LutherMax Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Ok got that too - it's in the BRB under Transport Capacity. "Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise." Also, about Jump Units (BRB p65): "Unlike most other unit type categories, 'Jump' is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you'll find it appears before another category - commonly Infantry..." So it's kind of a sub-type. I think the RAW is clear here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Actually that very sentence makes it unclear. The rules do not say that it is a sub-type. "Unlike other unit type categories" tells us that Jump is in fact a unit type category. "you'll find it appears before another category" reiterates that point. The following example even makes it explicit that Jump Infantry must follow both sets of rules: "Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry" So when you have the rule that only Infantry units can embark on a transport, the rules don't work. The unit has to obey both sets of rules. One set (Infantry) says it can embark, and the other says it cannot (Jump). The only way to reconcile this dysfunction is to say that Jump Infantry is the same type as Infantry which is obviously nonsense as they do not have the same set of rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Just a few more hours for the FAQ to drop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Actually that very sentence makes it unclear. The rules do not say that it is a sub-type. "Unlike other unit type categories" tells us that Jump is in fact a unit type category. "you'll find it appears before another category" reiterates that point. The following example even makes it explicit that Jump Infantry must follow both sets of rules: "Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry" So when you have the rule that only Infantry units can embark on a transport, the rules don't work. The unit has to obey both sets of rules. One set (Infantry) says it can embark, and the other says it cannot (Jump). The only way to reconcile this dysfunction is to say that Jump Infantry is the same type as Infantry which is obviously nonsense as they do not have the same set of rules. But the excerpt from the Transport Capacity section is clear and explicit - to me at least. Only Infantry can board Transports except Jump and Jet Pack Infantry. I don't see how that could be any clearer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 But the excerpt from the Transport Capacity section is clear and explicit - to me at least. Only Infantry can board Transports except Jump and Jet Pack Infantry. I don't see how that could be any clearer! The part in parentheses would only be relevant, if Jump Infantry were Infantry. It is not. As such that part is redundant to the statement that only Infantry can embark. Let's use the same structure with a few other words to make it even clearer: "Only water, sugar and citrus fruit may be put in lemonade." This is a clear sentence "Only water, sugar and citrus fruit (this does not include oranges) may be put in lemonade." This sentence is also clear and the part in parentheses adds information because oranges are citrus fruit. "Only water, sugar and citrus fruit (this does not include strawberries) may be put in lemonade." Here the part in parentheses does not add information because strawberries are already excluded by the main sentence, as they are neither sugar, water or citrus fruit. Now how do we know whether Jump Infantry is Infantry? We can go by the name, which obviously is different and so we would need a statement saying that the two different names are equivalent. Such a statement does not exist. Alternately we could go by the properties of the two. They are not the same (jump infantry follows the rules for both types, infantry only for one). So jump Infantry cannot be equal to infantry. So either jump infantry cannot embark in all transports, or Wings of Sanguinius does work on Jump Infantry. It cannot be both by RAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Yeah, and just think of things like a Wraithknight, a Nemesis Dreadknight with personal teleporter or a Riptide, which are a Jump Gargantian Creature, Jump Monstrous Creature and Jet Pack Monstrous Creature respectively if I'm not mistaken. I very much doubt that makes them unable to be counted for anything that just mentions Monstrous/Gargantuan Creatures, like some Maelstrom of War Tactical Objective cards and psychic powers do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Still no FAQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Yeah, and just think of things like a Wraithknight, a Nemesis Dreadknight with personal teleporter or a Riptide, which are a Jump Gargantian Creature, Jump Monstrous Creature and Jet Pack Monstrous Creature respectively if I'm not mistaken. I very much doubt that makes them unable to be counted for anything that just mentions Monstrous/Gargantuan Creatures, like some Maelstrom of War Tactical Objective cards and psychic powers do. That most likely is not the intention, but as written, if they are still of the same type, so is jump infantry of the same type as Infantry and thus would be allowed to embark on any transport as long as the capacity is large enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 @ Quixus, I see, we're talking about this in the context of Wings of Sanguinius (sorry, I missed that - thought we we talking about Transports only). I would say that WoS can target Jump Infantry in that case, because Jump Infantry are still Infantry just like Jump Monstrous Creatures are still Monstrous Creatures. I don't agree with your oranges / strawberries analogy at all. Strawberries are not citrus fruit, oranges are. Jump Infantry are still infantry. Jump is a prefix. They follow the rules for Infantry (which don't mention embarking on Transports by the way, that's in the Transports section) plus the provisions the jump pack allows (12" move, use in movement or assault, HoW etc). It even says under Unit Types > Infantry: "Infantry units include all types of foot soldiers...". I don't understand what there is to not understand, or why you would think Wings of Sanguinius can't be used to target Jump Infantry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Still no FAQ? Give them a chance to have a cup of coffee! Sheesh! