Super-Heavies/Baneblades worth it?

[Indefragable]

Hey gang,

 

I am toying around with the idea of replacing a good chunk of my current go-to list with a Stormsword (Baneblade variant). The way I see it, having such a major threat will greatly aid me both offensively and defensively. 

 

In any case, with all the D-weaponry going around, not to mention the new Space Marine Psychic powers which feature a table that is basically all Haywire or using your own weapons to shoot you....is it worth investing in a Super Heavy at this point in the game? 

 

Personally, it is purely a gameplay decision for me. I really have no opinion on the fluff or modeling opportunity at all. It's just another big tank, IMO, for better and worse. 

 

 

For Perspective this is how I would be using it:

 

 

Imperial Guard Combined Arms Detachment 1985pts

 

NO FORCE ORG

Ministorum Priest

 

Ministorum Priest

 

Ministorum Priest

 

Primaris Psyker

--ML2

 

 

Primaris Psyker

--ML2

 

HQ:

Knight Commander Pask

--Command Leman Russ Punisher

----Hull: Heavy Bolter

----Sponsons: Heavy Bolters

----Dozer Blade

----Camo Netting

--Leman Russ Punisher

----Hull: Heavy Bolter

----Sponsons: Heavy Bolters

----Dozer Blade

 

TROOPS:

Infantry Platoon

--Platoon Command Squad

--Infantry Squad

--Infantry Squad

--Conscripts x 50

 

Veteran Squad

--Carapace Armor

--Melta gun x 3

--Vox-Caster

Chimera

--Turret: Multi-Laser

--Hull: Heavy Bolter

--Dozer Blade

 

Veteran Squad

--Carapace Armor

--Melta gun x 3

--Vox-Caster

Chimera

--Turret: Multi-Laser

--Hull: Heavy Bolter

--Dozer Blade

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Wyvern

 

Wyvern

 

LORD OF WAR

Stormsword

--2x Pairs of Lascannon Turrets (so is that 2x Twin-Linked or 4x seperate Lascannons?)

--4x Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter

 

Punishers and Wyverns go for infantry.

Stormsword and Melta Vets go for AT

Conscript-bomb (2-3x MP, 1-2x Primarii) forms a human wall in front of vehicles

Infantry squads either spread out in rear to prevent Drop Pods from hitting rear armor, or grab objectives as battliefield conditions allow

 

Edit: added list

[WarriorFish]

They could probably benefit from a bit of a points drop maybe given what the game has now but they will always be a lot of eggs in a basket unless you're looking at 2,000pts and above. You buy a pair of sponsons, so that's a total of four sponsons - each with a lascannon and twin-linked heavy bolter.

It tends to dictate the game somewhat both in what you and your opponent do, so be prepared to have to spend some points protecting it (like your infantry). Squeezing a Techpriest in to keep it trucking isn't a bad idea in my experience, makes it harder for your opponent to deal with if it keeps regenerating hull points

There are several variants so it's up to what you feel your list needs. They can do nasty things though, the Storm sword will make a lot of things cry letting the rest of your army focus elsewhere. So I think it comes down to your normal points level you play at, so you can get good value from putting it on the table lots. I would say try to keep other units cheaper to support the investment, so probably no Pask.

[Indefragable]

They could probably benefit from a bit of a points drop maybe given what the game has now but they will always be a lot of eggs in a basket unless you're looking at 2,000pts and above. You buy a pair of sponsons, so that's a total of four sponsons - each with a lascannon and twin-linked heavy bolter.

It tends to dictate the game somewhat both in what you and your opponent do, so be prepared to have to spend some points protecting it (like your infantry). Squeezing a Techpriest in to keep it trucking isn't a bad idea in my experience, makes it harder for your opponent to deal with if it keeps regenerating hull points

There are several variants so it's up to what you feel your list needs. They can do nasty things though, the Storm sword will make a lot of things cry letting the rest of your army focus elsewhere. So I think it comes down to your normal points level you play at, so you can get good value from putting it on the table lots. I would say try to keep other units cheaper to support the investment, so probably no Pask.

