mc warhammer Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 imo, "a thousand sons" had all the same things i find problematic in the rest of mcneill's novels...but my feeling is that its esteem is somewhat elevated due to the sheer importance of the story itself and its place in the lore. add that the base plot had been established for decades and it would be hard to ruin. even though i still saw those "problems", i easily forgave them because i was enjoying myself anyway. less so with "fulgrim", "angels x" and "outcast dead" etc i find that "galaxy in flames" is buoyed in the same way, though not quite as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 Aren't you thinking False Gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 imo, "a thousand sons" had all the same things i find problematic in the rest of mcneill's novels... Agreed. I find so many problems with that novel it isnt funny, but stopped discussing it because I get accused of bias. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Aren't you thinking False Gods? nope, though i can see why you'd think that seeing as it is the mcneill novel of the original trilogy. "gif" has such a powerful, poignant story behind it that counter's less than inspiring writing is more forgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Rumors are that Uriel Ventris is gonna make an appearance in the form of a psychic vision in Crimson King. ... Okay not really. But how believable is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 I actually think ATS has better prose than Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus For example, the scene on Shrike [?] is very entertaining and solidly written I couldn’t slog my way through either OD or AE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Aren't you thinking False Gods? nope, though i can see why you'd think that seeing as it is the mcneill novel of the original trilogy. "gif" has such a powerful, poignant story behind it that counter's less than inspiring writing is more forgivable. All good points. My pet peeve is the contrivance for the Mournival to all meet. "So Ezekyle, you and Little Horus will go alone to this building and wait there, assuming Loken and Torgaddon aren't killed en route by the army who are going to assault the palace under the command of your subordinates." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I really enjoyed A Thousand Sons So when I picked up Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus, I was expecting similar quality I was really disappointed... Exactly - they were uber bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I really enjoyed A Thousand Sons So when I picked up Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus, I was expecting similar quality I was really disappointed... Exactly - they were uber bad http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd85/LCenteno23/jackie-chan-whut.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Cut out Nykona Sharrowkyn and his wacky friends and AE would have been pretty good. On the topic of Path of Heaven, we sure are spoiled to have gotten not one but two amazing entries in the series this year. Three if you count Pharos' physical release. Also, mad props for making Eidolon a good character. That was quite a feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Sharrowkyn was my favourite thing about AE. Technically he's an awful character, but he's just so damn cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I can't read him. It's not an endearing, awful absurdity like Flashheart or Ace Rimmer. It's just awful. --- Well, of course not. McNeill's a decent writer and the characters are plainly enjoyed by tons of fairly sensible (and some insensible) people - so being apparently awful can't quite be the root of it. Rather, I fear, it's a massive tone/style thing. For me: What's the point in Horus fighting the Emperor if Nykona is already effortlessly better than every god that ever exists? (And with less personality than most ineffable deities from beyond mortal ken.) If he was written like Ludwig Schwarzhelm, maybe... (E.g terribly competent but so agonisingly boring, focused, and serious that it's actually a perverse joy to read.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Sharrowkyn was my favourite thing about AE. Technically he's an awful character, but he's just so damn cool. If it was just him, I would have been alright. He's a frustrating mary-sue, but I would have lived. If I didn't know that it would get better again, I would have stopped reading the damned thing after that idiot Thamatica nearly blows them all up by doing the exact thing he was ordered to not do, and then not getting executed for it. I could hardly believe what I was reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 19, 2016 Author Share Posted September 19, 2016 Sharrowkyn was OK Not really more Mary Sue-ish than Sigismund, Khârn, Sevatar, Ahriman... He’s competent, he’s good...that’s what an RG Mor Deythan is supposed to be. He beat Lucius? So have/will a lot of ppl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Sharrowkyn was OK Not really more Mary Sue-ish than Sigismund, Khârn, Sevatar, Ahriman... He’s competent, he’s good...that’s what an RG Mor Deythan is supposed to be. He beat Lucius? So have/will a lot of ppl A lot of people's problems with him was when Sharrowkyn was first introduced, he wasn't a Mor Deythan, or if he was no one knew what that was. Not until the release of HH3: Extermination did people really understand what it meant to be a Shadow Master. At the time, he was just a run of the mill Raven Guard marine. He wasn't introduced as anyone of great importance and yet wiped the floor with everyone he came across. Though for me, it's the fact that his name backwards is a reference to a certain set of prequels