IG Codex Wish List

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I do think an open-topped Taurox-esque vehicle would be useful as the cheapest transport in the game. Maybe 25-30pts. AV10, 2HP, open-topped, capacity of 12+. The whole point is that they are cheap, mass produced and are meant to get a squad from point-A to point B (in one piece is optional).

I think basic tauroxes should be open topped, with the option to enclose them, and be base costed at 35 points. They should also have the option to become fast, so you can flat out them farther. Having them open topped would be good because you could put a squad of full on melta vets, and drive them around, and all 3 get to shoot out, instead of just 2.

 

 

2) Chimeras desperately need an adjustment with any of the possible options:

--a price drop down to 50ish pts

--more weaponry options such as Autocannons, Lascannons, missile launchers, etc...

--AV12 on both Front and Sides

Himeras are more or less fine as is. An option to buy BS4 would be nice, and base cost 55 points as they were in 5E. Autocannons are available through IA1.2, for 5 points, and you don't need the ABG  to do that either. Using the same rules, Hydras ignore jink again, so that's a plus. I think lascannons would be wasted on the chimera, as you;d start getting into a proper tank at that point, autocannons, TL HB, Heavy bolters, heavy flamers, and multilasers are all good options for the chimera, since those weapons are for supporting the infantry they carry.

 

 

3) gigantic people-mover transport, perhaps in a LoW slot. Aesthetically I am thinking something like the Jawa Sandcrawler (boxier and covered in brass Aquilas, in typical Imperial Fashion) or on that scale. Everything the IG does is large-scale and a huge transport with a 50+ capacity would make sense as well. I think FW has one called Mastadon? I think there are Baneblade-chassis transport variants as well.

Thing is that's already available from GW in the form of the Stromlord variant of the baneblade, and from FW in the forms of the Gorgon, and Crassius. That's why I went smaller, something that could be conceivably had for 150-200 ish points as a dedicated transport, not a LoW, because you on;y get one of those in a CAD, so it should be used wisely.

[duz_]

So here's another one for thought

 

Does the humble lasgun need a boost? Is it not currently the lowest strength standard gun across the galaxy? (I'm ignoring cultists autoguns because heretics... )

 

I based this on my experience trying to outgun Tau. Their Base weapon is 30" S5/AP5. Given they are almost the xenos equivalent of the guard shouldn't we have something a bit stornger? Even orks have S4 base weapons.

[Indefragable]

The lasgun will always be S3 because the SM need something to make their S4 bolters look big and tough. Honestly, lasguns will never be better than S3 for that very reason.

 

...which, honestly, would be fine in-and-of-itself if the game mirrored the fluff and 85% of Imperial players played Guard and you saw Space Marines once a year or something like that. But alas, the state of the actual game is almost the opposite. Problem #1.

 

S3 wouldn't be awful in a vacuum, but the other big issue is the power creep where everything is becoming AP2-at-initiative and what not. The Guard and their iconic lasguns are getting left behind. Problem #2

 

Problem #3 is the cost of IG infantry models themselves. You need roughly 20-30x Guardsmen to have parity with a 10-man Tactical Squad. A box of 10x Tacticals is ~$43.00 USD. A box of 10x Cadian Shock Troops is ~$29.00. And that's not even counting the mandatory Platoon Command Squad (Command Squad box is ~$25.00). Do the math. You literally have to outspend your opponents in real world dollars to have a chance*.

 

So yes, when you put all 3 of the above together....lasguns are kaput. And I say that as one of their defenders. 

 

If any one of the above were to change, then they would have hope. #1 is never going to happen. #2 is HIGHLY unlikely unless 8th Edition somehow reboots the entire system as we currently know it. And #3....well....there's a snowball's chance that IG starts realizing this problem. 

 

So, how to "fix" taking those 3 into account? 

A) Laser weaponry in general needs some tweaking. It never made sense to me how las go from S3 AP- to S9 AP2, while the S6 version is only AP6. 

B) Play on the "endless numbers" angle and have a rule where for every x number of unsaved wounds caused by lasguns/pistols, the next volley gains +1S or AP is 1 better.

C) Add a "heavy lasgun" option for Veterans or such that's S4 AP6 Shred or something....that way you can still benefit from FRSRF

D) other ideas? 

 

*We are comparing apples-to-apples in terms of basic infantry/infantry weapons. Obviously Baneblades and Leman Russes are a different matter.

[duz_]

Yeh it always puzzled me the lasgun vs lascannon stats. Now the HSLG blurs the lines even more.

