Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[Robbienw]

HaSY,

 

Internal art:

 

- A portrait picture of Astelan, close up of his face.

 

- A picture of two Thunderhawk Transporters bringing in a portable base to Illyrium.

 

- A picture of Luther standing in the Grand Hall, with some Dark Angels sat around a table.  Presumably Belath and some of his warriors.

 

 

Its never actually stated in the book if Holguin is wearing terminator armour or not.

[Robbienw]

Taliesin,

 

Yes those 5 characters are all Librarians.  The other Librarians in the book are Asmodeus and Myrdun.  Also, whilst not a Dark Angel, Titus Prayto of the Ultramarine makes an appearance.

 

Zahariel gets the most airtime by far.  Vassago and Asmodues next. Zahariels other mystai librarians appear througout the book, some of them speak a little bit, not as much as Vassago though.  Myrdun has no lines and only appears or is mentioned a couple of times.  Titus Prayto has a few lines in one chapter.

[Sevatar]

Ok, I'm finished, yay!

 

 

 

The lion tells them they have made a mistake, Curze must not die here. He tells them of curzes prediction where he saw his blade being broken and the lion begging for curzes life to be spared. Proof his visions are real.

 

Curze has seen that an assassin, sent by the emperor, would end his life. The emperor cannot dispatch an assassin if he is dead. The Lion says that if Curze is telling the truth, then the emperor is alive. They reason if Curze was destined to survive now as part of it, they must not kill him. Sanguinius realises his vision of dying at Horuses hands is probably true also.

 

 

 

 

 for the spoilers, the book sounds great. The final fight...I don't quite understand that. So they have established the Emperor is alive due to Curze's visions. So why not just kill Curze afterwards? I realise Gav is constrained by the fact that Curze's fate was sealed but the reluctance of Loyalist Primarchs to kill him is rather confusing. I may be wrong here so if someone could give a detailed explanation, thanks.  

[Kelborn]

What if Zahariel wants to redeem himself and wants the orouborus to die, convincing Astelan to attack the Lions ships and results in the destruction of the renegade DAs and the demon?

 

Whit his new role, he got much mor influence now.

[DarkChaplain]

Was there any mention of "Starfire" in this one? I remember that being a key phrase in Gav's 40k DA books.

 

One thing that confuses me right now is the following (Legacy of Caliban spoilers):

 

 

 

Tuchulcha will be brought to Caliban by the Dark Angels under Azrael, via timetravel stuff. This will result in some way in the destruction of Caliban. The 40k Dark Angels will bear witness to the cataclysmic events between the Lion and the Fallen.

But that means that Tuchulcha cannot have been around along with the Lion, otherwise that event would have happened already and he wouldn't be around 10k years later and require the Dark Angels to take him back to Caliban's past. If that was the case, we'd have two of them at Caliban at the same time.

Resulting from that, the Lion has to "lose" the device before returning. One possibility would be for him to hand it to Sanguinius, but it is unlikely that he will want to share the knowledge, and Sanguinius would have to hide or lose it too for the later DAs to find.

 

Likewise, the third part of the daemon entity will either already be out and about, or be in Typhon's hands in the coming parts of the plotline. We know he is after the thing himself, as per The Lion and the Legacy of Caliban trilogy.

 

I also find it likely that Zahariel will be seeing that he did wrong and try to re-cage the Orouborus. There is too much setup about him in that regard. He was approached by the Watchers during his youth already, and now he got even more answers about what is going on. This can still lead to him becoming a Grey Knight, too.

 

Though I have to say, Gav has us all played like a goddamn fiddle with Astelan. He is the most unreliable of narrators throughout all of 40k. He fooled us all, and I still cannot say what he really believes himself and what he does not. I cannot trust what he says but I also cannot say what is an outright lie. He keeps things so ambiguous, it is oddly satisfying to see things play out differently from what you expect them to be.

I even doubt that the psychic protection truly is the Emperor's work, or at least was not tampered with. It is just too convenient for the schemer to have such protection from the Emperor himself. He knows more than he tells us, always.

 

 

[HeritorA]

And so let's summarise:

1) Important events in the book = 0

2) Triumvirate are still seating on their asses at Macragge  - checked.

3) Anothe Curze-Lion duel - checked.