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Still no FAQ? Give them a chance to have a cup of coffee! Sheesh! Death before dishonor! Nothing before coffee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 *hits refresh* *hits refresh* *hits refresh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 The Dark Angels FAQ was posted at 3:22 PM British time - which would be approximately 6 hours from now. Other FAQs were all posted in their afternoon as well, sometimes even in the evening. Patience, Brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 The Dark Angels FAQ was posted at 3:22 PM British time - which would be approximately 6 hours from now. Other FAQs were all posted in their afternoon as well, sometimes even in the evening. Patience, Brothers. aaah, poo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 The Dark Angels FAQ was posted at 3:22 PM British time - which would be approximately 6 hours from now. Other FAQs were all posted in their afternoon as well, sometimes even in the evening. Patience, Brothers. What a glorious day. The Radeon RX 480 and the Blood Angels FAQ will be unleashed unto the world on the same day at approximately the same time. My disappointment will be indescribable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Hmm I was going to maybe try and get a game in tonight... Hopefully the FAQ will come out with enough time for me to make a cool list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoridon Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 With the new Dreadnought 'rules', the key things I want to see now are: - Scouts equal to Codex Scouts. - Command Squad having the Champion as optional, to match Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Ah yes a fourth JP Vet with Grav and SS would be welcomed. Hope they will eratta the techmarine as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Okay! So a comprehensive somewhat realistic wishlist (some of which we know already): Dreads: 4 Attacks base / 13|13|10 AV maybe / Cassor Included in 4A buff/ Frag cannon 2D3 Wall of Death Scouts: WS/BS4 Errata Corbulo: Can we affect our opponents dice/ Seize roll? Psychic: Can wings target Jump Infantry/ Confirmation we can use the AoD Disciplines Relics: Is it one per model? Tech Marine: Wounds/ Points Vanguard Veterans: Heroic Intervention/ Upgrade costs Terminators: Points Costs lowered Vehicle Squads: Maybe implement them with same bonuses as codex, potentially even one for Baals Command Squads: Apoth/ Champ upgrades optional Let me know of anything I've missed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrne Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Why do we need confirmation about using the AoD powers? It says on the card / book / white dwarf... if anyone really contests stuff like that, you simply don't play with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Why do we need confirmation about using the AoD powers? It says on the card / book / white dwarf... if anyone really contests stuff like that, you simply don't play with them. 100% agree - but some people are refuting it (it's a case a few pages back in the thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Okay! So a comprehensive somewhat realistic wishlist (some of which we know already): Dreads: 4 Attacks base / 13|13|10 AV maybe / Cassor Included in 4A buff/ Frag cannon 2D3 Wall of Death Scouts: WS/BS4 Errata Corbulo: Can we affect our opponents dice/ Seize roll? Psychic: Can wings target Jump Infantry/ Confirmation we can use the AoD Disciplines Relics: Is it one per model? Tech Marine: Wounds/ Points Vanguard Veterans: Heroic Intervention/ Upgrade costs Terminators: Points Costs lowered Vehicle Squads: Maybe implement them with same bonuses as codex, potentially even one for Baals Command Squads: Apoth/ Champ upgrades optional Let me know of anything I've missed! Cheeky, but - Imperial Marine? Inclusion with BA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 My expectations: Pretty much guaranteed: - 1 Relic per model Very likely: - Scouts and Scout Bikers erratad to WS4/BS4 - Tech Marine erratad to BS5/W2 Possibly, but probably more likely to be in a supplement or codex: - Inclusion of new wargear (grav-cannon, eviscerator, cherub) - Updated frag cannon profile (with solid shot) Won't see until we get a new (campaign) supplement: - Gladius Strikeforce-like detachment of formations (and new formations) - Vehicle Squadrons - New unit(s), a BA specific flyer dual-kit sounds likely Won't see until a new edition of the codex: - Updated point costs for dreadnought weapons, landspeeders, vanguard vets and terminators - Command Squad unit composition change Probably won't get: - AV13 side armour for dreads - Access to vanilla units like Stormtalon/hawk, Landspeeder Storm, TFC or Centurions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 My expectations: Pretty much guaranteed: - 1 Relic per model Very likely: - Scouts and Scout Bikers erratad to WS4/BS4 - Tech Marine erratad to BS5/W2 Possibly, but probably more likely to be in a supplement or codex: - Inclusion of new wargear (grav-cannon, eviscerator, cherub) - Updated frag cannon profile (with solid shot) Won't see until we get a new (campaign) supplement: - Gladius Strikeforce-like detachment of formations (and new formations) - Vehicle Squadrons - New unit(s), a BA specific flyer dual-kit sounds likely Won't see until a new edition of the codex: - Updated point costs for dreadnought weapons, landspeeders, vanguard vets and terminators - Command Squad unit composition change Probably won't get: - AV13 side armour for dreads - Access to vanilla units like Stormtalon/hawk, Landspeeder Storm, TFC or Centurions The vanillas can keep their Stormhawk. I want a BA-exclusive Flyer. Since when did the doggies and robed ones get exclusive Flyers but the DESCENT OF ANGELS chapter does not? Not expecting one in the FAQ, or anything, but in the big picture....yea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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