 

One thing that could help with 8th is if you didn't have to pay for upgrades just models. That way at least we wouldn't be paying the same for a plasma gun as marines to be more ineffectual and more likely to die from it.

 

Maybe they are willing to mix things up. Marines got cheaper and deathwatch just got assault heavy bolters.

 

Tbh I'd be happy with Shred having learnt from the wyvren that gets work done provided you have enough dice. Shred would be nice as an order though bit less OP. However OP seems in vogue right now.

[Indefragable]

Yeh it always puzzled me the lasgun vs lascannon stats. Now the HSLG blurs the lines even more.

 

One thing that could help with 8th is if you didn't have to pay for upgrades just models. That way at least we wouldn't be paying the same for a plasma gun as marines to be more ineffectual and more likely to die from it.

 

Maybe they are willing to mix things up. Marines got cheaper and deathwatch just got assault heavy bolters.

 

Tbh I'd be happy with Shred having learnt from the wyvren that gets work done provided you have enough dice. Shred would be nice as an order though bit less OP. However OP seems in vogue right now.

 

I would like to see Guardsmen go to 4pts a model instead of the current 5, and vets go to 5pts/ea instead of the current 6pts. Its a subtle difference that makes all the difference. Suddenly, a full Combined Squad of 5x Infantry Squads costs 200pts even instead of the current 250pts. Those 50pts go a LONG way to adding bite to the army as a whole. It would really help since IG is an army that needs large quantities...and 1 and 2 pt difference don't make a difference....unless you are buying in the kind of bulk IG needs to. 

 

Speaking of bulk....I dream about a Faction-wide rule such as this made-up one:

 

++++++

Deparmento Munitorum Supply Lines

An ancient earth general once said "the art of war is the art of logistics." The Departmento Munitorum is the branch of the Imperium that oversees the manufacture, acquisition, transport, and supply of all arms and goods to the various ends of the Imperial realm. As the single largest entity in the entire human-controlled galaxy, everything it does is massive in quantity. It is both easier and more common to find an entire pallet of lasguns than it is to acquire a single one.

 

All weapons and wargear purchased for units within the same Detachment cost half (rounded up) the listed amount when purchased in quantities of five. For example, a plasma pistol normally costs 15pts. If Joe upgrades each of the five sergeants in his infantry squads to have plasma pistols, then he would pay 38pts instead of the normal 75. Similiarly, if Joe has five Leman Russ Battle Tanks that he wants to add Hunter Killer missiles to, he would pay 25pts rather than the normal 50pts. 

++++++

 

That would (IMO) be a creative and fun way to recognize the fact that a Power Fist on a IG Sgt does NOT equal a Power Fist on a SM Sgt and thus should not cost the same amount. 

 

...or, you know, they could just lower the price on things overall. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I gotta be honest, there's aspects of Age of Sigmar I quite like, and one of them is how lightweight building armies is. To be honest, Guard are halfway there in terms of how they're structured. For example:

 

- Squads are bought in set increments, e.g., 5s, 10s, etc and have a minimum and maximum size. Your Guardsman squads would still be ten men, as would 

- The squads are the same stats apart from Leader, Musician and Banner, (Sergeant, Vox Caster?)

- Many times it takes a WYSIWYG approach, so for example you could take a Special Weapons Squad with Meltaguns, or Special Weapons Squad with Plasma guns. The points cost stays the same, but the statline could be tweaked to make it fair,

 

Tbh I've been considering writing up a hybrid game system for a while, so I might playtest it a bit with a friend and see if we can come up with something decent. Obviously not gunna be for everyone, but personally I'm finding 40K a bit clunky and awkward these days.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The thing about lasguns, is that they work well en masse. With FRF,SRF Even a naked vet squad can pump out 27 lasgun shots at 12", which is generally enough to kill off terminators. When you start adding special weapons, like plasma, your squad is still pumping out 18 lasgun shots at 12 inches, but is now also pumping out 6 plasma shots (provided none get hot). 18 saves is a still a lot of saves to make. I've seen wraiths die to this on several occasions, and they have a 3++.

 

Lasguns need numbers to work most effectively. To get around MEQ's and TEQ's with lasguns you need a lot of them.

 

Also, scientifically the jump from S3 to S6 to S9 and from AP- to AP6 to AP2 actually makes sense. Power output is an exponential curve, if you pump more power through more focusing apparatus, you get more heat and penetration.