4) Zahariel adorning Chaos entity, being a charming idiot - checked.

 

Why do I actually should buy this booK?

[drooling blood]

Was there any mention of "Starfire" in this one? I remember that being a key phrase in Gav's 40k DA books.

 

One thing that confuses me right now is the following (Legacy of Caliban spoilers):

 

 

 

Tuchulcha will be brought to Caliban by the Dark Angels under Azrael, via timetravel stuff. This will result in some way in the destruction of Caliban. The 40k Dark Angels will bear witness to the cataclysmic events between the Lion and the Fallen.

But that means that Tuchulcha cannot have been around along with the Lion, otherwise that event would have happened already and he wouldn't be around 10k years later and require the Dark Angels to take him back to Caliban's past. If that was the case, we'd have two of them at Caliban at the same time.

Resulting from that, the Lion has to "lose" the device before returning. One possibility would be for him to hand it to Sanguinius, but it is unlikely that he will want to share the knowledge, and Sanguinius would have to hide or lose it too for the later DAs to find.

 

Likewise, the third part of the daemon entity will either already be out and about, or be in Typhon's hands in the coming parts of the plotline. We know he is after the thing himself, as per The Lion and the Legacy of Caliban trilogy.

 

I also find it likely that Zahariel will be seeing that he did wrong and try to re-cage the Orouborus. There is too much setup about him in that regard. He was approached by the Watchers during his youth already, and now he got even more answers about what is going on. This can still lead to him becoming a Grey Knight, too.

 

Though I have to say, Gav has us all played like a goddamn fiddle with Astelan. He is the most unreliable of narrators throughout all of 40k. He fooled us all, and I still cannot say what he really believes himself and what he does not. I cannot trust what he says but I also cannot say what is an outright lie. He keeps things so ambiguous, it is oddly satisfying to see things play out differently from what you expect them to be.

I even doubt that the psychic protection truly is the Emperor's work, or at least was not tampered with. It is just too convenient for the schemer to have such protection from the Emperor himself. He knows more than he tells us, always.

 

 

Dont think Sangy needs Orouborus. Now that hes got his Kurze vision. Though he should know about it now.

[DarkChaplain]

 

Was there any mention of "Starfire" in this one? I remember that being a key phrase in Gav's 40k DA books.

 

One thing that confuses me right now is the following (Legacy of Caliban spoilers):

 

 

 

Tuchulcha will be brought to Caliban by the Dark Angels under Azrael, via timetravel stuff. This will result in some way in the destruction of Caliban. The 40k Dark Angels will bear witness to the cataclysmic events between the Lion and the Fallen.

But that means that Tuchulcha cannot have been around along with the Lion, otherwise that event would have happened already and he wouldn't be around 10k years later and require the Dark Angels to take him back to Caliban's past. If that was the case, we'd have two of them at Caliban at the same time.

Resulting from that, the Lion has to "lose" the device before returning. One possibility would be for him to hand it to Sanguinius, but it is unlikely that he will want to share the knowledge, and Sanguinius would have to hide or lose it too for the later DAs to find.

 

Likewise, the third part of the daemon entity will either already be out and about, or be in Typhon's hands in the coming parts of the plotline. We know he is after the thing himself, as per The Lion and the Legacy of Caliban trilogy.

 

I also find it likely that Zahariel will be seeing that he did wrong and try to re-cage the Orouborus. There is too much setup about him in that regard. He was approached by the Watchers during his youth already, and now he got even more answers about what is going on. This can still lead to him becoming a Grey Knight, too.

 

Though I have to say, Gav has us all played like a goddamn fiddle with Astelan. He is the most unreliable of narrators throughout all of 40k. He fooled us all, and I still cannot say what he really believes himself and what he does not. I cannot trust what he says but I also cannot say what is an outright lie. He keeps things so ambiguous, it is oddly satisfying to see things play out differently from what you expect them to be.

I even doubt that the psychic protection truly is the Emperor's work, or at least was not tampered with. It is just too convenient for the schemer to have such protection from the Emperor himself. He knows more than he tells us, always.

 

 

Dont think Sangy needs Orouborus. Now that hes got his Kurze vision. Though he should know about it now.

 

 

I wasn't talking about him needing Orouborus, but making use of Tuchulcha to breach the Ruinstorm and reach Terra in time for the siege. There will have to be some sort of explanation of why the Lion and Guilliman aren't there on time but Sanguinius is.

