Augustus Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 ‘Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face,’ snapped the Lion, raising a fist. I just read that too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I found myself wondering what place the title "Paladin" holds in the hierarchy of the Legion. There are Captains and Chapter Masters, but Paladins seem pretty important, too. Do we know more about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhavoc Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Hopefully they will fare better than Chaplains, The Lion tends to whack those that disagree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Hopefully they will fare better than Chaplains, The Lion tends to whack those who disobey him. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 Paladins are commanders of the Orders. So they are above Chapter Masters in rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Paladins are commanders of the Orders. So they are above Chapter Masters in rank. In Savage Weapons,I remember that Alajos was Captain of the 9th order, while Corswain the Paladin. Alajos seemed the highest ranking member of the 9th Order (Corswain being equerry to the Primarch being another matter). That makes it all the more confusing, given that, as far as I understand, an Order is made up of Chapters, and well, they have Chapter Masters, too, and having Chapter masters (which command company captains) being commanded by someone with the title "Captain" sounds odd. I guess we'll have to wait for the Forgeworld book for a proper explanation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 It was written well before the dark angels had a legion organization. So chances are ADB intended Alajos to outrank him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 That's what I said. Didn't want to start an off topic, though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 What about titles like Grand Master of the Order such as the one that we find in By Lion's Command?Grand Master commands an order that is consists of several chapters which are obviously led by Chapter Masters.I suppose Paladin are more like champions and stand-in captain/chapter master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Yeah I think its because Savage Weapons was written several years before the exact first legion organisation was laid down by alan bligh. The rank structure is pretty clear in Angels of Caliban. The Grand Masters are probably above Paladin in rank then. There are none in Angels of Caliban. Alajos' rank of 'Captain' could be explained away as being an honorific rank, i.e he is the First Captain of the legion and is referred to as Captain, but is actually of higher rank. Like some of the first captains in other legions. A convoluted and hard to understand rank structure fits the Dark Angels character well I think . Remember, there are also the voted-lieutenants as well, who are senior but sit outside the normal rank structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I sort of took Paladins in Angels of Caliban to be champions but with some command responsibilities. In that early battle the DA are led by a paladin, rather than a master or a captain. All pretty unclear, seconding the need to wait for the FW book. I also wasn't clear on what 'normal' rank Farith Redloss or Holguin were, besides being voted-lieutenants of the Dreadwing and Deathwing. Redloss seems to be treated as a subordinate to the paladin of the 20th order early on, before said paladin activates the Dreadwing protocol and hands over command. I mean Griffayn was bumped down to sergeant but kept his role as leader of the Firewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Griffayn had lost his role as leader of the firewing. Or rather it was suspended (held in abeyance) at the time. The rank of voted-lieutenant is their normal rank. It exists outside the normal rank structure, and they take command when a wing attack is requested by a Dark Angels Commander. They would have previosly been a normal rank, then would have been made a voted-sucsessor, then a voted-lieutenant. They exist outside of the normal structure so they are ready to take command of their wing at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Read the extract. A lot better than Gav's wooden Catechism of Hate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 This was good; Luther in it was charismatic and idealistic, which was a surprise (not having read any of the Calibanite DA fiction beyond the short where Astelan betrays the other Terrans). It of course has to go to poo, boo Zahariel! I loved the layered secrecy and prominent role played by heraldry as iconography - I feel more can be done with this, like layered visual or allusive symbolism (for some reason I am thinking Casino Royale's card-bending titles but a more pertinent thing is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njK2eS-eg24 Do watch if you are interested in (medieval0 heraldry. Overall I liked this, but I wish there was more writerly layering of symbolism in the text (to fit the dense layers of meaning in the first legion - something Gene Wolfe maybe or perhaps medieval in inspiration), and it felt a short text for everything that happened in it. Mais, c'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Also on a further point I think Luther's most astute, most powerful, complaint is that the LA have stolen future generations of Calibanites (and others). I'm very glad someone has at last suggested this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus1138 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I like that in Luther, we *finally* have a 30k or 40k character that was married, though of course no longer. In the grim darkness of the far future, protagonists definitely do not contribute to the newer generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Interesting to note that before even the Lion sent him back, Luther claims that he was the Grand Master of the Order. Then he later claims that he gave up his position as Grand Master of the Order to the Lion.Is he lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I like that in Luther, we *finally* have a 30k or 40k character that was married, though of course no longer. In the grim darkness of the far future, protagonists definitely do not contribute to the newer generation. Yes, it's amazing how little this fits into the world of this period! I think there was the police officer in Nemesis who was possessed by the assassin, and Guilleman's mother (although Konor is dead). Also it adds to his complaint about the Imperium stealing away the best or most skillful children - and removing their ability or interest in procreation in the process. This will have enduring economic, cultural and genetic problems for a world. Caliban is damaged! I mean perhaps Legiones Astartes can reproduce (I remember the boast of Gaunt's best friend in First and Only about his father but that was a lie - yet could LA reproduce? Or at least their sperm be saved?