Path of Heaven - Discussion

[b1soul]

I was under the impression that Fulgrim let himself get shot to sell the deal to Perturabo...

Yes...that is precisely my impression as well

 

Fulgrim knew he was going to be sniped at...and calculated that he could tank the round to gain Perturabo’s sympathy

 

A bit silly yes...but it really waters down the awesomeness of that feat

[DarkChaplain]

fair points and a good reminder that the order i read in isn't necessarily the order of release.

 

That's the biggest issue I see with the short story / audio drama releases. I love them in theory, but having them delayed forever when it comes to print as part of the main series, it only means that people will miss out a lot. A lot of the stories tide things from novel to novel, or introduce characters with more focus than a full novel allows nowadays.

 

Look at Heart of the Pharos / The Dark Between the Stars originally, which is a prequel to Pharos but was released after the early ebook release, and isn't even included in Echoes of Imperium, the audio drama collection. It is only available standalone, digitally, for the time being, and adds a great deal to the situation pre-Pharos, with Oberdeii and the Lion's intentions and role.

 

Look at Aeonid Thiel's Red-Marked origin story, which was supposed to release earlier but only arrived this year, mere months before being printed in Eye of Terra, but years after Stratagem already tells us of Thiel's success in handing Guilliman his armor as a gift and explaining the Red-Marked. It also released a year after Deathfire, which saw Thiel doing the job with his Red-Marked even after Stratagem, which meant that you already knew who'd survive the origin story at least.

 

Look at the four event/limited anthologies collected in War Without End:

The Devine Adoratrice is a cool intro piece to Vengeful Spirit, hugely enjoyable. Lord of the Red Sands is an Isstvan III piece which was released ages ago in the mini-anthology "Angron" shortly after Butcher's Nails. Artefacts would have been better off read before Vulkan Lives.

And on the matter of that, the Scorched Earth novella which was a prequel to Vulkan Lives and asks the question the mere existence of the novel answered already, shipped as a limited edition after Vulkan Lives was already available to read, iirc.

Sermon of Exodus is a prequel intro to The Damnation of Pythos, which can be read before or after (it spoils the foreseeable twist of the humans being cultists from Davin).

Daemonology should've been read before Vengeful Spirit, to show Mortarion's experiments before they went boom.

Black Oculus leads into Tallarn: Ironclad, or the Tallarn arc in general, though those stories haven't been collected in the main series yet at least.

The Laurel of Defiance and A Safe and Shadowed Place make most sense before Pharos, but they released them out of order.

 

There's even more with Eye of Terra, where The Long Night happens before Pharos as far as I can tell, and The Eagle's Talon and Iron Corpses are part of the Tallarn arc, which has not otherwise been touched in the main series so their significance is reduced.

 

And Luna Mendax from The Silent War should've been a thing before Vengeful Spirit, which is missing that link and Garro: Legion of One so as to not simple go "this character is alive again, btw". Even within The Silent War, Luna Mendax is out of order, after Grey Angel where Loken is on a mission.

 

Honestly, this staggered release pattern is a mess for people to navigate. Even if you read everything as it releases originally, you'll jump back and forth. I love the fragmented nature of the series with short format stories adding pieces and connecting things, expanding on characters and events in a more focused way. But it is making for an often incoherent experience for the average reader who only buys the mainline books.

[HeritorA]

Cut out Nykona Sharrowkyn and his wacky friends and AE would have been pretty good.

 

On the topic of Path of Heaven, we sure are spoiled to have gotten not one but two amazing entries in the series this year. Three if you count Pharos' physical release. 

 

Also, mad props for making Eidolon a good character. That was quite a feat.

yes - they were.

 

 

At the time, he was just a run of the mill Raven Guard marine.

Sharrowkyn might be a badly written character because McNeill's writing is often...not that good

 

...but his "power level" is fine. He is as good as en elite marine should be. Nothing about what he does suggests that he is a "run of the mill" RG marine.

 

I'm not a huge fan of McNeill, but seriously...if a reader assumes that a wraith-slipping RG marine capable of besting Lucius in a contest of skill is merely “average” for his legion, that is more the reader’s fault than McNeill’s. Readers should be able to put two and two together without the authour having to announce it

 

That said, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to argue that Sharrowkyn is a boring character minus his ninja skills

 

  Very thougthful opinion, actually totally agree on that.

 

I was under the impression that Fulgrim let himself get shot to sell the deal to Perturabo...

  He definitely did - due to the fact that he already planned all trip to 'Angel Exterminatus' that was just a steping stone

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Yea, I always figured as much.

Taking the shot was a gamble to win the trust of a overly paranoid primarch.

 

He needed to sell it and sell it hard.

[HeritorA]

Yea, I always figured as much.

Taking the shot was a gamble to win the trust of a overly paranoid primarch.

 

He needed to sell it and sell it hard.

 

   Yes he did

[Augustus]

I was under the impression that Fulgrim let himself get shot to sell the deal to Perturabo...

Yeah. That justification is like when I lose at basketball and I say " oh I want really even trying" as I almost die from exhaustion.

 

He had-no- idea. It was used to highlight how far his hubris had taken him.

 

But I'm surprised that many of you thought he did. Maybe I'm wrong and he actually did... I just can't see it though

[HeritorA]

 

I was under the impression that Fulgrim let himself get shot to sell the deal to Perturabo...

Yeah. That justification is like when I lose at basketball and I say " oh I want really even trying" as I almost die from exhaustion.

