial one, no matter how many spikes they have growing out of their nipples. Chaos followers are inherently treason cowards and lack military discipline. Look at literally every representation of chaos. No solid chain of command, no organization, no logistical train.

Until GW pulls their head out and makes chaos better the lore doesn't support them being a threat.

Different? Yes. Weaker? No. In terms of discipline on the field of battle Chaos Marines and Loyal Marines are no different. The difference comes in at the decision making level. A space marine wouldn't bat an eye about choosing a Last Stand over a withdrawal while a Chaos Marine would withdraw every time. But in the middle of the battle, neither will break and flee. For Chaos the strength of their logistics is very much correlated to how favorable they are with the Gods. If the Gods favor them they have a literally unlimited supply of Daemons, munitions, and hardware that can be generated from the Warp. On the other hand if they have no favor they are on their own. in regards to Organization 40K novels don't go into depth about the effects of organization on the battlefield so debating organization is debating a nullity. Lack of chain of command is balanced out by the Chaos Marines having a better meritocracy than the Loyalists, sure you may have one commander one day and another the next, but he will be far more qualified than an Imperial noble who called in favor to become Lord General.

-

 

I'm aware of this, but as reluctant as I am to kick this horse, I have to raise a point.

Would no military historian treat Calth as a victory for the Word Bearers? The Ruinstorm was created, killing loyalist strategic mobility within the area and their information on without, a rising star of a world was completely shattered and made into a shell infested with loyalists, while the Ultramarines were murdered on site at a 2:1 ratio or more (half of the 200,000 strong legion were sent, no?).Last time it took EIGHT legions to murder THREE, achieving closer to murdering two, and that was with Horus in command. EDIT: More examples, the tactician himself, Lionel, managed a complete surprise attack and only killed a quarter of a legion. Might Lorgar be pulling a Pert and expecting a bit too much?

Expecting a Primarch kill from unsupported Astartes forces seems a bit too much for me, and while Polux's victory at Phall against an enemy primarch is hailed, that of the Word Bearer's against Guilliman himself fails to be. I do not see how Calth could even be as bad as a Pyrrhic victory for the Word Bearers. If it was repeated again and again, the Ultramarines would have been shattered, no?

As I challenged earlier, even a surprise attack by the alpha legion/raven guard would not have gone better against a legion so predisposed to adapting on the spot and recovering from surprise.

A military historian doesn't have the word of god direct line on whether Calth was a success or not. We as readers do. So in universe, it may be a win. Here on the BnC we know it's not.

The United States Military won every single major engagement of the Vietnam War handily yet they still lost the war. While the Word Bearers "lost" at a tactical level all but 2 of their strategic goals (killing/corrupting Guilliman total annihilation of the Ultramarines via supernova) were achieved. If the Word Bearers expended <50,000 men (50,000 at the battle with a significant portion escaping) to break the back of the most powerful single fighting force in the Eastern Imperium (they reduced the Ultramarines from 250,000 to 90,000 not even including the Shadow Crusade casaulties) that is a win at the strategic level.

-

-

-

Back on topic, I don't think their are 3 philosophies regarding the Emperor, Magnus, and Lorgar only 2. In my mind the Emperor and Magnus were going after the same end result of an enlightened, orderly and peaceful society that used warp power freely without being controlled by daemons. the difference is that Magnus did not appreciate the cunning and power of the Chaos Gods and because of that his perfect society was disrupted. The Emperor was also aiming for the same perfect society but 40,000 years of life experience has taught him that he needed to get rid of Chaos first in order to make his society last. In this regard they believe the same philosophy but Magnus was heedless of the dangers of building that society before it was ready.

Lorgar's philosophy, imo, is Social Darwinism taken to the absolute extreme. Each class serves and higher class and is serviced by a class lower than them with the Gods being at the top. But every person has the opportunity to advance between classes. In regards to which of the two philosophies are better if comes down to whether or not the Chaos Gods can be destroyed or expelled from the Universe. If the Emperor is capable of killing the Gods than his ideal society of fully aware psychic beings can become a reality. However, if the Gods can't die than The Emperor's plan can never be implemented permanently and Lorgar's plan is better.

[Legatus]

The Emperor's plan was not to kill the Chaod Gods. His plan was to protect mankind via strict control and focusing of their psychic abilities until such time that their psychic potential was evolved to a stage where they were strong enough to resist the influence of Chaos by themselves.

 

 

---

 

Along with this, if needed, Chaos warbands will band together to defend what is theirs (just look at any attempts to get into the Eye of Terror); with the Imperium you can be lucky if it's leaders don't stick knives in each other. Just look at Inquisitors, they are so varied in beliefs' that no matter what you belief in, somebody else completely disagrees and be willing to wage war.

 

Er... the different Chaos factions have been tearing each other apart within the eye of Terror for the past ten thousand years. One of the reasons for why the Imperium has not fallen to Chaos or Orks yet is that neither of these enemies can present a united front. Inevitably infighting will ruin their offenses against the Imperium, if they get a large enough force together to pose a real threat in the first place. With Chaos, every few hundred years or so a warlorg with enough sway will be able to unite enough warbands behind him to start a Black Crusade.

 

 

In terms of survivability, both lorgar and the Emperor have similar empires;

 

Like most traitor Legions, the Word Bearers have claimed a world within the Eye of Terror as their own to use as a base of operations.

