b1soul Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 A question about that scene in Path of Heaven It was cool having the Sagyar Mazan redeem themselves, but... Is there any in-universe reason preventing a trap being laid for a primarch, e.g. primarch teleports to the enemy flagship's bridge to find a tactical nuke waiting for him...or a tactical nuke is teleported to the enemy bridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 A question about that scene in Path of Heaven It was cool having the Sagyar Mazan redeem themselves, but... Is there any in-universe reason preventing a trap being laid for a primarch, e.g. primarch teleports to the enemy flagship's bridge to find a tactical nuke waiting for him...or a tactical nuke is teleported to the enemy bridge? LoL - Plot armour it's called Same plot armour that hasn't given Lupercal a chance to burn Terra crust and be done with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherCaptainArkhan Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 There's an enormous amount of importance in 30k (and 40k, for that matter) placed on symbolism and the intrinsic value of symbolic acts, as opposed to purely pragmatic ones. Consider the huge speech on the same subject given by Sorot Tchure in Know No Fear on the symbolism and value of betrayal. It is quite possible that the option you mention simply would not be considered due to the fact that it lacks such symbolism and therefore wouldn't be considered of value by the perpetrators. Why nuke the enemy's bridge from afar when you can prove total supremacy and superiority by claiming his skull with your own hands? I could be talking out of my posterior, just came to my mind. I haven't read Path to Heaven yet either, but I feel like it's a more general comment on the behaviour of 30k characters overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 LoL - Plot armour it's called Same plot armour that hasn't given Lupercal a chance to burn Terra crust and be done with it Horus has to face the Emperor in personal combat. If he'd just virusbomb Terra, there'd be nothing left to claim for himself, and he needs that statement of superiority to cement himself as the new Emperor. He cannot prove that his ways are superior with some nasty tricks alone. If it was just about dominance, he never needed to go to Terra at all and could have just conquered the rest of the galaxy and isolated it. Like Arkhan says, there is power in symbolism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 Well Horus could virus bomb Terra and then make up a bunch of propaganda about how he stomped the Emp in combat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 Symbolism got him killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 It would be pretty boring to read if they did everything the easy way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 I'm still wondering what the dialogue will be between him and The Emperor. In the old lore it's just the big man saying "why?" ... and then Horus goes off on one and then gives the big man a thorough pasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 I'm still wondering what the dialogue will be between him and The Emperor. In the old lore it's just the big man saying "why?" ... and then Horus goes off on one and then gives the big man a thorough pasting. I don't envy whoever ends up writing it. I imagine the whole siege will be very difficult to write in a satisfying way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 A D-B should do it. Apparently he wrote some book recently about The Emperor but it's not a very well known or highly anticipated story I don't think. (Yes, sarcasm ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 I assume they'd be able to run sensor sweeps to be able to tell if there are high-energy weapons in the local area where they're teleporting into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Interestingly, my favourite bit of 'The Hunt for Voldorious' was the ambush that was laid by the rebels to try to catch their enemies' commander just as he emerges onto a teleporter pad. It doesn't work, but it's a hell of a scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Is there any in-universe reason preventing a trap being laid for a primarch, e.g. primarch teleports to the enemy flagship's bridge to find a tactical nuke waiting for him...or a tactical nuke is teleported to the enemy bridge? Dark Creed spoiler: The Word Bearers' war host teleports nuclear devices aboard a conquered White Consul ship thrown at the target planet's star fort at the very last second. Why at the last second? Because Marduk possessed the deceased ship captain's body to fool the White Consuls' high command into thinking they were friendly survivors who couldn't stop their engines because of the damage inflicted by the Word Bearers' fleet. Said high command suspects it's a trap and checks several times for hidden nukes inside the ship and finds nothing until it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 There's an enormous amount of importance in 30k (and 40k, for that matter) placed on symbolism and the intrinsic value of symbolic acts, as opposed to purely pragmatic ones. Consider the huge speech on the same subject given by Sorot Tchure in Know No Fear on the symbolism and value of betrayal. It is quite possible that the option you mention simply would not be considered due to the fact that it lacks such symbolism and therefore wouldn't be considered of value by the perpetrators. Why nuke the enemy's bridge from afar when you can prove total supremacy and superiority by claiming his skull with your own hands?It's important to remember that Tchure is speaking specifically about the inherent power in certain actions as they pertain to Chaos. Now, the culture of the Legiones Astartes does require a cult of personal heroism. Space Marines will thus be drawn to close combat to prove their worth, even when the entire exercise is counter-intuitive. The situation surrounding the last stand of the Sagyar Mazan is a bit different, though, as there are greater stakes than them redeeming themselves. Remember, the Khan also had the ship rigged to explode. Their sacrifice was, ultimately, a stalling tactic. There may very well be Legitimate Reasons as to why the ship couldn't have been set for self-destruction more efficiently, but the author doesn't go into them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Symbolism is always secondary to military objectives and their fullfilment. The end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 We might not be following the same franchise, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 We might not be following the same franchise, then. That's what military service teach you and not the books, written by people who never served Is there any in-universe reason preventing a trap being laid for a primarch, e.g. primarch teleports to the enemy flagship's bridge to find a tactical nuke waiting for him...or a tactical nuke is teleported to the enemy bridge? Dark Creed