Path of Heaven - Discussion

[Sandlemad]

Eidolon himself can see further to fall - they'll be slaves to more, mooore, regardless of tactical or strategic sense.

 

Just listened to The Soul, Severed, and yeah, turns out he really could fall further. Abandoning Horus's crusade and any larger purpose beyond "let's turn the civilian population of Terra into drugs". If Eidolon appeared jaded and listless in Path of Heaven, he's finally hit on a good goal to work towards now, even if he's passed the point of properly ordering a legion.

 

Seconding mc_warhammer though, having four distinct and fleshed-out POV characters from the Emperor's Children helps get the fall of the EC away from the barebones narrative of Fulgrim and the sword. Some of Cario's and Eidolon's thoughts on the matter really got across what the fall meant to different EC. Cario desiring the change but putting it off as long as possible. Eidolon seeing this as genuine improvement and evolution beyond what they could previously have understood. The latter neatly parallels Mortarion's desperate insistence on keeping his legion 'pure' and Yesugei's concern over the WS becoming harder and joyless.

[Crimson Devil]

I got the impression Caio didn't really want the change. He was just paying lip service to it. Otherwise his actions at the end don't make sense.

[Scribe]

I got the impression Caio didn't really want the change. He was just paying lip service to it. Otherwise his actions at the end don't make sense.

 

He wasnt going to get his perfect kill in before the change. So he said 'forget it'.

 

Thats what I took from it.

[b1soul]

Cario was a good character...pity he's gone alone with the rest of his squad/company

[HeritorA]

 

I got the impression Caio didn't really want the change. He was just paying lip service to it. Otherwise his actions at the end don't make sense.

 

He wasnt going to get his perfect kill in before the change. So he said 'forget it'.

 

Thats what I took from it.

 

Not exactly. He didn't make the perfect kill cause he understood that if he will do that - the change will overcome him, and he will be lost as a paragon of what SM is and become like his 'corrupt and flawed' brothers.

 

That's why he dropped weapons and simply give the khan a chance to kill him.

[b1soul]

Would've liked Jubal to step in and save Shiban from Cario...maybe show Cario the meaning of speed ;)

[HeritorA]

Would've liked Jubal to step in and save Shiban from Cario...maybe show Cario the meaning of speed

Oh yesss. That point would be much better - cause 'trap' for Mortarion has zero chances from the beginning, lol

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

I got the impression Caio didn't really want the change. He was just paying lip service to it. Otherwise his actions at the end don't make sense.

He wasnt going to get his perfect kill in before the change. So he said 'forget it'.

 

Thats what I took from it.

Not exactly. He didn't make the perfect kill cause he understood that if he will do that - the change will overcome him, and he will be lost as a paragon of what SM is and become like his 'corrupt and flawed' brothers.

 

That's why he dropped weapons and simply give the khan a chance to kill him.

That makes sense too. :)

 

Have to admit by that point I was focused on warp/time/webway thoughts.

[Gree]

I think my issue is that the EC went from loyal to strap on wearing joker caricatures too fast. Even the Word Bearers, after 40 years of chaos worship, only had that level of corruption in small numbers. All the EC described so far have no distance between themselves and a full fledged chaos marine. It's just a personal taste thing, but it makes me sad because I love Wraight . It's one of those scenarios where you just don't like a faction enough to stick it out, even if you love the author.

Indeed, I always felt they went ''full Slaanesh'' too fast in the Fulgrim novel. It seemed like they went from starting forbidden experiments around Istvaan III to going full Chaos-worshiping freaks around Istvaan V when the other Legions had only just started down the path of corruptions.

From what I've skimmed in Path of Heaven and listening to the new Eidolon audio short, I did like Wraight's take on them with different degrees still of corruption among the Emperor's Children.

[Loesh]

I think my issue is that the EC went from loyal to strap on wearing joker caricatures too fast. Even the Word Bearers, after 40 years of chaos worship, only had that level of corruption in small numbers. All the EC described so far have no distance between themselves and a full fledged chaos marine. It's just a personal taste thing, but it makes me sad because I love Wraight . It's one of those scenarios where you just don't like a faction enough to stick it out, even if you love the author.