 

 

---

 

Regarding Calth:

 

Original lore (IA WB, Collected Visions): The Word Bearers attack the Ultramarines with the explicite aim to destroy them. The Ultramarines manage to push them back. A complete failure for the Word Bearers.

 

'Know No Fear': The new aim of the Word Bearers is to start the ruinstorm and cripple the Ultramarines fleet, which they both achieve. Destroying the Ultramarines completely or killing Guilliman are "nice-to-have" bonus objectives, which are not achieved. Thus Calth is now a success for the Word Bearers.

 

'Betrayer': Lorgar is super disappointed that the Ultramarines were not wiped out and Guilliman was not killed, despite Erebus' significant 'surprise' advantage. (Somehow that goal apparently was not communicated to Erebus, who was quite satisfied with what had been achieved in 'Know No Fear'. But then "lack of communication" seems to be the underlying theme for the new Word Bearers lore, as in "no worship, guys".) At the same time we are informed that the force attacking Calth consisted of expendable throwaway units, and Lorgar himself was simultaneously leading the bulk of the Legion against a completely different target within Ultramar. So despite Lorgar's tirade I find it difficult to see Calth as a failure.

 

'HH5: Tempest': The Word Bearers sent ~50.000 Word Bearers (plus human and daemon support) against ~190.000 Ultramarines (plus human support) and managed to kill ~120.000 of them in the initial battle, while losing only 20.000 men themselves. I cannot see this as anything other than a success for the Word Bearers.

 

In 'Betrayer', A D-B is essentially making a half-hearted attempt at backpeddling and relativising Dan Abnett's complete rewrite of Calth from 'Know No Fear'. Other than what had been stated in 'Know No Fear', A D-B's Lorgar informs us that the Word Bearers really were meant to destroy the Ultramarines completely. "half-hearted" because at the same time we are now also informed that the Word Bearers sent to Calth were units meant to be weeded out, and that at the same time the main body of the Legion under command of Lorgar himself were pursuing an entirely different mission somewhere else. So apparently attacking the Ultramarines at Calth wasn't really top priority.

[SpecialIssue]

 

Back on topic, I don't think their are 3 philosophies regarding the Emperor, Magnus, and Lorgar only 2. In my mind the Emperor and Magnus were going after the same end result of an enlightened, orderly and peaceful society that used warp power freely without being controlled by daemons. the difference is that Magnus did not appreciate the cunning and power of the Chaos Gods and because of that his perfect society was disrupted.

 

This. The endgame of the Emperor and humanity in general has always been said to be to guide our evolution into a race that can control its psychic powers and interactions with the warp - for really, that is the only way we can deal with our violent reflection on a permanent level and from a position of strength. The rising tide of psykers and other mutants born over the millennia is the signs of humanity's metamorphosis.

 

And I often think that psychic powers and the raw power benefits of the warp are greatly short changed in the latest media. Magnus can bring flying Thunderhawks down using his psychic powers, and that's treated as something wondrous. The old Beta and Alpha level psyker scale listed psykers that were regarded as powerful being able to turn an entire army to insane bloodlust at a whim, and crush Titans with a gesture. That is the power that is a temptation, that is the power that drives you insane, that is the power the Imperium fears. That lame Eldar witch lightning in the DOW II trailer? What is even the point of that when she coulda pulled a melta pistol and shot the charging captain the face. No, for psykers to be worth it, to be the threat everyone knows, they need to be powerful. Why shoot lighting when you can simply gruesomely disassemble your enemies with your mind?

 

The Gal Vorbak are what I'd regard it is to be possessed, easily tearing Carnifexes to pieces and generally being supernaturally unkillable. I often picture what it must have been for the Tau to first encounter possessed. Struggling against Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines drop in, massacre the 'nids with their Possessed and psychic powers, and then the Tau, who must think these space marines are some crazy genetic experiment gone wrong. The warp is powerful - with perhaps the only saving grace being that there are few who will survive to harness its full potential. To a technologically advanced society, there is little to be done to stop its full-blown power except by fighting on its level (psykers, blanks) or through extreme, costly sacrifice using conventional, non-psychic technology.

 

Sorry for the tangent, but yeah - do you prefer the Emperor and Magnus's more magnanimous vision that preserves as much of current humanity as possible through control over our baser instincts, or do you prefer the social darwinism and violent change of Chaos, by letting our natural urges flow freely to take the most direct route to power, at the expense of everyone who can't handle insanity. Either way, we become more psychically attuned.

 

There used to be/still is a third path as well...

[Kais Klip]

Awesome replies, lads.

 

Personally I just struggle to see how the higher tier of power in whatever society simply wouldn't dabble in the lore Erebus/Kor Phaeron acquired. Perhaps something like was on Caliban, a pure society on the inside with carefully orchestrated "degeneration" on the inside. The houses of Molech come to mind. Being able to bring back some dead girl, or even just teleport out of a fight gone wrong a la Erebus, seems to good to pass out. Even to just skin your face back on, what's the price of a million serfs that would be Chenkov'ed anyway? Im not a general fan of the subject, but part of me wishes for more detail on the costs of all that power that Kor and Erebus acquired.

 

Combine that with turning the techological wonders that are the Keys of Hel and I don't see why not.

 

As long as you're closest to the top dog, anyway.