 

I'd like for everyone to get their close combat weapon back. I think that the grenadiers doctrine should allow vets to replace their lasgun with a hotshot lasgun, and I'd like to see vets just get krak grenades (not as an upgrade, as part of their wargear).

[duz_]

Except to get to that 12" range a 5 man terminator squad would have had 1 or 2 rounds of S4/AP5 which would most likely wipe them out.

If lasguns 30" they'd get an extra round of shooting on them first before perishing to AP5 shots. They would also be toe and toe with tau for range at least.

[Indefragable]

Except to get to that 12" range a 5 man terminator squad would have had 1 or 2 rounds of S4/AP5 which would most likely wipe them out.

If lasguns 30" they'd get an extra round of shooting on them first before perishing to AP5 shots. They would also be toe and toe with tau for range at least.

 

Yea, but Eldar Shurikens (I think) are only 18". Eldar could say the same thing about us. Longer range than their opponents is kind of the Tau's shtick. Don't want to take that away from them, just because it's a shiner toy. 

 

I think the "way" for IG is cheaper Infantry both in points and real world $. And more Orders of different varieties, like Fix Bayonets! (Rage, Counter-Attack, and Re-roll Charges until start of next Shooting phase), Hit the Deck! (can re-roll failed Cover Saves equal to or greater than model's Armor Save), and Ogryn, Smash! (Ogryns/Bullgryns only. Unit gains, well, Smash until start of controlling player's next Shooting phase). 

[CoffeeGrunt]

IMO it would be cool to see something like, say, "if 30 or more models fire Lasguns in the same Shooting Attack at the same Target Unit, they are resolved at Strength 4." Just something to represent that deluge of fire.

 

Lasguns do work well en masse, but crikey rolling that many dice can be tedious.

[duz_]

 

 

Except to get to that 12" range a 5 man terminator squad would have had 1 or 2 rounds of S4/AP5 which would most likely wipe them out.

If lasguns 30" they'd get an extra round of shooting on them first before perishing to AP5 shots. They would also be toe and toe with tau for range at least.

Yea, but Eldar Shurikens (I think) are only 18". Eldar could say the same thing about us. Longer range than their opponents is kind of the Tau's shtick. Don't want to take that away from them, just because it's a shiner toy.

 

I think the "way" for IG is cheaper Infantry both in points and real world $. And more Orders of different varieties, like Fix Bayonets! (Rage, Counter-Attack, and Re-roll Charges until start of next Shooting phase), Hit the Deck! (can re-roll failed Cover Saves equal to or greater than model's Armor Save), and Ogryn, Smash! (Ogryns/Bullgryns only. Unit gains, well, Smash until start of controlling player's next Shooting phase).

Yes but they're assault 2 pseudo rending. Not to mentioned their buffed stat line vs guard for a vet squad price.

[Indefragable]

 

 

Except to get to that 12" range a 5 man terminator squad would have had 1 or 2 rounds of S4/AP5 which would most likely wipe them out.

If lasguns 30" they'd get an extra round of shooting on them first before perishing to AP5 shots. They would also be toe and toe with tau for range at least.

Yea, but Eldar Shurikens (I think) are only 18". Eldar could say the same thing about us. Longer range than their opponents is kind of the Tau's shtick. Don't want to take that away from them, just because it's a shiner toy.

 

I think the "way" for IG is cheaper Infantry both in points and real world $. And more Orders of different varieties, like Fix Bayonets! (Rage, Counter-Attack, and Re-roll Charges until start of next Shooting phase), Hit the Deck! (can re-roll failed Cover Saves equal to or greater than model's Armor Save), and Ogryn, Smash! (Ogryns/Bullgryns only. Unit gains, well, Smash until start of controlling player's next Shooting phase).

Yes but they're assault 2 pseudo rending. Not to mentioned their buffed stat line vs guard for a vet squad price.

 

 

Yes...but do we want to play Chess, where both sides have exactly the same thing and perfect parity? Or a game where there are many disparities between forces and half the fun (usually) is figuring out to create that parity? 

 

Eldar are supposed to be 40,000 year old lithe warriors that punch above their (fragile, puny) weight class.

 

Tau are supposed to be the young upstart who actually invest in technological escalation...and frankly that's the only thing saving them from being wiped out of existence.

 

Guard are supposed to be the flexible 'umies who can do a little bit of everything and rely on human ingenuity, a stiff backbone, and a dash of gumption to get things down. 

[duz_]

No if I wanted to Chess I would play Chess. I never said I wanted to balance the game perfectly.