 

 

And so let's summarise:

1) Important events in the book = 0

2) Triumvirate are still seating on their asses at Macragge  - checked.

3) Anothe Curze-Lion duel - checked.

4) Zahariel adorning Chaos entity, being a charming idiot - checked.

 

Why do I actually should buy this booK?

 

Oh get off it. You read the spoilers and still seem to fail to grasp their meaning and implications, even on a basic level. The "triumvirate" is shattered by the end of the book, Imperium Secundus is basically done for, the Curze vs Lion duel was apparent from the cover alone and had some neat twists and moved the plot forward overall. Zahariel's story arc is far from over either, and some things about it even foreshadowed something like it for ages.

Don't buy the book, by all means. Nobody's putting a boltgun to your head. But please, just stop trashing books you haven't even read based on ignoring half the info that was already shared about it and willfully misinterpreting and misrepresenting the rest. And I thought I was a negative nancy, but at least I try reading the books for myself first.

 

A good novel is also more than the sum of its parts. You can know every key detail to it and still be wowed by its execution and perspectives it presents. From the spoilers, Angels of Caliban looks like a cracking read with far-reaching implications and aftereffects that could turn established lore on its head (something you have been begging for in the past, if I remember correctly)

[Robbienw]

Sevatar,

 

Its not ouright stated, but i take from it they dont want to kill him in case it changes events.  They are taking it to mean as long as Curze is alive, the emperor is alive to order despatch of the assasin that will kill him.

DarkChaplain,

 

No mention of Starfire.

[DarkChaplain]

Its not ouright stated, but i take from it they dont want to kill him in case it changes events.  They are taking it to mean as long as Curze is alive, the emperor is alive to order despatch of the assasin that will kill him.

 

That's how I understood the situation from your spoilers too. Killing Curze would diverge the timeline from its supposed path, by invalidating events and creating new ripples with unforeseen consequences. If they kill Konrad, their insurance for the Emperor being around to task M'Shen with Curze's assassination would go poof.

 

What worries me is that the Night Lords will return to Tsagualsa only after the Heresy is concluded. The Emperor will already be "dead" by that time. M'Shen is around already, though, and was mentioned in Nemesis specifically. We don't know when the assassin gets the job - especially since the Big E already expressed his displeasure with Malcador and co for using assassins in the first place.

 

Makes me wonder if Curze has it all wrong about who really sent M'Shen to kill him, or if she was on the hunt for possibly a decade or more (probably mentioned somewhere in the Night Lords trilogy) before going in for the kill.

Which makes things a bit tricky for the validation part, doesn't it? The only thing they (or we) know for certain is that Curze will indeed be assassinated by M'Shen. He is right about that. But the task could have been given already, or might not be given by the Emperor, which would mean that he could be dead already (task given) or die at any time (somebody else giving the task). Sanguinius' own vision of dying at Horus' feet doesn't indicate or contradict either.

[Guest]

...............

[HeritorA]

 

 

Was there any mention of "Starfire" in this one? I remember that being a key phrase in Gav's 40k DA books.

 

One thing that confuses me right now is the following (Legacy of Caliban spoilers):

 

 

 

Tuchulcha will be brought to Caliban by the Dark Angels under Azrael, via timetravel stuff. This will result in some way in the destruction of Caliban. The 40k Dark Angels will bear witness to the cataclysmic events between the Lion and the Fallen.

But that means that Tuchulcha cannot have been around along with the Lion, otherwise that event would have happened already and he wouldn't be around 10k years later and require the Dark Angels to take him back to Caliban's past. If that was the case, we'd have two of them at Caliban at the same time.

Resulting from that, the Lion has to "lose" the device before returning. One possibility would be for him to hand it to Sanguinius, but it is unlikely that he will want to share the knowledge, and Sanguinius would have to hide or lose it too for the later DAs to find.

 

Likewise, the third part of the daemon entity will either already be out and about, or be in Typhon's hands in the coming parts of the plotline. We know he is after the thing himself, as per The Lion and the Legacy of Caliban trilogy.

 

I also find it likely that Zahariel will be seeing that he did wrong and try to re-cage the Orouborus. There is too much setup about him in that regard. He was approached by the Watchers during his youth already, and now he got even more answers about what is going on. This can still lead to him becoming a Grey Knight, too.