Indeed, I always felt they went ''full Slaanesh'' too fast in the Fulgrim novel. It seemed like they went from starting forbidden experiments around Istvaan III to going full Chaos-worshiping freaks around Istvaan V when the other Legions had only just started down the path of corruptions.

From what I've skimmed in Path of Heaven and listening to the new Eidolon audio short, I did like Wraight's take on them with different degrees still of corruption among the Emperor's Children.

By contrast, that's actually one of my favorite things about the Third Legion series. Well..to a degree anyway, I feel like the actual change was poorly handled, the descriptions of how the legion was swayed poorly done. But the concept of the paragons of the imperium turning so wholly to Chaos by the time the Heresy exploded out was thematically wonderful.

[Gree]

I think my issue is that the EC went from loyal to strap on wearing joker caricatures too fast. Even the Word Bearers, after 40 years of chaos worship, only had that level of corruption in small numbers. All the EC described so far have no distance between themselves and a full fledged chaos marine. It's just a personal taste thing, but it makes me sad because I love Wraight . It's one of those scenarios where you just don't like a faction enough to stick it out, even if you love the author.

Indeed, I always felt they went ''full Slaanesh'' too fast in the Fulgrim novel. It seemed like they went from starting forbidden experiments around Istvaan III to going full Chaos-worshiping freaks around Istvaan V when the other Legions had only just started down the path of corruptions.

From what I've skimmed in Path of Heaven and listening to the new Eidolon audio short, I did like Wraight's take on them with different degrees still of corruption among the Emperor's Children.

By contrast, that's actually one of my favorite things about the Third Legion series. Well..to a degree anyway, I feel like the actual change was poorly handled, the descriptions of how the legion was swayed poorly done. But the concept of the paragons of the imperium turning so wholly to Chaos by the time the Heresy exploded out was thematically wonderful.

Actually I always felt that the fall of the Emperor's Children was rather forced and awkward. I could always see the connections with the World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons, but Perfection to Pleasure and Excess always seemed a bit of a stretch to me. It seemed like out fof all of the Legion they should have taken the longest, or at least that's how I would have written them.

Forge World and other supplementary fluff did more on that to emphasize their arrogance and less savory aspects, but it still fells rather forced to me.

Though how Graham McNeill writes them also plays a part, I've never really liked his depiction of them from Fulgrim to Angel Exterminatus either. The Emperor's Children always come across as a bunch of shrieking lemmings to me. It's not really how I imagined them.

[Loesh]

 

Actually I always felt that the fall of the Emperor's Children was rather forced and awkward. I could always see the connections with the World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons, but Perfection to Pleasure and Excess always seemed a bit of a stretch to me. It seemed like out fof all of the Legion they should have taken the longest, or at least that's how I would have written them.

 

Forge World and other supplementary fluff did more on that to emphasize their arrogance and less savory aspects, but it still fells rather forced to me.

 

Though how Graham McNeill writes them also plays a part, I've never really liked his depiction of them from Fulgrim to Angel Exterminatus either. The Emperor's Children always come across as a bunch of shrieking lemmings to me. It's not really how I imagined them.

 

 

I don't personally see the disconnect, it always made sense to me that trying to perfect at something would lead to more complexity and more complexity would lead to excess. Fabius's sway of Fulgrims horribly rushed, but the idea of sensory augmentation leading down to the path of Slaanesh has always been a perfect fit for me. I also never saw them as particulary arrogant compared to other legions(Looking at you, Thousand Sons.) but rather that their fear of failure was what led to that reputation and their inevitable fall. That when they do turn they excel in Chaos and take it to it's logical extreme seems like a solid progression. One of my favorite parts of Primogenitor in fact is touching upon that fall and how hard it was.

 

With the Death Guard on the other hand I always saw the connection as arbitrary beyond 'they are tough, nurgle is tough, therefore he'd corrupt a tough legion!' and the fluff of how Nurgle gets strong the more a target resists his powers. Beyond that it seemed like their 'corruption' was more the result of Mortarion just being an idiot who thought he could fight witchcraft with witchcraft and then got burned.