we'd all like to forgot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 nykworrahs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I assume he means his first name, Nykona = "Anokyn" (though I've never noticed that myself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Ugh, that character...the worst. Hope someone can redeem that Legion, but I have my doubts at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I'm in the camp that Sharrowkyn was the only thing good about AE. Seriously. However, wrong thread for that cathartic rant. Guess I'll just bottle it up and let it fester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 At the time, he was just a run of the mill Raven Guard marine. Sharrowkyn might be a badly written character because McNeill's writing is often...not that good ...but his "power level" is fine. He is as good as en elite marine should be. Nothing about what he does suggests that he is a "run of the mill" RG marine. I'm not a huge fan of McNeill, but seriously...if a reader assumes that a wraith-slipping RG marine capable of besting Lucius in a contest of skill is merely “average” for his legion, that is more the reader’s fault than McNeill’s. Readers should be able to put two and two together without the authour having to announce it That said, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to argue that Sharrowkyn is a boring character minus his ninja skills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I'm fine with his power level...now knowing what a Mor Deythen is. But at the time, he had no rank, no accolades, no past experiences, and his personality and attitude certainly did not speak for itself. Although I'll admit, I'd probably feel a little better about him if I had gotten to read Kryptos before Angel Exterminatus, which was pretty good in Legacies of Betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 i don't mind the idea of sharrowkyn (though the name feels like a high schooler's first dark elf d&d character), but i can see how his introduction was maybe a little OTT for some. from memory, sharrowkyn assassinates a primarch almost straight away. that's a hell of an intro and doesn't give the readership time to know him or grow to realise his bad assery over time- it's flung in their faces immediately. thats the first point of judgement and it feels like it comes out of nowhere and it's bound to split reactions. it makes sense for the RG to have an elite warrior on par with lucius in their legion, but even lucius was introduced with a bunch of flaws and humbling experiences, making his particular skillset easier to swallow as it improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Mor Deythan got their first real showing in The Shadowmasters which released alongside Corax: Soulforge's limited edition, about half a year after Angel Exterminatus hit hardback, and before it got its mass market paperbacks, and about a year before Extermination came around. And to be fair, Kryptos released in June 2012, versus Angel Exterminatus in October. Reading that first, getting the character introductions etc, places Sharrowkyn and Wayland in a much better context than just going off of Angel Exterminatus. But to be frank, I didn't see Sharrowkyn and co almost assassinating Fulgrim as a big deal - not when it comes to long-range sniping of a target that clearly exposed itself and wasn't (or was?) aware of the threat. The Iron Hands / Shattered Legions did similar in various places. Nemesis had assassins almost killing Horus, though it turned out to be a double. Same way, even: Snipers. Its not like Nykona went to go stabby stabby on Fulgrim, he just placed a shot. And don't forget that Lucius was introduced years before the onset of the Heresy, whereas the Shattered Legions, including the Sysypheum, have been waging their war of hit and run for years, after losing their Primarchs at Isstvan V. Lucius' flaws come from hubris, whereas the Shattered Legion suffer from their grief and desperation. Both Nykona and Lucius have flaws, they're just of a different sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I was under the impression that Fulgrim let himself get shot to sell the deal to Perturabo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Mor Deythan got their first real showing in The Shadowmasters which released alongside Corax: Soulforge's limited edition, about half a year after Angel Exterminatus hit hardback, and before it got its mass market paperbacks, and about a year before Extermination came around. And to be fair, Kryptos released in June 2012, versus Angel Exterminatus in October. Reading that first, getting the character introductions etc, places Sharrowkyn and Wayland in a much better context than just going off of Angel Exterminatus. But to be frank, I didn't see Sharrowkyn and co almost assassinating Fulgrim as a big deal - not when it comes to long-range sniping of a target that clearly exposed itself and wasn't (or was?) aware of the threat. The Iron Hands / Shattered Legions did similar in various places. Nemesis had assassins almost killing Horus, though it turned out to be a double. Same way, even: Snipers. Its not like Nykona went to go stabby stabby on Fulgrim, he just placed a shot. And don't forget that Lucius was introduced years before the onset of the Heresy, whereas the Shattered Legions, including the Sysypheum, have been waging their war of hit and run for years, after losing their Primarchs at Isstvan V. Lucius' flaws come from hubris, whereas the Shattered Legion suffer from their grief and desperation. Both Nykona and Lucius have flaws, they're just of a different sort. fair points and a good reminder that the order i read in isn't necessarily the order of release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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