helterskelter Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I'm just saying, I don't think the EC could be that much all-around more efficient than other legions...otherwise they'd render their cousins obsolete I'd have re-read Betrayal to recall their weaknesses. I'm guessing it was a tendency to over-plan, to get bogged down with details I think overwhelming arrogance is the EC problem, you look at Eidolon before his transformation, lucius, Fulgrim, they get into this mindset they think they're the best. The problem is they encounter situations that take the carpet from under them and that arrogance is what makes things go very wrong very quickly. Not saying they arent great fighters, Eidolon is superb in Path of Heaven and seems to have learnt his lessons the very very very hard way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 Eidolon's screams are like an anti-tank weapon now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I'm just saying, I don't think the EC could be that much all-around more efficient than other legions...otherwise they'd render their cousins obsolete I'd have re-read Betrayal to recall their weaknesses. I'm guessing it was a tendency to over-plan, to get bogged down with details Not that they aren't without weakness(The occasional bouts of hubris like on Murder come to mind.) but if that was true, why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. The Emperor's Children were just considered to embody the Astartes ideal better then any other Legion, after all this is a group who exclusively over anyone else was allowed to wear the Emperor's personal insignia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I'm just saying, I don't think the EC could be that much all-around more efficient than other legions...otherwise they'd render their cousins obsolete I'd have re-read Betrayal to recall their weaknesses. I'm guessing it was a tendency to over-plan, to get bogged down with details Not that they aren't without weakness(The occasional bouts of hubris like on Murder come to mind.) but if that was true, why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. The Emperor's Children were just considered to embody the Astartes ideal better then any other Legion, after all this is a group who exclusively over anyone else was allowed to wear the Emperor's personal insignia. They were cosidered to embody Astartes 'spirit/profile' not that they are the most profficient/exemplar force on the battlefield. That right went to DA and Sons of Horus. Sons of Horus has nothing to prove - by having Horus a Warmaster they already proved that their Legion and Primarch are better than everyone else. Their pride is satisfied. All the daemonic possessed SM squads are not one created from hubris - but from utility. To be specialised shock/terror troops and refresh the losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I'm just saying, I don't think the EC could be that much all-around more efficient than other legions...otherwise they'd render their cousins obsolete I'd have re-read Betrayal to recall their weaknesses. I'm guessing it was a tendency to over-plan, to get bogged down with details Not that they aren't without weakness(The occasional bouts of hubris like on Murder come to mind.) but if that was true, why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. The Emperor's Children were just considered to embody the Astartes ideal better then any other Legion, after all this is a group who exclusively over anyone else was allowed to wear the Emperor's personal insignia. They were cosidered to embody Astartes 'spirit/profile' not that they are the most profficient/exemplar force on the battlefield. That right went to DA and Sons of Horus. Sons of Horus has nothing to prove - by having Horus a Warmaster they already proved that their Legion and Primarch are better than everyone else. Their pride is satisfied. All the daemonic possessed SM squads are not one created from hubris - but from utility. To be specialised shock/terror troops and refresh the losses. I'v never seen anything in any fluff to indicate they were not renowned for being exemplar warriors, and indeed have only read material to the exact opposite. The Sons of Horus however had the largest accumulation of victories and compliance's, which is what the Emperor wanted more then displays of power. Again, the third legion were able to take a planet estimated to take a decade by the greater imperium to conquer in the span of a month, a feat that was perhaps only achievable by them. Stamping the palatine Aquila on their chest indicates an excellence in all things, it is after all the Emperors heraldry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I'm just saying, I don't think the EC could be that much all-around more efficient than other legions...otherwise they'd render their cousins obsolete I'd have re-read Betrayal to recall their weaknesses. I'm guessing it was a tendency to over-plan, to get bogged down with details Not that they aren't without weakness(The occasional bouts of hubris like on Murder come to mind.) but if that was true, why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. The Emperor's Children were just considered to embody the Astartes ideal better then any other Legion, after all this is a group who exclusively