[Gree]

 

 

Actually I always felt that the fall of the Emperor's Children was rather forced and awkward. I could always see the connections with the World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons, but Perfection to Pleasure and Excess always seemed a bit of a stretch to me. It seemed like out fof all of the Legion they should have taken the longest, or at least that's how I would have written them.

 

Forge World and other supplementary fluff did more on that to emphasize their arrogance and less savory aspects, but it still fells rather forced to me.

 

Though how Graham McNeill writes them also plays a part, I've never really liked his depiction of them from Fulgrim to Angel Exterminatus either. The Emperor's Children always come across as a bunch of shrieking lemmings to me. It's not really how I imagined them.

 

 

I don't personally see the disconnect, it always made sense to me that trying to perfect at something would lead to more complexity and more complexity would lead to excess. Fabius's sway of Fulgrims horribly rushed, but the idea of sensory augmentation leading down to the path of Slaanesh has always been a perfect fit for me. I also never saw them as particular arrogant compared to other legions(Looking at you, Thousand Sons.) but rather that their fear of failure was what led to that reputation and their inevitable fall. That when they do turn they excel in Chaos and take it to it's logical extreme seems like a solid progression. One of my favorite parts of Primogenitor in fact is touching upon that fall and how hard it was.

 

 

I suppose different shakes for different people.

 

It still seems forced and awkward to me.

[Loesh]

 

 

I suppose different shakes for different people.

 

It still seems forced and awkward to me.

 

 

 

 

Sure, and I don't see anything wrong with having a differing opinion. Just clarifying my own point of view where both the Death Guard and Thousand Sons seemed way more forced. Those bits about Magnus embracing change in A Thousand Sons seem almost random and suddenly thrown in compared to Fulgrim starting to love the sensations that came along with his transformation in Fulgrim and progressively getting addicted to the sensation of becoming a more and more complex being on that endless road to being perfect.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

I suppose different shakes for different people.

 

It still seems forced and awkward to me.

 

 

 

 

Sure, and I don't see anything wrong with having a differing opinion. Just clarifying my own point of view where both the Death Guard and Thousand Sons seemed way more forced. Those bits about Magnus embracing change in A Thousand Sons seem almost random and suddenly thrown in compared to Fulgrim starting to love the sensations that came along with his transformation in Fulgrim and progressively getting addicted to the sensation of becoming a more and more complex being on that endless road to being perfect.

 

Thousand Sons were never forced - after all TS is and ever will be one of the best HH books of all times. Death Guard through - indeed seemed way more forced.

 

'Those bits about Magnus embracing change in A Thousand Sons ' - totally disagree. He embraced it long before - then he saved his sons from death by unstoppable mutation. It never was random.

Fulgrim corruption on other hand - was totally ruined and blank. Cause it was a copied version of Dorian Gray.

[b1soul]

Perfection to Pleasure and Excess always seemed a bit of a stretch to me.

Honestly, the WS seem a better Slaaneshi fit

 

They seem the most enraptured by the thrill of combat, the sensation of speed, the chaotic melee of battle

[Sete]

Chris needs to join the forum. I have so many questions about the Emperors legion book for 40k.

[HeritorA]

Chris needs to join the forum. I have so many questions about the Emperors legion book for 40k.

Definitely. Sooo many questions ;)

[Loesh]

 

 

 

 

I suppose different shakes for different people.

 

It still seems forced and awkward to me.

 

 

 

 

Sure, and I don't see anything wrong with having a differing opinion. Just clarifying my own point of view where both the Death Guard and Thousand Sons seemed way more forced. Those bits about Magnus embracing change in A Thousand Sons seem almost random and suddenly thrown in compared to Fulgrim starting to love the sensations that came along with his transformation in Fulgrim and progressively getting addicted to the sensation of becoming a more and more complex being on that endless road to being perfect.

 

Thousand Sons were never forced - after all TS is and ever will be one of the best HH books of all times. Death Guard through - indeed seemed way more forced.

 

'Those bits about Magnus embracing change in A Thousand Sons ' - totally disagree. He embraced it long before - then he saved his sons from death by unstoppable mutation. It never was random.