Unfortunately for guard its been left a way back on the power curve and struggles to find its identity. To me, who arrived to the beginning of 7th having not played since 3rd. Very little had changed in the Guard codex. Yes a couple of units missing, a couple of units added and orders, but it still played very similarly to how it had back in 3rd. Except that everyone else had got wiser to our tricks.

So tweaks can be made to guard to improve its on board presence. The game does need some kind of loose balance, otherwise who would want to play with the army who is paper to every one else's scissors? Doesn't make sense from a GW sales perspective either.  

 

The whole point of this thread is discuss how we would go about improving our codex.

 

As mentioned on this forum and thread many times that just reducing points cost is the easy way out and doesn't add any additional flavour to our codex.

 

I stated why I selected Tau as a comparison because they are a Xeno gunline army and we are meant to be the Imperium's equivalent. 

 

Based on your comments, I would assume you are quite happy with how guard are and would like nothing to change. Which if that's the case I wish I played in your neck of the woods!

Unfortunately for guard its been left a way back on the power curve and struggles to find its identity.

 

[Indefragable]

No if I wanted to Chess I would play Chess. I never said I wanted to balance the game perfectly.

Unfortunately for guard its been left a way back on the power curve and struggles to find its identity. To me, who arrived to the beginning of 7th having not played since 3rd. Very little had changed in the Guard codex. Yes a couple of units missing, a couple of units added and orders, but it still played very similarly to how it had back in 3rd. Except that everyone else had got wiser to our tricks.

So tweaks can be made to guard to improve its on board presence. The game does need some kind of loose balance, otherwise who would want to play with the army who is paper to every one else's scissors? Doesn't make sense from a GW sales perspective either.  

 

The whole point of this thread is discuss how we would go about improving our codex.

 

As mentioned on this forum and thread many times that just reducing points cost is the easy way out and doesn't add any additional flavour to our codex.

 

I stated why I selected Tau as a comparison because they are a Xeno gunline army and we are meant to be the Imperium's equivalent. 

 

Based on your comments, I would assume you are quite happy with how guard are and would like nothing to change. Which if that's the case I wish I played in your neck of the woods!

Unfortunately for guard its been left a way back on the power curve and struggles to find its identity.

 

A lot of tone gets lost in the written word, so I apologize if I came off a bit snide: that was not my intention. Secondly, I thought you were saying IG lasguns should be the same as Tau pulse rifles, rather than saying "Tau have this, why not something similar" as a point of comparison.

 

Guard has been left in the dust and I eagerly await what may in store for us. But like a grizzled infantry squad Sgt who has somehow made it through multiple campaigns I have become jaded over my two years of playing (I, too, only just started in 7th) Guard and have had to barely scrape by in every single hard fought victory. The good news is we are not as bad off as some other Codexes that also need an update....but just barely. If CBG is what GW has in mind for us...there are kernels of hope but overall it is a bit troubling (no OBSEC at all? OBSEC is the mighty saving grace of the IG).

 

So long story short I think we have more in common than not and am sorry if my comments did not convey that enough.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm in agreement that lasguns need a boost. Maybe the way to boost it is with more command synergy. Or special rules. Giving them Rending or an order that gives them rending would be nice. I'd like Hotshot Lasguns to become Assault 2, rather than rapid fire, since scions suck at combat and 9" is within charge range (and generally, anything with a 3+ will slaughter them in CC).

 

For Fluff reasons, I'd like to see the guard infantry's wargear match the fluff (bayonets are CCW's, and I'd like to see that reflected again). bring back 5E Stormies, just the Rules, keep the Scion models, just give us special operations and HSLP/CCW back as wargear. Let the Sgt swap his pistol and CCW out for stuff and he just has a HSLG. Keep the platoon structure, that's actually a great thing.

 

Having the pistol/ccw is fluffy, and while it does give them a bonus attack, outside of the hellrain brigade, you don't want your stormies in combat, you want them shooting AP3 at stuff that it will kill.

 

I'm really hung up on the whole stormtrooper thing, since they are my favorite unit in the guard codex, and have been for a very long time. Also, I now have kasrkin, after years of wanting them, and they see more use as vets, because vets are just better than scions (vets come in squads of 10, can take 1 extra special weapon, and come out cheaper with carapace armour and krak grenades).

 

I'd also like to see a way to field a Storm Trooper Detachment from the standard book (get rid of the mini-dex). That would open up a ton of options for force composition.