over anyone else was allowed to wear the Emperor's personal insignia. They were cosidered to embody Astartes 'spirit/profile' not that they are the most profficient/exemplar force on the battlefield. That right went to DA and Sons of Horus. Sons of Horus has nothing to prove - by having Horus a Warmaster they already proved that their Legion and Primarch are better than everyone else. Their pride is satisfied. All the daemonic possessed SM squads are not one created from hubris - but from utility. To be specialised shock/terror troops and refresh the losses. I'v never seen anything in any fluff to indicate they were not renowned for being exemplar warriors, and indeed have only read material to the exact opposite. The Sons of Horus however had the largest accumulation of victories and compliance's, which is what the Emperor wanted more then displays of power. Again, the third legion were able to take a planet estimated to take a decade by the greater imperium to conquer in the span of a month, a feat that was perhaps only achievable by them. Stamping the palatine Aquila on their chest indicates an excellence in all things, it is after all the Emperors heraldry. In that case why Fulgrim does not become the Warmaster - if they are so better at everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 In that case why Fulgrim does not become the Warmaster - if they are so better at everything? Because they have neither the numbers to take everything on the same scale nor the tally of compliance's to do what the Emperor wants, which is to conquer worlds. It's not some great mystery as to why the Sons of Horus were chosen to lead, and it had nothing to do with executing perfect battles. Perfect battles are not what the Emperor wanted, he wanted a legion whose scale of victories grew to such proportions that they could be the driving heart of the Great Crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 In that case why Fulgrim does not become the Warmaster - if they are so better at everything? Because they have neither the numbers to take everything on the same scale nor the tally of compliance's to do what the Emperor wants, which is to conquer worlds. It's not some great mystery as to why the Sons of Horus were chosen to lead, and it had nothing to do with executing perfect battles. Perfect battles are not what the Emperor wanted, he wanted a legion whose scale of victories grew to such proportions that they could be the driving heart of the Great Crusade. ' whose scale of victories grew to such proportions that they could be the driving heart of the Great Crusade.' - on that I can totally agree. On everything else - well Fulgrim did wish he was Horus ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 In that case why Fulgrim does not become the Warmaster - if they are so better at everything? Because they have neither the numbers to take everything on the same scale nor the tally of compliance's to do what the Emperor wants, which is to conquer worlds. It's not some great mystery as to why the Sons of Horus were chosen to lead, and it had nothing to do with executing perfect battles. Perfect battles are not what the Emperor wanted, he wanted a legion whose scale of victories grew to such proportions that they could be the driving heart of the Great Crusade. ' whose scale of victories grew to such proportions that they could be the driving heart of the Great Crusade.' - on that I can totally agree. On everything else - well Fulgrim did wish he was Horus Horus wondered if Sanguinuius would be a better warmaster, does that mean he would be? The Sons of Horus did not have a warrior cult dedicated to slaying foes in a single strike, nor did they obsess over winning victories others would find impossible. Does that make the Sons of Horus the worse Legion? No, of course not, they were the best legion by the standards of the Great Crusade. Best =/= Perfectionist though, it doesn't even mean the most powerful, a title which firmly goes to the Ultramarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Heritor, you keep ignoring what Loesh said... he's not saying they are better at everything, and he specifically said what they were (extremely proficient and creating perfect plans) wasn't what the Emperor wanted. Stop being so dense. Basically, it's that "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later." And clearly they did something better than every other legion, the Emperor gave them an honor no one else had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 'The Sons of Horus did not have a warrior cult dedicated to slaying foes in a single strike, nor did they obsess over winning victories others would find impossible. Does that make the Sons of Horus the worse Legion? No, of course not, they were the best legion by the standards of the Great Crusade. Best =/= Perfectionist though, it doesn't even mean the most powerful, a title which firmly goes to the Ultramarines. ' - and I totally agree with that too. 