Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[b1soul]

I thought Haley's portrayal of Sang was really flat and bland. Hope Thorpe does better

[rendingon1+]

He does - as mentioned before Gav's Sanguinius is mostly withdrawn, speaks very little and description of his rage mode was pretty nice. In other words - Gav didn't focus on him to much and Sanguinius emerged unscathed, unlike Guilliman.

 

Can anyone tell me what happened to Blood Angels Legion? 3 Books about Imperium Secundus and Blood Angels were never mentioned. Ultramarines are spread throughout the 500 worlds, 1st is(was) travelling with Lion in search for Curze and Blood Angels....?

[KJB]

I quite liked it

 

Was I the only one who, when reading the sections with the Night Haunter speaking, had the Jokers voice going through my head?

[Marshal Rohr]

I quite liked it

 

Was I the only one who, when reading the sections with the Night Haunter speaking, had the Jokers voice going through my head?

Which joker?

[helterskelter]

 

I quite liked it

 

Was I the only one who, when reading the sections with the Night Haunter speaking, had the Jokers voice going through my head?

Which joker?

Ceaser Romero

[Emperor's Furor]

My favourite line in the book was when the Lion said something a long the lines of "I want to theoretically punch you in your practical face".

 

What I drew the most in concern to the Lion's character was a line later on by Curze when he says "Total paranoia is just total awareness" It made me think that the Lion's senses, which have been enhanced psychically, have made him the paranoid man he is and whilst this is not only his greatest flaw it's also it's his greatest strength. It's caused his inability to socialise with people, something I can well relate to, it explains his grim brooding, it explains his sudden switch from passive to aggressive, he's always on edge always thinking about all possible outcomes.

 

I can really relate to the Lion, he can't figure out his own identity because he's the child who fought beasts, the son of a great man, a man who supplanted his father, found a father who supplanted him, had his own father conspire to kill him, all of that going on when he's already innately paranoid must be difficult to fathom.

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Lore

 

Quite a few lore bits here ...

 

(1) Zahariel knew the identity of the Lord Cypher - still no idea who it is myself

(2) Pandorax Grey Knight may not be Zahariel

...

(8) The Lord Cypher seemed to be one of the good guys - until Zahariel killed him and took up the roll - was he killed off screen though?

 

 

 

 

The book suggests that Zahariel has been assimilated by Orobourous, from which I take he is now irreversibly tainted by Chaos. If this is the case, then two things:

 

(1) There's no way that he could be the Pandora Grey Knight;

(2) I don't think that he's the same as 40k Cypher, on the grounds that he's a Chaos-tainted psyker, which as far as I was aware 40k is neither tainted by Chaos nor a psyker.

 

I'm guessing that we may see another Lord Cypher take his place. I wonder about the Voted Lieutenant of the Deathwing - kind of convenient that he's in possession of the shattered Lion Sword?

 

 

[Emperor's Furor]

Ouroboros is Tzeentch right, it's the only thing that makes sense to me, what with all the intrigue and psychic amplification. 

[Rob P]

 

 

Lore

 

Quite a few lore bits here ...

 

(1) Zahariel knew the identity of the Lord Cypher - still no idea who it is myself

(2) Pandorax Grey Knight may not be Zahariel

...

(8) The Lord Cypher seemed to be one of the good guys - until Zahariel killed him and took up the roll - was he killed off screen though?

 

 

 

 

The book suggests that Zahariel has been assimilated by Orobourous, from which I take he is now irreversibly tainted by Chaos. If this is the case, then two things:

 

(1) There's no way that he could be the Pandora Grey Knight;

(2) I don't think that he's the same as 40k Cypher, on the grounds that he's a Chaos-tainted psyker, which as far as I was aware 40k is neither tainted by Chaos nor a psyker.

 

I'm guessing that we may see another Lord Cypher take his place. I wonder about the Voted Lieutenant of the Deathwing - kind of convenient that he's in possession of the shattered Lion Sword?

 

 

 

Perhaps so, but got a feeling there''ll be some redemption angle involving the watchers.

 

 

Ouroboros is Tzeentch right, it's the only thing that makes sense to me, what with all the intrigue and psychic amplification. 

 

Didn't think it was obviously aligned to any god. What I thought was interesting is that it to some extent mirrors the fan idea that Fenris is an entity,

[Emperor's Furor]

 

 

 

Lore

 

Quite a few lore bits here ...

 

(1) Zahariel knew the identity of the Lord Cypher - still no idea who it is myself

(2) Pandorax Grey Knight may not be Zahariel

...

(8) The Lord Cypher seemed to be one of the good guys - until Zahariel killed him and took up the roll - was he killed off screen though?