 

Though I have to say, Gav has us all played like a goddamn fiddle with Astelan. He is the most unreliable of narrators throughout all of 40k. He fooled us all, and I still cannot say what he really believes himself and what he does not. I cannot trust what he says but I also cannot say what is an outright lie. He keeps things so ambiguous, it is oddly satisfying to see things play out differently from what you expect them to be.

I even doubt that the psychic protection truly is the Emperor's work, or at least was not tampered with. It is just too convenient for the schemer to have such protection from the Emperor himself. He knows more than he tells us, always.

 

 

Dont think Sangy needs Orouborus. Now that hes got his Kurze vision. Though he should know about it now.

 

 

I wasn't talking about him needing Orouborus, but making use of Tuchulcha to breach the Ruinstorm and reach Terra in time for the siege. There will have to be some sort of explanation of why the Lion and Guilliman aren't there on time but Sanguinius is.

 

 

And so let's summarise:

1) Important events in the book = 0

2) Triumvirate are still seating on their asses at Macragge  - checked.

3) Anothe Curze-Lion duel - checked.

4) Zahariel adorning Chaos entity, being a charming idiot - checked.

 

Why do I actually should buy this booK?

 

Oh get off it. You read the spoilers and still seem to fail to grasp their meaning and implications, even on a basic level. The "triumvirate" is shattered by the end of the book, Imperium Secundus is basically done for, the Curze vs Lion duel was apparent from the cover alone and had some neat twists and moved the plot forward overall. Zahariel's story arc is far from over either, and some things about it even foreshadowed something like it for ages.

Don't buy the book, by all means. Nobody's putting a boltgun to your head. But please, just stop trashing books you haven't even read based on ignoring half the info that was already shared about it and willfully misinterpreting and misrepresenting the rest. And I thought I was a negative nancy, but at least I try reading the books for myself first.

 

A good novel is also more than the sum of its parts. You can know every key detail to it and still be wowed by its execution and perspectives it presents. From the spoilers, Angels of Caliban looks like a cracking read with far-reaching implications and aftereffects that could turn established lore on its head (something you have been begging for in the past, if I remember correctly)

 

Dark Chaplain - I almost totally agree with you, but: Imperium Secundus has taken too long, it's boring and unlogical. That with all where resources they still don't know that EMPEROR LIVES is just a plot plug, nothing more.

 

Curze as a plot plug with a Gesser theorem? That cause of the future event, which seems simply couldn't be changed, they should not KILL Curze??? Really?

'A good novel is also more than the sum of its parts.' - totally agree, but Caliban is what?  SM unlike SM bickering like children about who will hold the crown in the papa absense.

Book is made by the sum of it's parts - and if parts are boring, illogical or just a plot plug - that doesn't make a book GOOD.

There is a big difference between a masterpiece that was 'Path of Heaven' and this .... soup opera for 4 persons.

And Zahariel reasoning and actions are inconsistent and unexplainable. I did listened all previous DA HH audios and read all the novellas and shorts. That's why the more I read about Zahariel the more I think he is brainless and totally insane with his reasoning.

[lhavoc]

I kinda like the Zahariel/New Cypher idea. It would make current Cypher even more interesting. Like what Batman said about The Joker in "The Killing Joke" - "He's told so many lies about himself over the years, I doubt even he remembers anymore".

[Sevatar]

 

Its not ouright stated, but i take from it they dont want to kill him in case it changes events.  They are taking it to mean as long as Curze is alive, the emperor is alive to order despatch of the assasin that will kill him.

 

That's how I understood the situation from your spoilers too. Killing Curze would diverge the timeline from its supposed path, by invalidating events and creating new ripples with unforeseen consequences. If they kill Konrad, their insurance for the Emperor being around to task M'Shen with Curze's assassination would go poof.

 

What worries me is that the Night Lords will return to Tsagualsa only after the Heresy is concluded. The Emperor will already be "dead" by that time. M'Shen is around already, though, and was mentioned in Nemesis specifically. We don't know when the assassin gets the job - especially since the Big E already expressed his displeasure with Malcador and co for using assassins in the first place.