'And clearly they did something better than every other legion, the Emperor gave them an honor no one else had. ' - ahh and that's the reason why I'm disagreeing with Loesh. Cause due to the different reasons (one of them Fulgrim being a Dorian Gray story) - we never saw WHY THE EMPEROR gave them an honor no one else had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 'The Sons of Horus did not have a warrior cult dedicated to slaying foes in a single strike, nor did they obsess over winning victories others would find impossible. Does that make the Sons of Horus the worse Legion? No, of course not, they were the best legion by the standards of the Great Crusade. Best =/= Perfectionist though, it doesn't even mean the most powerful, a title which firmly goes to the Ultramarines. ' - and I totally agree with that too. 'And clearly they did something better than every other legion, the Emperor gave them an honor no one else had. ' - ahh and that's the reason why I'm disagreeing with Loesh. Cause due to the different reasons (one of them Fulgrim being a Dorian Gray story) - we never saw WHY THE EMPEROR gave them an honor no one else had Wasnt it for the victory over the xeno that nobody figured could be stopped, while they soaked up massive losses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 'The Sons of Horus did not have a warrior cult dedicated to slaying foes in a single strike, nor did they obsess over winning victories others would find impossible. Does that make the Sons of Horus the worse Legion? No, of course not, they were the best legion by the standards of the Great Crusade. Best =/= Perfectionist though, it doesn't even mean the most powerful, a title which firmly goes to the Ultramarines. ' - and I totally agree with that too. 'And clearly they did something better than every other legion, the Emperor gave them an honor no one else had. ' - ahh and that's the reason why I'm disagreeing with Loesh. Cause due to the different reasons (one of them Fulgrim being a Dorian Gray story) - we never saw WHY THE EMPEROR gave them an honor no one else had Wasnt it for the victory over the xeno that nobody figured could be stopped, while they soaked up massive losses? Fought cause of Fulgrim stubborness, you mean that one? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Wasnt it for the victory over the xeno that nobody figured could be stopped, while they soaked up massive losses? It was after the Proximan Betrayal that the Emperor's Children Legion was granted the exclusive right to bear the Palatine Aquila, the Emperor's personal standard, in its own heraldry. This honour was bought in blood as the Legion's XVIth Cohort, assigned to the Proxima compliance ceremonies and honour guard, fought and died to the last warrior alongside the Legio Custodes, never giving ground during the insurrectionist surprise attack on the ceremonial plaza. By their sacrifice was the wounded Emperor, who had suffered injury by the use of a Vortex weapon, bought time to recover and fight his way clear of the insurrectionist trap. In recognition of this, the standard of the Palatine Aquila so fiercely fought for that day was given to them by the Emperor's own hand, to be their relic ever after, along with the right to end the Proxima revolt by Exterminatus and so repay the blood that was owed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 'The Sons of Horus did not have a warrior cult dedicated to slaying foes in a single strike, nor did they obsess over winning victories others would find impossible. Does that make the Sons of Horus the worse Legion? No, of course not, they were the best legion by the standards of the Great Crusade. Best =/= Perfectionist though, it doesn't even mean the most powerful, a title which firmly goes to the Ultramarines. ' - and I totally agree with that too. 'And clearly they did something better than every other legion, the Emperor gave them an honor no one else had. ' - ahh and that's the reason why I'm disagreeing with Loesh. Cause due to the different reasons (one of them Fulgrim being a Dorian Gray story) - we never saw WHY THE EMPEROR gave them an honor no one else had Wasnt it for the victory over the xeno that nobody figured could be stopped, while they soaked up massive losses? The Emperors Children were awarded the Palatine Aqulia after saving the Emperor's life in the Proximan Betrayal, where a group of Imperial rebels tried to slay him with Vortex weaponry in an ambush though they always had an exemplary record before and after. I'd also say that while yes: The Laer were fought in part because of Fulgrims stubborness, it's not like many of the other Primarchs(Horus included) tolerated any sort of aberration, the Imperium considered tolerating them because it though the Laer would be near unbreakable...which the Third proved they were not. In fact i'd argue Fulgrim was a good deal less stubborn then most Primarchs, while Eldrads warning failed it was delivered to him in part because the Third Legion wouldn't just blow them up on sight as many other Imperial forces would. The losses according to the old fluff were around 700 space marines with 4,200 wounded, which would probably have a 0 tac'd on with the new legion numbers...which honestly considering the Dark Angels last 50,000 marines in one campaign to save the Northern Imperium I think is not even that bad. Also: HeritorA you keep commenting on Fulgrim being a Dorian Grey story but you never elaborate why the similarities are bad, or even why they might actually hinder the plot. As I said before, A Thousand Sons had me wince more often then Fulgrim did with the Dorian Grey