Blood Angel Flavor Discussions

[Quixus]

You forgot the fist and rifle butt, they too are CCWs. If CCWs can be so diverse in appearance why shouldn't the Glaive Encarmine?

[Omega-soul]

Well, reading all the codicies - Blood angels are alpha-strike.

The whole concept of overhelming - or doing once and for all, or doing nothing.

And this kind of thing is hard to balance and... it's really boring actually.

Imagine this as roster of 10 dakkajets opposes a roster with a plethora squadrons of Flakk Hydras.

Or it's like a battle between 2 superheavies with D strengh - who rolls first - winner. 

 

Personally I think we should have a universall rule that would allowed us to charge 3d6 and. instead of furious charge and initiative nonsence - rending.

Basicly that means we could hurt anything in a battle - like bladestorm but in close combat. Well it could be toned down to be AP3  for usual units and AP2 for special rules.

In this case - I can see how opponents will fear us. So even humble tactical can do some damage - but as the humble necron warrior with gaus. or guardian with shuriken.

[Charlo]

I hope we never lose our charge bonuses, they're so good and what make us unique.

 

Rending would be boring as hell.

[NTaW]

 

 

I remember the profiles (and the arguments when power weapons changed their profile before we got a 6th ed. FAQ), but power weapons have changed and I don't see GW giving an axe and a sword the same rule no matter how much I like what you posted I suppose. Unless the whole game goes back to a standard power weapon profile I'd wager there will be two different profiles for the two weapons despite their similar origins and application.

But they would be the same weapon.

 

A Glaive Encarmine.

 

Same way as a chainsword or a little kinfe is a "close combat weapon"

 

Same as a Paragon blade in 30k can be modeled however you want.

 

Open your mind bro!

I'll be glad to have my mind changed by a new Codex :)

[Xenith]

I actually love that rending idea. The 4th Ed death company had it to represent tearing things limb from limb. Very evocative. I think that would exemplify BA ferocity in combat.

 

Imagine an assault squad with rending.

 

Maybe as a formation bonus?

[Arkangilos]

I actually love that rending idea. The 4th Ed death company had it to represent tearing things limb from limb. Very evocative. I think that would exemplify BA ferocity in combat.

 

Imagine an assault squad with rending.

 

Maybe as a formation bonus?

I think for some units, but not all.

[Helias_Tancred]

If fits with the traits of speed and aggression ... yes.

[Charlo]

Death company, yes! I used to love it.

 

Everything else though? Nah. Keep the furious charge and red Thirst.

[Phiasco]

I like the idea of rending representing a tendency to rip things apart limb from limb :)

 

Remember guys, keep a fluff element to these ideas. Sure a certain amount of wishlistyness will come into the discussion, but keep it wrapped up in fluff please.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Here is my point of view considering the Blood Angels special rules, presented using the CSM Chapter Tactic presentation, and using the White Scars one as comparative.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Blood Angels Chapter Tactics :

 

Chapter Benefit N°1 : Blood Angels models have the Furious Charge and Fleet special rules. A unit composed entirely of Blood Angels models can Run and still be able to charge in the same turn.

 

Chapter Benefit N°2 : Blood Angels Skimmers and Flyers have the Skilled Rider special rule.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Why those Choices ?

 

=> Furious Charge is an evident Blood Angels benefit. For this one, no reason to argue.

 

=> Fleet. I think that Fleet is, a minor rule, that, for Blood Angels have a great impact. Since Blood Angels are an Assault/Charge army, the benefit to reroll Run and/or Charge dice is important.

 

=> Allowing Blood Angels units to Run and Charge. This idea come from the Space Wolves Get Started Formation Rules, and i think that such benefits clearly fit the Blood Angels spirit and fluff.

 

=> Skimmer and Flyers with Skilled Rider special rule. I think it would clearly mark the fact that Blood Angels are the masters of the Sky, as i it cleary explained many times in the Blood Angels fluff, with pilot habilities that few non-BA chapters can reval.

[Charlo]

We do not need skilled rider. That is the scars thing not ours. If anything I'd like to see it like you say but in a formation bonus perhaps? Of land speeders.