 

Makes me wonder if Curze has it all wrong about who really sent M'Shen to kill him, or if she was on the hunt for possibly a decade or more (probably mentioned somewhere in the Night Lords trilogy) before going in for the kill.

Which makes things a bit tricky for the validation part, doesn't it? The only thing they (or we) know for certain is that Curze will indeed be assassinated by M'Shen. He is right about that. But the task could have been given already, or might not be given by the Emperor, which would mean that he could be dead already (task given) or die at any time (somebody else giving the task). Sanguinius' own vision of dying at Horus' feet doesn't indicate or contradict either.

 

Thanks for the reply, but I still don't follow the author's reasoning. Sure, Curze's vision means the Emperor is alive. But they should kill Curze now that they have established that doing so will not suddenly kill or damage the Emperor - indeed it would make his survival more likely due to the NL loss of leadership. Sounds like a good read though. Good to see the DA being the warrior-knights they are.

[Augustus]

Remove his legs. Arms. Eyes.

[Sviox]

When is this book going to be released as hardback? This month?

[b1soul]

Remove his legs. Arms. Eyes.

Arms and legs would suffice...Monty Python and the Holy Grail style

[DarkChaplain]

 

 

Its not ouright stated, but i take from it they dont want to kill him in case it changes events.  They are taking it to mean as long as Curze is alive, the emperor is alive to order despatch of the assasin that will kill him.

 

That's how I understood the situation from your spoilers too. Killing Curze would diverge the timeline from its supposed path, by invalidating events and creating new ripples with unforeseen consequences. If they kill Konrad, their insurance for the Emperor being around to task M'Shen with Curze's assassination would go poof.

 

What worries me is that the Night Lords will return to Tsagualsa only after the Heresy is concluded. The Emperor will already be "dead" by that time. M'Shen is around already, though, and was mentioned in Nemesis specifically. We don't know when the assassin gets the job - especially since the Big E already expressed his displeasure with Malcador and co for using assassins in the first place.

 

Makes me wonder if Curze has it all wrong about who really sent M'Shen to kill him, or if she was on the hunt for possibly a decade or more (probably mentioned somewhere in the Night Lords trilogy) before going in for the kill.

Which makes things a bit tricky for the validation part, doesn't it? The only thing they (or we) know for certain is that Curze will indeed be assassinated by M'Shen. He is right about that. But the task could have been given already, or might not be given by the Emperor, which would mean that he could be dead already (task given) or die at any time (somebody else giving the task). Sanguinius' own vision of dying at Horus' feet doesn't indicate or contradict either.

 

Thanks for the reply, but I still don't follow the author's reasoning. Sure, Curze's vision means the Emperor is alive. But they should kill Curze now that they have established that doing so will not suddenly kill or damage the Emperor - indeed it would make his survival more likely due to the NL loss of leadership. Sounds like a good read though. Good to see the DA being the warrior-knights they are.

 

 

Its a simple chain. Given that Curze's visions are in fact truth, they are something they can rely on. Curze knows future events, and he won't lie about them concerning his death, as his whole character revolves around getting absolution for it - without the Emperor sending an assassin to kill him, his life will have been based on lies, and he will never even consider that. He wants everybody to know he is right and be vindicated for his pre-ordained actions. Hence he has to speak the truth and let them know, so they will see that he was correct all along.

 

And since Curze is telling the truth and has had precise visions of future events since childhood, none of which ended up false (which drives him crazy), they know for a fact that Curze will be alive and HAS to meet his end at the hands of an assassin. Even IF they were to kill Curze (given that they even COULD do so), they would make Curze's visions a lie. They could not occur in that way. Taking out Curze would prevent the Emperor from ever sending an assassin. That could be harmless (he has no need to do so anymore), but it could also be fatal (the Emperor dies due to Curze's absence in the course of the Heresy, and his death having worse effects overall than him being imprisoned). By keeping him alive, they are ensuring that his vision is allowed to come to pass in the first place, and while Curze remains alive, his visions do as well.