undertones that I barely even notice until they come up in discussion. Imitation or not, that indicates at least a little bit more subtly then several Black Library books, no? Wasnt it for the victory over the xeno that nobody figured could be stopped, while they soaked up massive losses? It was after the Proximan Betrayal that the Emperor's Children Legion was granted the exclusive right to bear the Palatine Aquila, the Emperor's personal standard, in its own heraldry. This honour was bought in blood as the Legion's XVIth Cohort, assigned to the Proxima compliance ceremonies and honour guard, fought and died to the last warrior alongside the Legio Custodes, never giving ground during the insurrectionist surprise attack on the ceremonial plaza. By their sacrifice was the wounded Emperor, who had suffered injury by the use of a Vortex weapon, bought time to recover and fight his way clear of the insurrectionist trap. In recognition of this, the standard of the Palatine Aquila so fiercely fought for that day was given to them by the Emperor's own hand, to be their relic ever after, along with the right to end the Proxima revolt by Exterminatus and so repay the blood that was owed them. Gah! slightly too slow. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. Well...it sounded like you were saying that the EC's MO was to execute flawless/near-flawless victories with barely any EC casualties...on a very regular basis. If true, that would make the EC massively more efficient than other legions The SoH still take substantial losses in a number of tough campaigns. They have the most compliances...but as far as I can tell, they're not massively more efficient than other legions. They buy their victories with blood, sweat, and tears. I can buy that the EC are very meticulous, detail-oriented planners. That is both a virtue and a vice. This double-edged sword would be in line with the characters of other legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. Well...it sounded like you were saying that the EC's MO was to execute flawless/near-flawless victories with barely any EC casualties...on a very regular basis. If true, that would make the EC massively more efficient than other legions The SoH still take substantial losses in a number of tough campaigns. They have the most compliances...but as far as I can tell, they're not massively more efficient than other legions. They buy their victories with blood, sweat, and tears. I can buy that the EC are very meticulous, detail-oriented planners. That is both a virtue and a vice. This double-edged sword would be in line with the characters of other legions. You mean they were before Fulgrim ascension 'Also: HeritorA you keep commenting on Fulgrim being a Dorian Grey story but you never elaborate why the similarities are bad, or even why they might actually hinder the plot. As I said before, A Thousand Sons had me wince more often then Fulgrim did with the Dorian Grey undertones that I barely even notice until they come up in discussion. Imitation or not, that indicates at least a little bit more subtly then several Black Library books, no?' - yes TS has a lot of cliche and links to other 'stories', but Fulgrim almost pinpointing Dorian Gray stuff with every Fulgrim stage appearance. Especially then his sword makes decisions. The painting scene is just the top of an iceberg, which sank 'Titanic' P.S. A lot of people on a web whining that A D-B take some scenes in ToH from 'Alexander the Great' and it would have been truth, if he copied the rootes of it. But he did it magnificently and it's fresh and awesome. So to them - I simply don't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. Well...it sounded like you were saying that the EC's MO was to execute flawless/near-flawless victories with barely any EC casualties...on a very regular basis. If true, that would make the EC massively more efficient than other legions The SoH still take substantial losses in a number of tough campaigns. They have the most compliances...but as far as I can tell, they're not massively more efficient than other legions. They buy their victories with blood, sweat, and tears. I can buy that the EC are very meticulous, detail-oriented planners. That is both a virtue and a vice. This double-edged sword would be in line with the characters of other legions. They did it often enough to build a reputation out of it, but no legion came out of the Great Crusade unscathed. It's just when outnumbered and outgunned the EC had a habit of pulling off wins that were impressive, grand enough to get more widespread imperial recognition then a lot of other legions. Sons of Horus are kind of in a weird spot fluffwise: From the long view they are stated to objectively be the best Legion in fluff with the best Primarch who was making the Emperor the proudest of his achievements, but much like Abaddon the Despoiler the catch is that you actually have to show they are the best and why, when we actually have a lot of fluff that casts doubt on it for the sake of nuance(I.E Wondering if Sanguinus may of been a better Warmaster, Battle of Gate Forty Two where the Raven Guard were all intents and purposes exploited by a glory hounding Sons of Horus, etc) their tactics of spearing the throat of the enemy doesn't even seem that unique when compared