 

And fleet plus being able to charge is too powerful and fluff breaking.

 

What fluff reason do we have for running as fast as Wulfen? None. I could accept it with death company maybe, but otherwise we are no faster than other marines.

[Quixus]

Skilled Rider does not do much for skimmers and flyers anyways. Those units only have to take dangerous terrain tests if they start or end their movement in difficult or dangerous terrain.

 

Charging after deep strike would be more fitting IMHO.

[Silverson]

Running and charging is fine on units that move 6" but for anything with a jump pack it's a bit much, up to an 18" run and rerolling the charge dice, isn't that a 24" threat range(with fleet) with average dice for turn one charges, and potentially 30" a turn.

[Charlo]

I still think the ability to move, run and charge is completely fluff breaking.

 

Charging from deep strike is good but it needs some sort of tax or the like, even Tau wouldn't have enough interceptor to stop us (plus, Terminators charging from deep strike - oh myyy).

 

I'd say one limitation would be to keep it restricted to Jump Packs Only - keeps it fluffy and means we don't suddenly get super dreads or Pods?

 

For normal infantry we could get assault Rhinos!

 

Between both of them we'd have a lot of flavor and it keeps ours and the RG's uses of the Jump Packs distinct.

[Baalberith]

Comparing our chapter tactics to other SM chapters...ours only work once (assault)...we are only B.A on the turn we assault, after that we are SM like everyone else expect with lesser special rules and fancy gear.

 

Personally and IMHO, I think we should always benefit from +1str and +1INI on charge...it is not a big deal nowadays...what I would like to see is some changes that would represent the brutality of B.A in CC...because at it stand we loose a lot of oomph after we reach CC, shouldn't it be the other way around? I mean, B.A live to be in CC not to arrive there and then go yeah ok I seen this before...all cool.

 

I would suggest the following changes:

Red Thirst - +1str and +1INI on charge

Black Rage - If a unit gets shot or charges into CC on a roll of 5+ it gains Rage and becomes fearless...in case of the D.C who already have rage they could get rending representing the craziness and "happiness" of being in CC.

 

Again these are mostly CC bonuses, although getting fearless would help us maintain our fire lines...too op? you got 25% chance of getting 1extra attack IF you reach CC and become fearless...

It could be made more interesting for armies like Flesh Teares who are known to suffer more from the afflictions of the black rage, their bonus could be activated on a 4+...instead of the useless rage on a 10 inch charge which you wont get most of the time...trading a permanent +1 INI on charge for a sporadic +1attack seems a bit ridiculous to me...

 

Our vehicles should be assault...period...

 

Regarding the jump packs, I would be happy if on the turn they arrive from deep strike, units could only snap fire them...but then all other chapters would probably complain that they want the same rule. Also, HOW should always be available, even if you move 12...

 

There are tons of permanent non dice activated bonuses for the shooting phase while in the CC phase it is all in the hands of the Dice Gods...

 

Anyway...my 5cents...

[Arkangilos]

Comparing our chapter tactics to other SM chapters...ours only work once (assault)...we are only B.A on the turn we assault, after that we are SM like everyone else expect with lesser special rules and fancy gear.

 

Personally and IMHO, I think we should always benefit from +1str and +1INI on charge...it is not a big deal nowadays...what I would like to see is some changes that would represent the brutality of B.A in CC...because at it stand we loose a lot of oomph after we reach CC, shouldn't it be the other way around? I mean, B.A live to be in CC not to arrive there and then go yeah ok I seen this before...all cool.

 

They do always benefit from it on charge... Unless you mean it stays that way through all rounds of combat. But I disagree. The +1 initiative would be fine if it always applied, the furious charge is fine the way it is.

Black Rage - If a unit gets shot or charges into CC on a roll of 5+ it gains Rage and becomes fearless...in case of the D.C who already have rage they could get rending representing the craziness and "happiness" of being in CC.

 

That's not what the black rage is. The Black Rage happens before battle as a result of psychic trauma caused by the death of Sanguinius. It doesn't happen because they get shot or angry. The way the black rage is represented (through death company with Rage) is fine. .