 

Some speculation:

 

 

So what could happen if they took out Curze? Sevatar could run wild, for example. He is loyal to his father, at least more than most others. He might take revenge, and orchestrate the Night Lords once more. He is held captive now, but that isn't going to last, especially not if he gets proper motivation to hit back hard. We also know that the Night Lords are making to rejoin Horus for Terra, as per the end of Pharos. They are still scattered and lack unity of purpose, though. Learning of their Primarch's death at the hands of Guilliman and co might just be the catalyst for them to get really nasty. The Primarch's visions aren't unknown to them, and who knows what they might do if they, too, realized they have been living based on lies and their father being legitimately crazy in the first place? They might not indulge their own scare tactics during the Siege, but instead lay down the law and infiltrate the palace far more effectively than in the semi-warband formations they have right now.

 

There are countless possibilities in which Curze's death from the galactic game board might affect every Legion involved, some more than others. It could tip the balance in big ways, and not necessarily in favor of the Loyalists. Remember that Curze was really, really suicidal with his strike at the Invincible Reason, which got him captured in the first place. He threw his Legion away rather than regrouping or scattering in an attempt to remain a viable force in the Heresy. He doesn't act in the best interest of Horus. He is selfish, and does not really bend his knee to the Warmaster. But while he remains alive and "out there", nobody else can fully claim leadership of the Legion. The Salamanders have been struggling with their leadership and unity ever since Isstvan V, and a big part of that is the uncertain fate of Vulkan up to the end of Deathfire. They doubt, they hope, they wish for him to return. Had they the iron certainty of their Primarch's death, they might just manage to reform like the Iron Hands did under Shadrak Meduson.

 

The Night Lords would be similar, I believe. Right now, everybody is in it for themselves. We have seen that with Krukesh and Skraivok already, ditching Sevatar in a power play of their own, and getting backstabbed or thrown to the brig. The only one who can actually take control in Curze's stead would be Sevatar, who has no motivation to replace Curze as of yet (heck, he re-established the Kyroptera while Curze was in a coma, rather than taking control himself). He is similar to Shadrak in that regard. The death of Curze might just as well force him into it, like Shadrak was after the council of clan leaders went poof. And up until the end of Angels of Caliban, it appears that Sevatar is in Ultramar / with the Dark Angels, so he would find out sooner or later, whether via the information reaching him, arrogant Angels taunting him with it, or finding out via psychic powers. It might unchain Sevatar for good.

 

 

Curze's death could ripple across the galaxy in many ways. Why risk upsetting the course of history?

[Augustus]

I dunno DC. The Iron Hands aren't really united all that much either.

Kill Sevetar too. They're already sort of scattered to the four winds. Killing their leadership would, imo, only exacerbatete the infighting that is likely already rampant with Night Lords.

[DarkChaplain]

As per Meduson, Vengeful Spirit, The Either, and even The Path of Heaven, the Iron Hands / Shattered Legions under Shadrak are one of the main sources slowing Horus down. Without them he might have already made it to Terra, but instead he has to divert forces and deal with frequent raids. They might not be a united fighting force or Legion, but they are united in purpose the way the Night Lords are not. They are acting according to designs from a central figure at the top, whose name is a curse on the traitors' lips.

[Marshal Rohr]

Considering Autek Mor is leading 1/6 or the remaining Iron Hands on a mission that involves slamming moons into traitor planets I think Medusons little band of friends is getting way more credit than they deserve.

[Sevatar]

I dunno DC. The Iron Hands aren't really united all that much either.

Kill Sevetar too. They're already sort of scattered to the four winds. Killing their leadership would, imo, only exacerbatete the infighting that is likely already rampant with Night Lords.

Thanks for the reply DarkChaplain. I am bemused they have not bumped off Sevatar yet to be honest - is his information that reliable? I have a fear he will make some ludicrous escape.

[Perry]

I hope they get a Dreadwing RoW from Forgeworld.

 

Having a division within the Legion with the purpose of the utter destruction of the enemy will be fun.

 

Phospex, warp weapons... all the good toys.

[lhavoc]

I am looking forward to seeing more about the "Wings" too. We know about Ravenwing jetbikes, the heavy emphasis on swords, etc. Fleshing out what the other elements of the Legion do and how the "Wingleaders" operate with the standard chain of command personnel would be a treat

[Augustus]

You also have the iron hands' Iron fathers working against said Meduson. I seriously doubt that theyre worried the night lords wil become more of a threat if they execute Curze. They were prepared to execute him. I guess the point is moot sincewe know curze dies with all his limbs attached after wrecking te Imperium for another 100 years or so.. sans a head.