to the other Legions. It's been a tough sell. why didn't the Sons of Horus just replace most of the Legions too? They were considered hands down the the most efficiently devastating legions when it came to what the Emperor valued most, which was not being perfect battle planner, or psychically superior, or building an enormous mini-empire, but rather having the largest tallies of compliance over all else. Well...it sounded like you were saying that the EC's MO was to execute flawless/near-flawless victories with barely any EC casualties...on a very regular basis. If true, that would make the EC massively more efficient than other legions The SoH still take substantial losses in a number of tough campaigns. They have the most compliances...but as far as I can tell, they're not massively more efficient than other legions. They buy their victories with blood, sweat, and tears. I can buy that the EC are very meticulous, detail-oriented planners. That is both a virtue and a vice. This double-edged sword would be in line with the characters of other legions. You mean they were before Fulgrim ascension 'Also: HeritorA you keep commenting on Fulgrim being a Dorian Grey story but you never elaborate why the similarities are bad, or even why they might actually hinder the plot. As I said before, A Thousand Sons had me wince more often then Fulgrim did with the Dorian Grey undertones that I barely even notice until they come up in discussion. Imitation or not, that indicates at least a little bit more subtly then several Black Library books, no?' - yes TS has a lot of cliche and links to other 'stories', but Fulgrim almost pinpointing Dorian Gray stuff with every Fulgrim stage appearance. Especially then his sword makes decisions. The painting scene is just the top of an iceberg, which sank 'Titanic' P.S. A lot of people on a web whining that A D-B take some scenes in ToH from 'Alexander the Great' and it would have been truth, if he copied the rootes of it. But he did it magnificently and it's fresh and awesome. So to them - I simply don't care I'v never noticed any real overt links to Dorian Grey besides the painting(Which is subverted in Reflection Crack'd anyway.) and the Sword of Lear maybe being a Lord Henry expy? But it's such a tenuous link even then that I felt it was hardly intrusive. By contrast my problem with A Thousand Sons is not that it has any direct story links I find particularly annoying, it's that it will do things like literally grind the story to a halt for a couple pages to explain that Horus's name means traitor due to some kind of ancient legend. It doesn't add anything to me except give me an urge to skip a few pages past the hamhandedness, at least with Fulgrims interactions with the sculptors and artists of Le Fenice I could see the progressive slide of his corruption take root and the emotional toll it's taking on him as a Primarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 By contrast my problem with A Thousand Sons is not that it has any direct story links I find particularly annoying, it's that it will do things like literally grind the story to a halt for a couple pages to explain that Horus's name means traitor due to some kind of ancient legend. It doesn't add anything to me except give me an urge to skip a few pages past the hamhandedness, at least with Fulgrims interactions with the sculptors and artists of Le Fenice I could see the progressive slide of his corruption take root and the emotional toll it's taking on him as a Primarch. That's a trope in a lot of historical fiction (and that's ultimately what 40K is, stories from a future history) but I know what you mean. Not in those specific examples, but in general - in some novels I find those moments to be the best bits of spice in whatever I'm reading, and in others they drag me off the page and make me wince. And I honestly couldn't pin down what it is about it that works for me sometimes, and doesn't others. I guess "subtlety" as a general rule, but even that's not always true. Sometimes the most brazen or bare bones examples are the most effective, or subvert the trope in clever ways. I am intrigued by your points, sir, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 By contrast my problem with A Thousand Sons is not that it has any direct story links I find particularly annoying, it's that it will do things like literally grind the story to a halt for a couple pages to explain that Horus's name means traitor due to some kind of ancient legend. It doesn't add anything to me except give me an urge to skip a few pages past the hamhandedness, at least with Fulgrims interactions with the sculptors and artists of Le Fenice I could see the progressive slide of his corruption take root and the emotional toll it's taking on him as a Primarch. That's a trope in a lot of historical fiction (and that's ultimately what 40K is, stories from a future history) but I know what you mean. Not in those specific examples, but in general - in some novels I find those moments to be the best bits of spice in whatever I'm reading, and in others they drag me off the page and make me wince. And I honestly couldn't pin down what it is about it that works for me sometimes, and doesn't others. I guess "subtlety" as a general rule, but even that's not always true. Sometimes