Angels of Caliban (Spoilers)

[helterskelter]

Right.

Right.

Trying not to be pretty peeved by this. Because basically what Gav has done is made the Night Lords impotent.

Forgeworld have pretty much killed off Ophion and his lot.

Because he's a lazy writer we've just kept Sevatar and a good chunk of the First company locked up.

We now have a crippled Curze. In a complete turn around for the Lion because now, all of a sudden, he starts believing what Curze has to say.

Look. Gav. You've pretty much ruined the Raven Guard in the Novels, you've made a mess of the Leaders of the Night Lords.

Stop writing. Just stop it. Go back to elves. Or Aelfs.

I'm glad the Dark Angels have had their fluff expanded, and the wings have got some attention, but it should not have been at the expense of another legion in yet another personality change for loyal El jonson.

Mortarion can fish for Fire Raptors, Curze is fast enough to outrun ones tracking systems. Where's his EMP ability gone where he can just shut off all the lights? I'm pretty sure he could do that to a few ships in front of him.

 

Meh.

Well only a positive for Dark Angels

Some plot progression from a couple of Angles

A few odds and ends tied up.

A couple of howling gaps.

But I'm done with Gav Thorpe and heresy/40k writing

[Spaced Hulk]

@ helterskelter. Whilst I appreciate your point of view and agree with it in some ways (I'm not a fan at all of Gav's HH Raven Guard or 40k DA books, for reasons I won't go into here), I don't actually think it's a bad thing to reduce the power and influence of the Night Haunter from some of his previous portrayals.

 

In Unremembered Empire, he's basically unstoppable. Ignoring all the Astartes he effortlessly defeats/kills (which as a Primarch, obviously he should), he takes on three Primarchs (two of them at once) and outfights and outwits them all, then gets sucked into the warp fighting a daemonic monstrosity, which he is able to defeat and then somehow escapes back to the normal universe again relatively unscathed.

 

Now, I don't have a problem with Kurze being one of the most lethal and dangerous Primarchs. But I do feel he's almost getting too much attention, and because he's been portrayed as so unkillable, he's almost becoming a cliched movie villain. Especially when you combine that with his over the top, moustache twirling sadism in Vulcan Lives. It's an exaggeration, but as he stands at the end of Unremembered Empire, he could almost win the heresy on his own. 

 

In my opinion, toning him down a bit, by having him defeated and injured, actually makes him more believable and more interesting.

 

The thing is, we know he escapes, and continues to lead the VIII for quite some time. We know the Night Lords make it to Terra and contribute to the Siege, and also survive it and return to the Eastern Fringe, causing mayhem until ALL the Ultramarines Successors have to be mustered to assault Tsagualsa during the Scouring.

 

To me, that doesn't sound like the Night Lords are a spent force in any way.

 

And for me, the most interesting thing about Konrad Curze has never been his lethality in combat or his sadism, but instead his madness and self fulfilling prophesy, which eventually leads to him committing suicide by allowing M'Shen to assassinate him. So in other words, Curze himself is the only one capable of taking his own life (the assassin is basically just the tool he uses to do it.)

[helterskelter]

All the night lord commanders that are left in the field need Sevatar or Curze to come back else they turn into self serving cartoon villain's. I know night Lords are self serving but now every single portrayal of a night lord is gonna be moustache twirling.

Curze is a psychopath, he's insane, but he is capable.

How can he in one Novel match Sanguinius blow for blow, dodge for dodge because they can predict the movements of the other, then get his backside handed to him by the lion because he's needs toning down? Nope. He's already been put near death once, his previous portrayls in other fights have been underhanded and dirty, basically scrapped against Vulkan in ultramar, knew he couldn't go 2 on 1 forever and rigged a room to explode.

 

How is he going to get out now? His back is broken, he has been pitied, he's going to be on some serious lock down.

The only way he's getting out that I can see is the Lion letting him go. Which is either going to be handled well by a capable author, doing what I hope is going to be done all along and making the dark angels look like they wait to see is going to win, or its going to be "oh I'm just going to leave these two men here to look after you, and here's some keys to the jail and a stormbird"

I know I'm heavily a night Lords fan, and I can understand the other side of the argument, and I don't mind when the night Lords "lose" they are the bad guys, they're not meant to win the big stuff, especially not the night Lords, they're meant to do what they need to and get the heck out of dodge, and be savage about it on the way through.

But not like how Gav has done it. It's just awful. Plain Awful. And I wish I could write worth a damn to show how it could be done better (I have ideas it's just hard to convert them to paper)

It's almost humiliating to have this fluff attributed to NL history, when such great pieces have come before it.