 

He had-no- idea. It was used to highlight how far his hubris had taken him.

 

But I'm surprised that many of you thought he did. Maybe I'm wrong and he actually did... I just can't see it though

 

He did

[Augustus]

Is there anything from the text that shows that?

 

Play nice

 

WLK

[HeritorA]

Is there anything from the text that shows that?

 

 His preparation before the events and behavior before it. And retrospections in Warp

[hopkins]

if you want a decent opinion, ask graham mcneill on twitter

[Augustus]

Hmm. If the author says so it's hard to argue with that. But I've played sports and games with too many arrogant braggarts to believe he knew what was coming.

He put on a grandiose theatrical display? Yeah. Perfectly in tune with his character. He hammed it up with Perturabo? Again in character with his character.
Told his men he had to let himself get shot to convince Perturabo? Perfectly in line. So, if someone can point out that he winked at the guy starting him down in sniper scope or something similar I could believe it. IMO there is nothing ambiguous about it. He wanted to impress his guys because he wants to be adored and fawned over.
Of course there is nothing to say you're wrong if you do believe he knew. Especially if McNeil comes out and says he did. But from what I remember of the text nothing really convinced me he did.
Perhaps if it was any other Primarch I could buy it. "But Fulgrim's hubris is too damn high." Good place for that meme.

[HeritorA]

Hmm. If the author says so it's hard to argue with that. But I've played sports and games with too many arrogant braggarts to believe he knew what was coming.

He put on a grandiose theatrical display? Yeah. Perfectly in tune with his character. He hammed it up with Perturabo? Again in character with his character.

Told his men he had to let himself get shot to convince Perturabo? Perfectly in line. So, if someone can point out that he winked at the guy starting him down in sniper scope or something similar I could believe it. IMO there is nothing ambiguous about it. He wanted to impress his guys because he wants to be adored and fawned over.

Of course there is nothing to say you're wrong if you do believe he knew. Especially if McNeil comes out and says he did. But from what I remember of the text nothing really convinced me he did.

Perhaps if it was any other Primarch I could buy it. "But Fulgrim's hubris is to damn high." Good place for that meme.

Well thought!

[Loesh]

I would note that in Angel Exterminatus, Fulgrim not so subtly alludes to the fact that he was going to be the one to slit Roboutes throat, not Lorgar, in fact if you want to really stretch the text he may of even known Kor Phaeron failed to kill Roboute despite what was probably little direct knowledge of Calith.

 

I think that it's fair to assume being stuck in that painting gave him a fair bit of precognition, that he's barely upset about the whole ordeal...when he flipped on Eidolon at the drop of a hat...and how powerful it was a tool to swing Pertarubo, I always thought it was blindingly obvious he let Sharrowkyn shoot him.

[Augustus]

Well. Possibly. But then did he know that Perturabo would not die? Did he know that Horus would fail? Did he know what I had for lunch the other day? :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well. Possibly. But then did he know that Perturabo would not die? Did he know that Horus would fail? Did he know what I had for lunch the other day?

I thought Perturabo was the bait

I dont think he cared

He might, the warp works in mysterious ways

[Dosjetka]

Despite the Emperor's Children important role in the book, let's go back to discussing the book itself and not Angel Exterminatus. :tu:

[bluntblade]

Are we talking about Path of Heaven again, then?

 

I quite like that, even when characters can guess some of the details regarding the Webway project, no one can join all the dots. For example, Jaghatai (and the Navigators) doesn't realise that Mankind's evolution is taking it towards becoming a psychic race.

 

Also, I feel Path of Heaven is pleasantly lean, having had to slog through one or two books before.

[bluntblade]

One thing I've appreciated more and more is the bit where Ilya ponders what she's seen the Khan do. Reminds me a bit of subtly Abnett builds up Horus, and it's oddly evocative too.

[bluntblade]

Another detail has come back to me that I really like; how Jaghatai holds a blade against Jubal's scar when he promotes him. It's a nice touch

[b1soul]

Just wish we got to see Jubal in action...like in French's Templar

 

Would've been nice to witness Jubal as chops up some lesser EC champion or something like that

[HeritorA]

Just wish we got to see Jubal in action...like in French's Templar

Would've been nice to witness Jubal as chops up some lesser EC champion or something like that

So true. I would so liked some surprise - like for Eidolon to be totally and once and for all times chopped down and being dead

[bluntblade]

Just wish we got to see Jubal in action...like in French's Templar

Would've been nice to witness Jubal as chops up some lesser EC champion or something like that

I want a short for him now, as I like him from what we've seen of him

[HeritorA]

 

Just wish we got to see Jubal in action...like in French's Templar

Would've been nice to witness Jubal as chops up some lesser EC champion or something like that

I want a short for him now, as I like him from what we've seen of him

 

But this one done by Wraight - he is a Legion master of WS now :)

[b1soul]

 

Just wish we got to see Jubal in action...like in French's Templar

Would've been nice to witness Jubal as chops up some lesser EC champion or something like that

I want a short for him now, as I like him from what we've seen of him

Templar was good...but Jubal is mainly there to set up how awesome Sigismund is

 

Yeah, I'd like him to be the focus of a WS HH novel by Wraight, covering the battle over the Lions Gate Spaceport

[Sete]

Well Jubal in Templar is pretty awesome. He showed how different in temperament and attitude they are. I really liked him. But ofc he is not the main focus of the story.