 

Regarding the jump packs, I would be happy if on the turn they arrive from deep strike, units could only snap fire them...but then all other chapters would probably complain that they want the same rule. Also, HOW should always be available, even if you move 12...

People complaining they don't have something you have is a poor argument for rules. But I think snap fire from deep strike isn't enough. It should be charge from deep strike, but only for Jump Troops.

[Baalberith]

Comparing our chapter tactics to other SM chapters...ours only work once (assault)...we are only B.A on the turn we assault, after that we are SM like everyone else expect with lesser special rules and fancy gear.

Personally and IMHO, I think we should always benefit from +1str and +1INI on charge...it is not a big deal nowadays...what I would like to see is some changes that would represent the brutality of B.A in CC...because at it stand we loose a lot of oomph after we reach CC, shouldn't it be the other way around? I mean, B.A live to be in CC not to arrive there and then go yeah ok I seen this before...all cool.

They do always benefit from it on charge... Unless you mean it stays that way through all rounds of combat. But I disagree. The +1 initiative would be fine if it always applied, the furious charge is fine the way it is.

Black Rage - If a unit gets shot or charges into CC on a roll of 5+ it gains Rage and becomes fearless...in case of the D.C who already have rage they could get rending representing the craziness and "happiness" of being in CC.

That's not what the black rage is. The Black Rage happens before battle as a result of psychic trauma caused by the death of Sanguinius. It doesn't happen because they get shot or angry. The way the black rage is represented (through death company with Rage) is fine. .

Regarding the jump packs, I would be happy if on the turn they arrive from deep strike, units could only snap fire them...but then all other chapters would probably complain that they want the same rule. Also, HOW should always be available, even if you move 12...

People complaining they don't have something you have is a poor argument for rules. But I think snap fire from deep strike isn't enough. It should be charge from deep strike, but only for Jump Troops.

Yeah...what I was saying regarding the furious charge is it only works on charge...after they get locked in CC they become regular marines...I like how it works but I think we need something to help us afterwards....

Dude...if you are trying to follow the fluff...black rage was NEVER represented in game rules...I´ve been playing since codex angels of death and onwards...black rage would be an ongoing factor in game...I remember way back when every turn we had to roll a die, if we get 1 the unit was forced to move making it impossible for whirlwind, devastators and the likes to fire... where did that fit in your "The Black Rage happens before battle as a result of psychic trauma caused by the death of Sanguinius" part of the fluff? Even in the Shield of Leviathan we see that´s an on going thing...while the Fleash Tearers were fighting the Tyranids they were falling to the Black Rage and jumping from safety to engage the tyranids...so sry but that argument makes no sense...

If you could charge from deep strikes with jumpacks it would be broken...use Flesh Tearers formation...get 60 assault marines with meltas/fists/flamers and the likes plus Priests/librarians/Captains whatever...with Command Squads with either full meltas or stormshield and fists/lighthing claws and of course add Sanguinary guard just for the :cusss and giggles...deep strike and destroy 80% of opponents army...yeah...not broken at all

Jump infantry should have something protecting them on the arrival...or affecting people around them so they couldn´t react...IMHO

[Arkangilos]

Dude...if you are trying to follow the fluff...black rage was NEVER represented in game rules...I´ve been playing since codex angels of death and onwards...black rage would be an ongoing factor in game...I remember way back when every turn we had to roll a die, if we get 1 the unit was forced to move making it impossible for whirlwind, devastators and the likes to fire... where did that fit in your "The Black Rage happens before battle as a result of psychic trauma caused by the death of Sanguinius"  part of the fluff? Even in the Shield of Leviathan we see that´s an on going thing...while the Fleash Tearers were fighting the Tyranids they were falling to the Black Rage and jumping from safety to engage the tyranids...so sry but that argument makes no sense...

 

It's evolved. I have every codex since Angels of Death as well. The Black Rage that was the "on a roll of 1, the unit moves forward" has become the Red Thirst. Notice how it says, "Blood Angels are so eager for bloodshed that they become barely controllable in combat. At the start of every Blood Angels turn, roll a d6 for each squad..." (Third Edition Codex: Blood Angels, page 4). 