the most brazen or bare bones examples are the most effective, or subvert the trope in clever ways. I am intrigued by your points, sir, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I bow before your wisdom true master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 By contrast my problem with A Thousand Sons is not that it has any direct story links I find particularly annoying, it's that it will do things like literally grind the story to a halt for a couple pages to explain that Horus's name means traitor due to some kind of ancient legend. It doesn't add anything to me except give me an urge to skip a few pages past the hamhandedness, at least with Fulgrims interactions with the sculptors and artists of Le Fenice I could see the progressive slide of his corruption take root and the emotional toll it's taking on him as a Primarch. That's a trope in a lot of historical fiction (and that's ultimately what 40K is, stories from a future history) but I know what you mean. Not in those specific examples, but in general - in some novels I find those moments to be the best bits of spice in whatever I'm reading, and in others they drag me off the page and make me wince. And I honestly couldn't pin down what it is about it that works for me sometimes, and doesn't others. I guess "subtlety" as a general rule, but even that's not always true. Sometimes the most brazen or bare bones examples are the most effective, or subvert the trope in clever ways. I am intrigued by your points, sir, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I think for me it was just the delivery, it's done a lot in other books as well. But there's a casual mention, or a similar scene in a battlefield that resembles greek mythos, but actually sitting me down and describing it to the nuance feels a bit too much like spoonfeeding the information and sucks me out of the immersion. I like leaving it just vague enough for someone to mentally put it together, but without having to disconnect from the universe to do so. It's like if Argal Tal had a scene in Betrayer where he stopped Khârn and said "Hey, did you know that your name means Betrayer? And that person earlier called you The Betrayer? so that makes you Betrayer the Betrayer, I bet at some point you're going to betray us lol." it'd be just a hair away from adding "Hey, hey reader, did you also know...this book is called Betrayer too? It's about betrayal you see." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 It's just when outnumbered and outgunned the EC had a habit of pulling off wins that were impressive, grand enough to get more widespread imperial recognition then a lot of other legions. I did not get this impression from reading Betrayal...but then again, it's been four years. Might as well re-read. Path of Heaven has more interested in the EC nowadays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 It's just when outnumbered and outgunned the EC had a habit of pulling off wins that were impressive, grand enough to get more widespread imperial recognition then a lot of other legions. I did not get this impression from reading Betrayal...but then again, it's been four years. Might as well re-read. Path of Heaven has more interested in the EC nowadays It varies, some of the novels point out the reputation to the greater imperium as artisans of war, champions for the common people to aspire to, some see them as self serving glory hogs or inbred nobility parading about as soldiers. Neither one is particularly wrong as per the nature of 40k, there's shades of it. It's also worth noting that from the standpoint of each imperial it's going to vary a lot, some people would stab each other to stand in the shadow of a Third Legionnaire, or a Dark Angel, or an Ultramarine. Others, most prominently their other Astartes brothers, might see them as hogging the spotlight, or offer only grudging respect, it is after all the nature of the Legions and their Primarchs to be competitive with one another. That ambiguity over how you can look at a legion is why I liked the Imperium Secundus arc so much, personally I never had any doubt that Roboute was doing what he was doing for the greater good of the Imperium. But seeing their suspicions over a brother Legion who from a certain angle came off as more then a little shady and the debate in forums and among lore groups over what he was 'really up to' and why was invigorating. I look forward to seeing the post Terra interactions with the Primarchs to see how things boil over then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 It's just when outnumbered and outgunned the EC had a habit of pulling off wins that were impressive, grand enough to get more widespread imperial recognition then a lot of other legions. I did not get this impression from reading Betrayal...but then again, it's been four years. Might as well re-read. Path of Heaven has more interested in the EC nowadays Time change things. That's why the stuff from first 20 HH books would be a little 'outdated' now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Remember that time Khârn the betrayer was screaming about the Eightfold Path before anyone even knew what Chaos was? I don't, that never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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