 

 

 

 

The book suggests that Zahariel has been assimilated by Orobourous, from which I take he is now irreversibly tainted by Chaos. If this is the case, then two things:

 

(1) There's no way that he could be the Pandora Grey Knight;

(2) I don't think that he's the same as 40k Cypher, on the grounds that he's a Chaos-tainted psyker, which as far as I was aware 40k is neither tainted by Chaos nor a psyker.

 

I'm guessing that we may see another Lord Cypher take his place. I wonder about the Voted Lieutenant of the Deathwing - kind of convenient that he's in possession of the shattered Lion Sword?

 

 

 

Perhaps so, but got a feeling there''ll be some redemption angle involving the watchers.

 

 

Ouroboros is Tzeentch right, it's the only thing that makes sense to me, what with all the intrigue and psychic amplification. 

 

Didn't think it was obviously aligned to any god. What I thought was interesting is that it to some extent mirrors the fan idea that Fenris is an entity,

 

Isn't the Ouroboros emblem the one later Tzeentch worshippers adopt though? the snake devouring itself?

[Noserenda]

Just finished the book and was really gripped :D Loads of good info on the Legion and some interesting developments!

 

Its a bit frustrating how much discussion is in spolier boxes in a spoiler thread though, i cant read them at work! :(

[Rob P]

@WoT - that's a fair point and is probably correct (not in my head canon tho!)

 

I'm wondering if the identity of the Lord Cypher is important and, if the Watchers in the Dark are part of the cabal, whether they can do some John Grammaticus on him.

[hopkins]

Regarding Lord Cypher v2.0

 

 

was it not the last of the knights of lupus?

 

[b1soul]

I am reading the extract

 

Thorpe's prose is quite bad...as usual

 

Something really flat and bland about it. And it doesn't flow at all

[Hellath]

I finished it some days ago and, to be blunt, I didn't like it. Furthermore, it has been the HH novel that left the bitterest aftertaste in my mouth after reading it.

Obviously, much of this distaste comes from the fact I am a Night Lords' fan, and there is no redeeming factor for the Legion in anything that happens in this book. Now, the VIII have its Primarch, First Captain and best part of the surviving First Company's elite imprisoned by the First. That feels a bit like a joke. I could hardly believe it; with all the lore stablished for Konrad Curze before, specially in the excellent Night Lords trilogy by AD-B (that put me back into the hobby, to be honest with you), there has never been anything like "remember the time when the Primarch was made prisoner at Ultramar?"

This book, along with Vulkan Lives (and some chapters in Pharos) confirm to me the Night Lords are used mainly when a mindless, moustache twirling villain is needed in the series, specially if the author is an obvious fan of the legion he's writing.

From a less fanboyish (I admit) point of view, the Caliban based action was a bit confusing, but I came to enjoy all that backstabbing and betrayal (very Night Lordish! )

The best part for me was the unleashing of the Dreadwing. I fear the day I come to face them on the tabletop.

[b1soul]

Obviously, much of this distaste comes from the fact I am a Night Lords' fan, and there is no redeeming factor for the Legion in anything that happens in this book. Now, the VIII have its Primarch, First Captain and best part of the surviving First Company's elite imprisoned by the First. That feels a bit like a joke. I could hardly believe it; with all the lore stablished for Konrad Curze before, specially in the excellent Night Lords trilogy by AD-B (that put me back into the hobby, to be honest with you), there has never been anything like "remember the time when the Primarch was made prisoner at Ultramar?"  

Why the tears

 

ADB was the one who had the Lion slash open Curze's throat, sending Curze into a near-death coma

 

ADB was the one who had the NL elite surrender and Curze abandon them on the DA flagship

 

The only thing Gav added was the final duel

[Hellath]

 

Obviously, much of this distaste comes from the fact I am a Night Lords' fan, and there is no redeeming factor for the Legion in anything that happens in this book. Now, the VIII have its Primarch, First Captain and best part of the surviving First Company's elite imprisoned by the First. That feels a bit like a joke. I could hardly believe it; with all the lore stablished for Konrad Curze before, specially in the excellent Night Lords trilogy by AD-B (that put me back into the hobby, to be honest with you), there has never been anything like "remember the time when the Primarch was made prisoner at Ultramar?"  

Why the tears

 

ADB was the one who had the Lion slash open Curze's throat, sending Curze into a near-death coma

 

ADB was the one who had the NL elite surrender and Curze abandon them on the DA flagship

 

The only thing Gav added was the final duel

 

Indeed, I was thinking precisely that myself while I wrote the post. That felt somehow... less gratuitous. Maybe it was just better writen. The Night Lords looked interesting there!