My meta tends to feature quite a bit of ruins, and players who know how to make the most of them. So the Ignores Cover really appeals to me, even at the expense of range. There is an Iron Warriors player with a Typhon, and let me tell you, being on the receiving end of large S10 AP1 Ignores Cover blasts is just about as game-changing of an effect as you can have.

The reason I am considering Pask as well is because he is a beast of a threat all his own. He is normally the thing the enemy goes all-out killing as soon as possible. His range is the only thing not to like. Pask and the Stormsword feed off each other, being AV14 high-value threats to worry about.

I do like the idea of an Enginseer.

Do you think there's still a viable use for them? Or with all the Haywire and D weaponry going around they are too easy to kill these days?

[WarriorFish]

A lot depends on your meta of course, do people turn up with lots of AT already? Don't forget that the act of taking a SH will shift your meta as well when people start adapting to deal with it. Though it sounds like your opponents are already breaking out the bit guns so why shouldn't you? The Stormsword is one of my top picks for the same reasons, ignoring cover with a big pie plate will ruin someone's day and 36" isn't that short a range in most cases :)

 

Such an investment requires protection and your Guardsmen can do that for a low fee. Harder to tackle SHs at range, and harder close up too if they are protected by additional elements - even a simple bubble wrap of troops makes a big difference against the likes of drop pods. With cheap weapons like flamers they can usually accomplish more than guarding your basket too :)

[greycat]

A hellhammer or stormsword sounds like the best bet for a dense terrain board. There is no problem that it cannot take care of with that str10 ignores cover.

 

I would get it regardless.

[duz_]

I want to run a baneblade of some description but outside of friendly games I don't think I can in its current iteration or this edition

 

GW missed the opportunity to give them all a good 100-150pt drop with the cadia supplement

 

couple that with how hull points and CC/haywire/S:D works this ed its a big gamble and point sink...

 

Toughness + invul + fnp >> hull points / AV this edition

 

Your best (most point efficient) option for a SH these days would be a knight

They have a 4++ and aren't affected in CC like vehicles being a walker

 

Fluffwise yeh a baneblade would be awesome and your list would work outside of a super competitive scene but if you want competitive id consider a knight first

 

Imho that is I personally prefer to run 2 knights competitively especially with my guard

[march10k]

Superheavies are, as FW says, a whole lot of eggs in one basket. That said, the only way to make them come close to being worth the investment is to pile in more points. What sounds like a better investment, a volcano cannon for 455 points, or a volcano cannon, four lascannons, and five twinlinked heavy bolters, all independently targetable and immune to "weapon destroyed" for 565? That's just using my shadowsword as an example, but it pretty much holds true no matter what variant you have. 50 points for two lascannons and two twinlinked heavy bolters is a steal. They should probably drop the base tanks 50 points each and raise the cost of the sponsons to 60 a pair...

That said, I'm 2-0-1 when fielding my shadowsword. One game was conceded at the midpoint of turn two, though, and the other was basically won around the same time, although we played it out to the end. Both wins were in "bring out all the cheese" games (one at 1000 points) in a local league, so take those with plenty of salt (565 point model in a 1000 point game with no FOC, I paired it with jink-ignoring skyfire railsides, lol). The draw was acutally a regular 1850 point game, and it's the only time my guard haven't lost to the current incarnation of daemons...their ability to spam what feels like an extra thousand points every turn just defeats me. Anyway, that game was "relic," and the shadowsword died on the bottom of turn 5, killing the relic bearer, wherupon the game promptly ended. Had it not ended, I might well have been tabled. As it was, I had first blood, he had linebreaker, and both the great unclean one and pask were still alive. That player was irate, to say the least, his cheese had never failed to crush with its three flying nurgle princes and the great unclean one. I think I took a total of two wounds off of the four of them

As for D weapons...in three games, my volcano cannon has never rolled a 6, so...D is sufficiently nerfed as to not affect the game. Cover-ignoring S10 is way better! As such, you should not treat the presence of D as a reason not to field a baneblade variant...except for those reaper chainswords. Melee D weapons are pretty much broken. They generate enough attacks that it's hard not to get a 6. As opposed to a gun that gets a single chance at that 6. So if you do field a superheavy, bubble-wrap it with cheap troops...and maybe park a rhinoload of repentia next to it. Massed eviscerators make short work of kaniggitz.