The next chap who gets NL has got his/her work cut out for them

[Spaced Hulk]

Like I said, I appreciate your point of view. Deliverence Lost killed off my enthusiasm for starting a HH Raven Guard army, and I pretend that many of the plot progressions in the 40k Unforgiven books don't exist. The Dark Angels have always been my favourite 30k/40k faction, and whilst I love the extra organisational details that Angels of Caliban has revealed, when I read it I suspect there will be plenty of plot points and characterisation that I'll dislike.

As for the reasons for this, well, there are two. The first is simply that I don't really like how Gav writes about Space Marines in general and the Dark Angels in particular. This is just my personal opinion, and he's also not on his own. There are a very limited number of BL authors (again in my opinion) who I feel write believable Astartes characters. It's hard to explain exactly what the differences are, and it's probably all down to my personal reaction to each authors prose, but I can re-read books by ADB and Dan Abnett again and again, while other books are a real struggle to get through even once. This isn't meant to be a personal attack on the other authors (including Gav). All art is subjective and we all react to it in different ways.

The other reason is simply because of the fundamental flaws in the Horus Heresy books. It's series of interconnecting stories featuring the same characters, all being written about by a host of different authors. Which means that obviously you're going to get different approaches and styles, some of which you'll like and some of which you won't. They're also telling a long, long story of which we already know the outcome, and are basically filling in the missing parts, parts which we think we already know because the overall story arc is so familiar to us.

The thing is, we all have our own interpretations of how the story should proceed and how the characters should develop. You mentioned liking the idea of the Dark Angels waiting to see how the heresy will unfold before picking a side, which is an idea first introduced by Gav (as far as I know anyway) and one which I actually detest, and probably more so than how you feel about what's currently happening to Curze. I hate the idea because it contradicts entirely how I've interpreted the Lion and the Dark Angels ever since Second Edition 40K. Now fortunately for me, it seems unlikely that the story will play out that way now, but if it did I'd either have to accept it and change my thinking, or ignore it and continue to base my beliefs about the DA on the earlier background.

This is getting pretty OT, so I'll just address your point about Curze's injuries and potential escape and then leave this discussion for now. First of all he's a Primarch, and can heal even the most terrible injuries given time, so I'm sure he'll be running around again before too long. And secondly he's the Night Haunter. If anyone is capable of escaping even the most heavily guarded prison cell, it's going to be him.

My advice is wait and see what happens, keep your fingers crossed that one of the authors you personally like gets to write the next installment of Curzes story, and if all else fails, choose to ignore the stuff you dislike and concentrate on the things which appealed to you about the Night Lords in the first place. Hope this helps!

[A D-B]

Because he's a lazy writer we've just kept Sevatar and a good chunk of the First company locked up.

 

Sev has been a bad boy and has earned his prison time. Let him rot.

[helterskelter]

 

 

Because he's a lazy writer we've just kept Sevatar and a good chunk of the First company locked up.

Sev has been a bad boy and has earned his prison time. Let him rot.

Considering Lionel punches the head off a chaplain that says no, you'd think he'd give a bit more attention to a chap who kills his men without a second thought

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Before you blame Gav, blame Abnett for his over the top portrayal of Curze.

[helterskelter]

Before you blame Gav, blame Abnett for his over the top portrayal of Curze.

I do. I also blame him for Ultramarine

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Friends for life :).

 

Joking aside. Writing space marines seems to be hard enough but Primarchs are a different animal altogether.

 

I like Curze and the Night Lords I mainly put this down to ADB.

[b1soul]

The only way he's getting out that I can see is the Lion letting him go. Which is either going to be handled well by a capable author, doing what I hope is going to be done all along and making the dark angels look like they wait to see is going to win, or its going to be "oh I'm just going to leave these two men here to look after you, and here's some keys to the jail and a stormbird"

The Lion will likely let him go...so that his destiny of being assassinated will be fulfilled

[Kelborn]

It cannot be that nearly all recent NL depictions are stereotypicall villains... Haven't read all HH stuff so I'm not in the right position to complain something. I'm just hoping.

 

What of Balthasar Sul? The guy who used his seeker and terror squads on an Ork fleet in Massacre? That was cool and how I'd image them to fight.

[Saphrael]

I don't think we should be judging a novel based on one user's plot summary (as much as said summary is appreciated).

 

Savage Weapons is widely thought of to be one of the best depictions of both the Lion and DA in the HH, but the plot summary would just read:

 

The Lion and Curze fight.