 

Back then Black Rage and Red Thirst weren't as defined, but with Index Astartes: III, on into current fluff, that description has gone from the Black Rage to the Red Thirst. Notice, in the next column (same page, same codex), under "The Death Company" it says "On the eve of battle, the Blood Angels kneel in prayer... gene-memory of their Primarch's violent death... determine how many warriors in your army have been infused with the Black Rage and joined the Death Company..." At the beginning of the GAME, you would roll for each unit. On a 4 or a 5, one model from that unit joins the death company, on a six, one model joins and you roll again.

 

Notice there, then that those infused with the Black Rage get it at the eve of the battle, and that upon doing so go to the Death Company. 

 

That is STRAIGHT from the third edition codex, which I hold in my hand.

 

Here is the part on Mephiston... "And thus did Brother Calistarius come to Hades Hive to do war against the enemies of the Imperium that had fallen upon the planet of Armageddon and there did he became a victim of the Black Rage. And he went before his Chaplain and was inducted into the Death Company, as is our way, and on the morning did take part in a grand assault..." (Third Edition).

 

Since you mentioned Second Edition (Angels of Death), I actually have that, too. Let's see what the Black Rage is in that...

 

"The Death Company: The Blood Angels are unique in that deeply engraved within their gene-seed is encoded experience of Sanguinius... Sometimes an event or circumstance will trigger this 'race memory'. This happens only rarely, often on the eve of battle... What has become known as the Black Rage overcomes him, the memories and consciousness of Sanguinius intrude upon his mind..." (page 21, Codex: Angels of Death).

[Quixus]

If you could charge from deep strikes with jumpacks it would be broken...use Flesh Tearers formation...get 60 assault marines with meltas/fists/flamers and the likes plus Priests/librarians/Captains whatever...with Command Squads with either full meltas or stormshield and fists/lighthing claws and of course add Sanguinary guard just for the :cusss and giggles...deep strike and destroy 80% of opponents army...yeah...not broken at all

A new codex invalidates old codices, so we wouldn't even necessarily have the FTSF.

On top of that, without other extra rules you would auto-lose with all those deep striking nits unless you have something on the board on turn 1. If you buy so many deep striking units, the opponent has a good chance tabling the rest, unless you play huge games.

Thirdly an SM player can just field as many Skyhammer Annihilation Forces as points allow....

Three SAFs are possible at 2000 pts.

+++ New Roster (1950pts) +++

++ Space Marines: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (1950pts) ++

+ (No Category) +

Chapter Tactics [ultramarines] <- for the re-rolls, but you can take any really

+ Formation (1950pts) +

'Skyhammer Annihilation Force (650pts)

····Assault Squad

········Assault Squad [2x Flamer, Jump Packs, 9x Space Marines]

············Veteran Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Power Fist]

····Assault Squad

········Assault Squad [2x Flamer, Jump Packs, 9x Space Marines]

············Veteran Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Power Fist]

····Devastator Squad

········Devastator Squad [4x Multi-melta, 4x Space Marines]

············Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Signum]

····Devastator Squad

········Devastator Squad [4x Multi-melta, 4x Space Marines]

············Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Signum]

'Skyhammer Annihilation Force (650pts)

····Assault Squad

········Assault Squad [2x Flamer, Jump Packs, 9x Space Marines]

············Veteran Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Power Fist]

····Assault Squad

········Assault Squad [2x Flamer, Jump Packs, 9x Space Marines]

············Veteran Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Power Fist]

····Devastator Squad

········Devastator Squad [4x Multi-melta, 4x Space Marines]

············Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Signum]

····Devastator Squad

········Devastator Squad [4x Multi-melta, 4x Space Marines]

············Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Signum]

'Skyhammer Annihilation Force (650pts)

····Assault Squad

········Assault Squad [2x Flamer, Jump Packs, 9x Space Marines]

············Veteran Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Power Fist]

····Assault Squad

········Assault Squad [2x Flamer, Jump Packs, 9x Space Marines]

············Veteran Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Power Fist]

····Devastator Squad

········Devastator Squad [4x Multi-melta, 4x Space Marines]

············Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Signum]

····Devastator Squad

········Devastator Squad [4x Multi-melta, 4x Space Marines]

············Space Marine Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Signum]

Created with BattleScribe

Jump infantry should have something protecting them on the arrival...or affecting people around them so they couldn´t react...IMHO

I think that was the idea behind the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, sadly GW gave the units unconditional buffs, and the ASM and devastors do not need to work together and can engage units on totally different areas of the battle field.