[WarriorFish]

As for D weapons...in three games, my volcano cannon has never rolled a 6, so...D is sufficiently nerfed as to not affect the game.  Cover-ignoring S10 is way better!  As such, you should not treat the presence of D as a reason not to field a baneblade variant...

This is worth repeating, D weaponry isn't all that terrifying unless you can generate plenty of rolls/chances with it.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm a sucker for walkers, so I have a special place in my heart for knights. I'm really tempted to get the renegades box, and build 2 more knights from it, to fill out my Knight house.

 

Knights have a special place in the arena of superheavies, they bring enough firepower to the table to be worthy of the type, and they can hold their own in melee, which means that no super smashy thing is going to take it down in CC unopposed.

 

Now that's just a thought, I too love the baneblades, and I really want one, however, they are guard only, which can be a bit of a bummer, while knights can be taken in any Imperial army.

[greycat]

Knights are all around better as an addition to your army. Baneblades and varients suffer from being easy to destroy in close combat and the inability to deal enough damage to tough targets like knights. Knights can get a turn two charge against baneblades which means it has the upper hand.

 

Against infantry however the large blasts wreak havok among the enemy. So it is usually up to my baneblade to kill infantry while my infantry kills knights

[march10k]

Knights are better for killing expensive targets. One. At. A. Time.  

 

Superheavies are better for just mowing stuff down like there's no tomorrow.  With all ten weapons (both sets of sponsons, plus 10 points for a hull TLHB), you should be killing 2-3 units a turn. 

 

Sure, a knight's reaper chainsword will slice and dice a superheavy pretty fast...that's because it gets 3-4 D weapon attacks per turn.  Head to head, the knight wins.  But against third parties, the superheavy will lay low more of the emprah's foes.  The question is, what are you taking a stupidly expensive model for?  That will inform your decision about which one to field.  Personally?  I have a shadowsword because:APOC, but for 40k, Hellhammer with all the bells and whistles is the way to go.

[duz_]

Its fairly safe to assume that if you're in a position to take a baneblade someone has taken a knight

So why take a knife to a gun fight?

[Emicus]

How about both a knight and a baneblade or equivalent?:) isn't the triple superheavies formation from the campaign book stand-alone?

 

Throw in a knight house and go to town..

[Pablo Benigno]

I love my Malcador Infernus with the big poisoned 2+ AP2 template. It's not very expensive, and kills infantry pretty well. Add a Knight and you have a good tandem ;D

[duz_]

How about both a knight and a baneblade or equivalent?:) isn't the triple superheavies formation from the campaign book stand-alone?

 

Throw in a knight house and go to town..

That would be fun

Id give that a shot just to see my opponents face

 

Meanwhile its like the emperor read my mind...

 

https://regimental-standard.com/2016/04/20/walk-with-giants/

[Truesight]

I'll just throw this out there, I've been kinda down on the damage output of superheavies, but they are getting a new lease on life with the Phase form power from the Librarius conclave.

 

A Baneblade that doesn't need line of sight (even completely out of sight) firing ignores cover S9 AP2 10'' blasts as well as demolisher blasts, lascannon and heavy bolters ignoring cover at any unit on the board.... now that's interesting.

[Indefragable]

I'll just throw this out there, I've been kinda down on the damage output of superheavies, but they are getting a new lease on life with the Phase form power from the Librarius conclave.

 

A Baneblade that doesn't need line of sight (even completely out of sight) firing ignores cover S9 AP2 10'' blasts as well as demolisher blasts, lascannon and heavy bolters ignoring cover at any unit on the board.... now that's interesting.

 

That is a really good point. My concern would be the success rate of fishing for that power since I, personally, am not wowed by Geokinesis as a whole. Ok, while we're on the subject:

 

Chasm: force dangerous terrain test on enemy without armor save. Ok I guess. 

Earth Blood: friendly non-vehicle model in 18" immediately regains D3 Wounds. Probably best for keeping allied Conclave alive, since there's not many multi-wound models for IG. If it worked on a unit, then unkillable Bullgryns would be interesting. 