Sevatar beheads previously unknown DA captain.

Another previously unknown DA character stabs Curze in the back while he chokes the Lion.

The fight between the Lion and Curze ends as a draw.

 

Now, we all know there is much more to Savage Weapons than that.

 

All of that said, I find Gav's writing and his DA in particular to be pretty awful. Which is a real shame because I've listened to interviews with him where it's obvious he really gets the DA and is passionate about writing them.

 

The plot points that stood out to me as unpleasant are:

 

Guilliman breaking the Lion Sword (the sword breaking at Caliban is such a defining element of the DA) and Zahariel becoming the new Cypher. I always loved the thought that the 40k Cypher was an old member of the Knights of Lupus, who had all kinds of awesome secrets from Caliban's past and was working to both aid modern DA and subvert them when they were doing wrong. I suppose Zahariel could still end up there, but it won't have the same sense of history. Not to mention that I liked the idea of him becoming a Grey Knight founder.

 

 

But I'll reserve final judgement until I get the book. I just wish there was a way to show GW I want more DA content, I just want someone else to write it.

[DarKnight]

Lol if you want someone else to re-canonize any of this stuff, just live long enough. It'll happen.

[Augustus]

Saphrael, 
That is putting things into a good perspective. Savage weapons is like tied for second on my favorite Horus Heresy works.

 

I also agree with your disappointments.

[b1soul]

Did Abnett really overpower Curze

 

 

People act like Abnett had Curze pummel the Lion and Guilliman into submission...when all he did was hold them off for a bit before detonating his bombs

 

Guilliman held off Angron and Lorgar for a short while...before getting smashed by Angron. The difference is Guilliman didn't have the benefit of big explosions to help him escape a 2 on 1 situation

[Augustus]

Thats true. But I am of the mind that the "over-powered-ness" comes from his for all intents and purpose, mind reading ability. That and he murdered Vulkan a few times in a short span. Then the demon thing. Then murdering about a million Ultramarines. Sorry for the hyperbole.

Also, if you subscribe to the "fate" angle. Then the reason he could do all those things is because he had already done them. And any reason why he couldn't defeat the Lion or other Primarchs in a fight is because he didn't.

[Marshal Rohr]

Pre-destination is as bad for plot lines as it is for legal defense.

 

'Kurze didn't win because he wasn't going to anyway'

 

'That old lady was gonna die if I'd be drinking and driving or not'

[Saphrael]

Pre-destination is as bad for plot lines as it is for legal defense.

Sure, but the writers are trying to do the best they can within the bounds of established lore within the Heresy. For example knew the fates of all of the primarchs before the series even started.

[Sviox]

To answer my own question, the book is coming out 18th of this month. There is even an extract available at Black Library site: http://www.blacklibrary.com/the-horus-heresy-teaser.html

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Pre-destination is as bad for plot lines as it is for legal defense.

Sure, but the writers are trying to do the best they can within the bounds of established lore within the Heresy. For example knew the fates of all of the primarchs before the series even started.

It was actually a surprise when Ferrus died and Dorns death was established after the series started. Ferrus had survived to weigh in on the Codex in older lore, and FFG had written Dorn as the last Primarch to die for the loyalists, which we now know isn't true because he's dead by the time of TBA series. Angels of Caliban is setting itself up to completely remove the Lion from relieving Terra (as he had in older lore) by moving the destruction of Caliban to before 014.M31, which was most definitely AFTER the siege prior to this series, because half the reason the legion attacked the Luthorites is because they assumed they threw in with Horus.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Rohr: What older lore? 

 

I thought Ferrus' death was established for a long time?

[lhavoc]

I've never seen anything saying that the Dark Angels got to Terra before The Emperor was already deathly wounded and Horus was dead. There is mention of the Dark Angels spending a long time afterwards chasing the Traitors away before returning to Caliban and the whole Lion vs Luther thing happened.

[Augustus]

I know at least in the (oddly enough) Index Astarte World eaters that the the Wolves and the Dark Angels were coming up in force behind Horus. Horus' gambit failed-ish. He wouldn't be able to find and kill the Emperor in time to break the backs of the loyalists. So he lowered the shields of the ship to Lure the Emperor to him.

[lhavoc]

But they were not there yet.

[Augustus]

They were coming up on his rear.

 

edit: they weren't in system but inbound. To be shortly followed by the Ultramarines. 3 Loyal legions and their fleets coming up behind them in the siege would have opened up a new front.