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I like that in Luther, we *finally* have a 30k or 40k character that was married, though of course no longer. In the grim darkness of the far future, protagonists definitely do not contribute to the newer generation. Yeah, this was particularly sad. Imagine going from a wife and child to the company of emotionally stunted living weapons like Typhon. A home life as a respected knight and politician to a life of war in the great crusade. And then it all shifts back when he's banished to Caliban. It's a bit of a change in Luther's characterisation. Previously we had a strong concept of him as being basically the same age as the Lion (primarch age weirdness aside), two young firebrands with nominal equality, blazing a trail and changing Caliban. Now he's a widower who had experienced more of life's joys and sorrows than a feral child from the forest. They were still battle brothers, clearly, but it makes him being passed out by the Lion more poignant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Luther would have forgiven Lion before he start of the schism - if not for the last remark from Lion, and staged 'drama' about 'terranborn' warlocks trying to destroy Caliban. Even greatest mind could be delivered to hell via the lust, greed or hate. Emperor should have never left the Primarchs alone and Primarchs should have never left their adopted fathers alone and in envy. If Konor wouldn't have died before the Heresy events, he definitely would have joined ranks of 'father failures' Kor Phaeron, Luther etc. The Emperor's better should have dropped his webway and better stayed with his kids. It would have saved the Galaxy and untold billions of human souls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhavoc Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I like this new look at Luther as a tragic hero who sees something going horribly wrong on Caliban and trying to save it. He can't trust the Terrans as they appear to be part of it and he can't trust his own adopted son, who may have been corrupted at an early age or may have been recruited by a Terran Emperor into the scheme. The Lion definitely isn't likely to listen given the circumstances. So Luther turns to forbidden knowledge (by The Lion and The Emperor, both suspect sources in Luther's view) and so falls. Wouldn't be the first story of the road to Chaos is paved with good intentions in 40k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus1138 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I like that in Luther, we *finally* have a 30k or 40k character that was married, though of course no longer. In the grim darkness of the far future, protagonists definitely do not contribute to the newer generation. Yes, it's amazing how little this fits into the world of this period! I think there was the police officer in Nemesis who was possessed by the assassin, and Guilleman's mother (although Konor is dead). Also it adds to his complaint about the Imperium stealing away the best or most skillful children - and removing their ability or interest in procreation in the process. This will have enduring economic, cultural and genetic problems for a world. Caliban is damaged! I mean perhaps Legiones Astartes can reproduce (I remember the boast of Gaunt's best friend in First and Only about his father but that was a lie - yet could LA reproduce? Or at least their sperm be saved?). I've always considered this to be a notable flaw in the 40k setting, at least as far as fiction is concerned. Characters don't have wives or husbands, sons or daughters, mothers or fathers. They don't have sex, or paychecks, or vacations, or any number of things that provide story hooks or verisimilitude . For Space Marines many of those things are purposefully absent of course, but their absence isn't really explored either and that's such a missed opportunity. I'm glad that Angels of Caliban at least mentioned the effect of taking your best and brightest completely out of the gene pool, and how people might feel about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 ^ Except in Abnett's writings - in Gaunt's Ghosts and in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books. Marriages, partnerships, families and down time all play big parts in his fiction. Of course this may be part of why, beyond the fineness of his writing, Dan is so successful at making this crazy universe feel real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Is the Lion vs. Curze final battle actually handled well ny Thorpe? Seems like Thorpe has gone out of his way to have the Lion utterly defeat Curze AGAIN (well...maybe not quite as utterly as the Lion beats Curze in Prince of Crows) ...but is the fight well-written? Is it merely DA fan service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Is the Lion vs. Curze final battle actually handled well ny Thorpe? Seems like Thorpe has gone out of his way to have the Lion utterly defeat Curze AGAIN (well...maybe not quite as utterly as the Lion beats Curze in Prince of Crows) ...but is the fight well-written? Is it merely DA fan service? Is because abby cool had him take on 3 primarchs and a demon over the course of 1 book so obviously he's too OP and needs bringing down a touch coz DA are the 1st and need some way of showing this.... Nah in all seriousness it's all the authors and editors sat In a room going yeah it's OK to do that for this novel, we can always retcon it later.. But doubly seriously they needed another way for the lion to show more hypocrisy at the end of the book because if they'd have so much as killed Curze now an entire fandom would've turned on them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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