spoiler: The Word Bearers' war host teleports nuclear devices aboard a conquered White Consul ship thrown at the target planet's star fort at the very last second. Why at the last second? Because Marduk possessed the deceased ship captain's body to fool the White Consuls' high command into thinking they were friendly survivors who couldn't stop their engines because of the damage inflicted by the Word Bearers' fleet. Said high command suspects it's a trap and checks several times for hidden nukes inside the ship and finds nothing until it's too late. And thanks to Anthony Reynolds at least someone figured out to do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 A question about that scene in Path of Heaven It was cool having the Sagyar Mazan redeem themselves, but... Is there any in-universe reason preventing a trap being laid for a primarch, e.g. primarch teleports to the enemy flagship's bridge to find a tactical nuke waiting for him...or a tactical nuke is teleported to the enemy bridge? Wraight does talk about the amount of people and materiel they had to get off-ship. I guess that got in the way of a cleaner tactic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Well Horus could virus bomb Terra and then make up a bunch of propaganda about how he stomped the Emp in combat Horus, in one of the earlier books, the one about the demon-assassin, basically states that he has to do it personally or it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 We might not be following the same franchise, then. That's what military service teach you and not the books, written by people who never served Because "modern" military service is oh so relevant to a science fiction franchise set 30/40,000 years in the future where gods and daemons, demi-gods and superhumans are all over the place and acts of individual heroism mean more than all "war-heroes" of the last decades combined. The necessity for heroism and symbolism is plausible as far as the setting goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Heritor isn't even accurate about today's time, either. Obviously if anyone has been following military policy for the last few years, and decades, symbolism is the biggest part, and combat effectiveness is almost ALWAYS pushed aside for it. Hearts and minds, who can serve where, physical standards, laws of war, etc. As to Horus making propaganda that says he stomped the Emperor in hand to hand instead of fighting him, it's not the common people he will need to convince, it's the Primarchs that followed him. If he cannot prove his strength to them, their legions won't be an asset for him. Remember, they followed him because he was strong. It's like in Ancient Rome when the people and the soldiers followed specific people. Yeah, they could (and did) do sneaky things, but the people only followed them because they could show that they symbolized things much greater. Heck, there are even more recent examples of symbolic battles, like the battle of Stalingrad and the Battle of Verdun. Or like how the French surrender in WW2 happened on the train that the armistice was signed. It could have happened anywhere, but symbolism was the driving factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Horus also mentions that the Emperor has to be killed psychically as well as physically if he's to be properly defeated. But anyway, every teleporter the Swordstorm has is working to get people to other ships. The Sagyar Mazan are already present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Heritor isn't even accurate about today's time, either. Obviously if anyone has been following military policy for the last few years, and decades, symbolism is the biggest part, and combat effectiveness is almost ALWAYS pushed aside for it. Hearts and minds, who can serve where, physical standards, laws of war, etc. As to Horus making propaganda that says he stomped the Emperor in hand to hand instead of fighting him, it's not the common people he will need to convince, it's the Primarchs that followed him. If he cannot prove his strength to them, their legions won't be an asset for him. Remember, they followed him because he was strong. It's like in Ancient Rome when the people and the soldiers followed specific people. Yeah, they could (and did) do sneaky things, but the people only followed them because they could show that they symbolized things much greater. Heck, there are even more recent examples of symbolic battles, like the battle of Stalingrad and the Battle of Verdun. Or like how the French surrender in WW2 happened on the train that the armistice was signed. It could have happened anywhere, but symbolism was the driving factor. There are different military forces in the world. Eastern countries (like Russia) don't even know what 'Hearts and minds, who can serve where, physical standards, laws of war, etc.' is, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Do you have proof? Because I'm pretty sure Russia follows the Geneva Convention. I'm also pretty sure the only military forces that don't are terrorist and drug groups, and they definitely tend to follow in the, "Symbolism is far more important" mindset. And I'm sure I can still find examples of even Russia doing something strategically and tactically unsound for symbolic purposes. Even on the off chance that I'm wrong about this, my original point still proves that you are wrong because you said modern military service, and I provided several examples of how that's wrong. I think your just talking out of your ass, and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Do you have proof? Because I'm pretty sure Russia follows the Geneva Convention. I'm also pretty sure the only military forces that don't are terrorist and drug groups, and they definitely tend to follow in the, "Symbolism is far more important" mindset. And I'm sure I can still find examples of even Russia doing something strategically and tactically unsound for symbolic purposes. Even on the off chance that I'm wrong about this, my original point still proves that you are wrong because you said modern military service, and I provided several examples of how that's wrong. I think your just talking out of your ass, and you know it. Crimean War. Russian expansion to the south is fueled by their religious history. They hoped to reclaim Constantinople, the former heart of Orthodox Christianity. This lead to the French-English alliance to prevent them from doing so (because they were fully able to blow the ottoman empire off the globe) fearing Russia would be too powerful after that. If that's not a symbolic move, I don't know what it is. HeritorA, you should read some Tolstoï and Dostoïevski to get a glimpse of the russian soul. To which, as a french, I feel very close to. And their classical music is just plain great. Appart from Tolstoï, the Crimean War inspired other artists. Such as Iron Maiden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G5rfPISIwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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