[LutherMax]

Rather than being able to assault same turn, maybe jump units could get a 5+ cover save in the open the turn they deep strike, to represent dust and debris being kicked into the air by the force of their impact? This would probably be enough of an improvement for Sanguinary Guard - I find them pretty good aside from vulnerability the turn they DS.

 

I do agree that Death Company need something to buff them beyond round one of combat. It doesn't make sense fluff-wise that on the charge they're almost superhuman in their range, then as soon as they start fighting they revert to completely-mediocre-men. In a way you'd expect their rage to escalate with battle rather than dissipate. Maybe Rending is right, or a base re-roll without the need for a Chaplain?!

[Phiasco]

With all the discussion of the Black Rage, I started to think about an idea that's been tossed around on this forum before. What if we were to be given a new unit? Blood Angels whom the Black Rage has hit, but haven't succumbed to it? We have Mephiston and Lemartes as precedent for this. Lemartes does have to be kept in stasis between battles, but Mephiston seems to be somewhat keeping it together. Would these units be even darker symbols of the flaw inherent in the Sons of Sanguinius? Or could they be made into more angelic figures? Silver armored warriors whose very existence is proof that things can be changed for the better, and whose righteous fury is reminiscent of the Angel's himself?

[LutherMax]

I wouldn't like to see Meph or Lem in silver armour - too airy fairy. Their darkness is what's cool about them! We already have the Sanguinor as an angelic figure, and he's already too sickly sweet for my taste. But that's just me!

[Rafen IX]

Day of Revalation and the forge world Legion BA rules fit closest to my idea of Blood Angels in the fluff. Apologies if it's already been brought up. But always wounding on -1 of what it should be is basically permanent furious charge but better. +1 init on the charge, all jumpers arrive turn one with a 5+ cover and all their weapons cause pinning.

It couldn't personify the arrival of the Angels of Death more if it tried.

Even the mental image is amazing, you know it lol

R

[LutherMax]

Day of Revalation and the forge world Legion BA rules fit closest to my idea of Blood Angels in the fluff. Apologies if it's already been brought up. But always wounding on -1 of what it should be is basically permanent furious charge but better. +1 init on the charge, all jumpers arrive turn one with a 5+ cover and all their weapons cause pinning.

It couldn't personify the arrival of the Angels of Death more if it tried.

Even the mental image is amazing, you know it lol

R

Sorry just to confirm – what you've described there are the army wide rules for BA in 30k?!

[Charlo]

 

Day of Revalation and the forge world Legion BA rules fit closest to my idea of Blood Angels in the fluff. Apologies if it's already been brought up. But always wounding on -1 of what it should be is basically permanent furious charge but better. +1 init on the charge, all jumpers arrive turn one with a 5+ cover and all their weapons cause pinning.

It couldn't personify the arrival of the Angels of Death more if it tried.

Even the mental image is amazing, you know it lol

R

Sorry just to confirm – what you've described there are the army wide rules for BA in 30k?!

 

 

+1 to Wound at all times are the base legion rules. As well as Assault Cannon Spam, never Going to Ground and Always Sweeping Advance if possible. Plus not having more tank units than infantry units (dedicated not counting).

 

Day of Revelation is our hallmark Rite of War and adds the following:

 

+1I on the charge

ALL Jump Infantry deep strike first turn and gain a 5+ Cover Save (NOT Shrouded/ Stealth) so can be combined with these. Yes, a Leviathan in a Dread Pod gets a 3+ Cover save for his AV12 Box he can shoot out of.

All infantry arriving by Deep Strike gain pinning on weapons.

 

So yeah, thats why I'm hoping the next plastic heresy box has assault marines :P