[Emperor's Furor]

I dunno I mean, the Night Lords were shown in a pretty favourable light early on, now they are on the receiving end. The Dark Angels though had a really poor start to the series, I still think in general they have a shadow over them I don't think they've ever come out of a story looking good despite being a loyalist legion, for every good thing they achieve it's overshadowed by a bigger negative "oh you ambushed the Night Lords fleet, but you did it using xenos technology" "Oh you fought Curze to a stand still but you sneakily struck first, then had to be rescued by Corswain" "Oh you captured Curze finally, but you did just carpet bomb and basically orbital bombard a region after you were told specifically not to."

[Hellath]

I dunno I mean, the Night Lords were shown in a pretty favourable light early on, now they are on the receiving end. The Dark Angels though had a really poor start to the series, I still think in general they have a shadow over them I don't think they've ever come out of a story looking good despite being a loyalist legion, for every good thing they achieve it's overshadowed by a bigger negative "oh you ambushed the Night Lords fleet, but you did it using xenos technology" "Oh you fought Curze to a stand still but you sneakily struck first, then had to be rescued by Corswain" "Oh you captured Curze finally, but you did just carpet bomb and basically orbital bombard a region after you were told specifically not to."

 

So, that's how they managed the Thramas ambush? I clearly missed that part on my previous reads. 

Seeing how fragmented the First Legion is (and how hipocrite they can be with all that talk about honor)  made them really more interesting to my eyes. 

You guys are amazing. You have made me reconsider a novel I didn't enjoy under a different light. Thanks for that.

[Emperor's Furor]

Glad to know we helped

Dark Angels are a very "dark" legion, there's a reason many suspect they were actually traitors during the heresy but managed to wriggle out of it. They may have the whole "honour is foremost" like the Imperial Fists but they are definitely on the more chaotic spectrum when it comes to actually carrying out the deed.

[b1soul]

Indeed, I was thinking precisely that myself while I wrote the post. That felt somehow... less gratuitous. Maybe it was just better writen. The Night Lords looked interesting there!

In all fairness, ADB had Curze clutching at his own throat and then collapsing into a pool of his own blood . . . whereas Gav has the Lion perform some sort of professional wrestling backbreaker upon a beaten Curze

 

I suppose Gav's take is more "gratuitous" (and also nit very original). Gav also shows the entire fight

[Runefyre]

Indeed, I was thinking precisely that myself while I wrote the post. That felt somehow... less gratuitous. Maybe it was just better writen. The Night Lords looked interesting there!

In all fairness, ADB had Curze clutching at his own throat and then collapsing into a pool of his own blood . . . whereas Gav has the Lion perform some sort of professional wrestling backbreaker upon a beaten Curze

I suppose Gav's take is more "gratuitous" (and also nit very original). Gav also shows the entire fight

Yeah, it's ironic he had to copy a move from Russ in order to look awesome

[KJB]

 

 

I quite liked it

 

Was I the only one who, when reading the sections with the Night Haunter speaking, had the Jokers voice going through my head?

Which joker?

Ceaser Romero

Hah, not quite as camp!

 

I was thinking more in line of the Mark Hamill Joker

[shandwen]

I'm often shocked by the aloofness that people ascribe to space marines. Moments like the ravenwing marine checking out the Jetbike show the underlying humanity in space marines.

Also, these books have changed along in how we view Primarchs. Gone near perfect version of humanity and in its place we see deeply flawed and specifically engineered version of test subjects. This is an important feature in the DA as they were all the test bed for 16 out of 18 of the known legions tactics. The emperor had tendency to only temporarily rely on any force and it is in all likelihood that the dark angels were going to be the first legion to be thrown away. The lion did not have a role in real leadership but rather want to just trying out new tactics that shows with his complete lack of any ability and politics. His role was one of preparing his brothers to do their jobs.

Perhaps the key element of this book was that we see that each of the people left in charge on Caliban were all schemers. It is somewhat doubtful that even the Marines were locked in the cells were to be trusted at all. Like many other groups in the hh we can see schemes within schemes and truth within lies.

[lhavoc]

But we also have the traditions of The Order as a counterbalance of this. The Order cared nothing about the birthright or the nobility or commonness of your family. Once you were an initiate of The Order, you were dedicated to a life of service to a higher ideal. Firstly, to protect the people of Caliban from the monsters. Then, under The Lion, to rid Caliban of the monsters. Now, under The Emperor, to reclaim humanity's right to the stars. What The Emperors flaw was in not consolidating his victories, not noticing the growing discontent in his Legions as they started to wonder about thier role in a new, non-crusading Imperium, in not ensuring that the conquests were consolidated and brought into good governance, and in taking off for Terra and not informing his sons about what the master work he was trying to create and the dangers of Chaos and how to guard against its influence.