Fulgrim corruption on other hand - was totally ruined and blank. Cause it was a copied version of Dorian Gray.

 

 

...Isn't that stagnation? He made a pact to stop change from occurring, yet much later in the book he's going on about the necessity and evolution in his aetheric form with seemingly no prompting.  If anything i'd figure he'd absolutely hate change after that particular experience. Fulgrim was by no means perfect, often sharing similar flaws to A Thousand Sons as a matter of fact, but often I find A Thousands Sons significantly more hamfisted. I still cringe more when Magnus is reciting the meaning of Horus's name more then I cringe at Fabius's rushed corruption of Fulgrim.

 

By contrast in Fulgrim's imitation of Dorian Grey is only a shade of that story, not the driving of it. Throughout the book the corruption is taking an obvious effect on his perception of the world but it's not consuming his personality. He's still resisting through much of the story, trying to sort out the real from the fake, but his guilt over various things: The cost of his drive towards being perfect,  his brother Ferrus Manus,  the genetic defect that afflicted his Legion, and ultimately his fear of his own failure more then sensation is driving him. Which I think are actually very relatable reasons to turn, in many ways I actually found Fulgrim a lot less arrogant then the caricature I expected in the HH entry. Certainly a lot less arrogant then some of the other Primarchs have been shown to be, such as Mr 'I know everything and i'm the embodiment of perfection' Magnus over there.

 

I even dare say, Fulgrim had a much more human showing then many of the other Primarchs.

[b1soul]

Were the EC more perfectionist than the IW?

 

 

I think perhaps the EC fell to Slaanesh because of their flaming flamboyance

[Loesh]

Were the EC more perfectionist than the IW?

 

 

I think perhaps the EC fell to Slaanesh because of their flaming flamboyance

 

With the Iron Warriors I don't think it was even close, even when factoring in battles of offense or defense the Third Legion got their reputation by winning battles perfectly, often without their opponents even being able to retaliate. 

 

As far as flamboyance, not sure if you've seen the Sanguinary Guard, but if that was the case the Angel wouldn't of stood with the Emperor at the Eternity Gate. :P

[b1soul]

the Third Legion got their reputation by winning battles perfectly, often without their opponents even being able to retaliate.

Pretty sure the EC took major losses in some campaigns like every other legion...no?

[Loesh]

 

the Third Legion got their reputation by winning battles perfectly, often without their opponents even being able to retaliate.

Pretty sure the EC took major losses in some campaigns like every other legion...no?

 

 

During the defense of tranquility a then nascent Emperor's Children force, despite being outnumbered they studied and memorized the surface of the planet. Despite their enemies being powerful crystalline beings who could cut through Ceramite the Emperors Children knew where to run, where to hide, and where to lure them into killzones. Eventually inflicting causalities on such a scale that the aliens were forced to turn their fleets weapons on the planet, which let the Imperial Navy get close enough to annihilate them.

 

That's not to say the Emperors Children never took losses but they did so with a brutal efficiency that consistently exceeded the Emperor's expectations of the Legion, as emphasized by Laer where they took a significant number of losses but conquered a planet that was expected to take an entire decade within the span of a month. This went all the way down to their combat style, things like Mara Skara were designed to kill opponents cleanly with a single strike and then move on to the next target. 

 

War is an artform. The Emperor's Children may not of had the reputation for siege warfare of the Iron Warriors, or the raw combat prowess of the World Eaters, but every unit was tailored towards working within it's unit to operate with as much meticulous perfection as they could muster on the whole.

[b1soul]

I'm just saying, I don't think the EC could be that much all-around more efficient than other legions...otherwise they'd render their cousins obsolete

 

I'd have re-read Betrayal to recall their weaknesses. I'm guessing it was a tendency to over-plan, to get bogged down with details

[Ashur]

 

Perfection to Pleasure and Excess always seemed a bit of a stretch to me.

Honestly, the WS seem a better Slaaneshi fit

 

They seem the most enraptured by the thrill of combat, the sensation of speed, the chaotic melee of battle

 

 

That makes a lot of sense. I've always pictured slanneshi WS like count Zaroff from "The most dangerous game", seeing the galaxy and everything in it as game to be hunted down.