Scorched Earth: pick a point, enemy units within 6" take S5AP4 hit and everything within 6" is dangerous terrain. Meh. 

Land Quake: 18" malediction on enemy. Enemy is considered in dangerous terrain and cannot run, turbo-boost, or flat out. Hmmm. That's actually pretty useful for delaying that WAAAAAGH Charge just one more turn (until the Astartes arrive to steal all the glory...)

Phase Form: mentiond above, 24" blessing gives single friendly unit  Move Through Cover, Ignores Cover, does not require Line of Sight for Shooting attacks. In the words of Austin Powers: "Yeah, baby!" 

Warp Quake: 24" building gets glancing or penetrating hit. If targeting a ruin, units inside get D6 S6 AP- hits. Meh-kay.

Shifting Worldscape. WC3. 24" Move a piece of terrain by 24", including models in it. Max out a single Infantry Platoon with 5x Infantry Squads, 5x HWTs, 3x SWT's and fly them around the board like some kind of Flying Fortress of Laputa. Who care if you win, your enemy's face when he sees this is worth it. 

[march10k]

I'll just throw this out there, I've been kinda down on the damage output of superheavies,

Clearly, you're not doing it right

You have to keep in mind that it's not just offensive output that costs points, survivability is expensive, too! One primary and up to nine heavy weapons (or eight and a demolisher) pus nine AV14 HPs for ~550 points is actually a steal. OTOH, if you go cheap and get, for example, a shadowsword with no upgrades, you basically overpaid for a demolisher with triple hull points

[WarriorFish]

At first glance SHs may seem a little more mundane compared to other fancy things that have appeared since but as march says it's about the whole package. Plus even with the more humble Baneblade cannon that's still incredibly dangerous to "standard" units. You've seen the size of the pie plate it fires and the stats right? That's mean, it evaporates entire squads and squadrons! It's all about picking the right SH for your needs :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I quite like the Infernus, if only because that Chem Cannon is just silly. My Baneblade regularly struggled to get decent targets, and given the amount of tough stuff out there these days, it just failed to really put the hurt down on anything. A real pity we can't buy Veteran Crew for it or something, as BS4 would help it out a bit.

 

In an Apocalypse game, the whole trio of superheavies comes out to play, because I have to justify spending all that money somehow. :P

[CaptainHelion]

I played a game against my mate's Space Wolves once, where we decided to up the points at the last minute cause he wanted to run his Thunderwolves deathstar. So I popped my Hellhammer down, and I was still down about 180 or so points, but we didn't mind.

First turn, I landed the Demolisher cannon and the Hellhammer Cannon square on the Thunderwolves, and they just evaporated. 3++ saves saved some of them from the first cannon, but even with the stormshields, I think only two of them survived. Eight hundred points of deathstar gone after they'd barely managed to scoot up the board. In one salvo.

So yeah, I reckon Guard superheavies are worth it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Haha, wish I had that kind of like against Thunderwolves.

[CaptainHelion]

A pair of S10 large (or bigger) blasts will wreck all but the luckiest of Stormshield Thunderwolves. Being able to simultaneously double out the T5 AND force a bunch of saves is probably the biggest factor.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, I had a taskforce of Manticores and Demolishers specifically  for that. They got one shot off before they were being punched to death. That's just me, though, and they went first so they were 24" in by the end of Turn 1. Lucky saves meant that they were 36" in at the start of turn two, or right on the edge of my Deployment. They ate the Guardsman Platoon I left out for them in a turn, then started hammering the tanks to bits.

 

All that was left by the end of Turn 4 was a Vendetta pulling some ridiculous maneuvers to pop off Lascannon shots and ultimately failing to do anything.

[greycat]

I run both my super heavy tanks in 1500pts sometimes. Baneblade and stormlord, 2x CCS 4x vets. I have about 30 points to spare so usually 3 autocannons for those squads in the storm lord.

 

Fully bound superheavy company. It's heaps of fun to run and usually does quite well although its not nearly the OP build people think it is when I first put it down on the table.