Black Book - The Eastern Expansion Campaigns

[MikhalLeNoir]

Leave it as a boxed section for now. The main focus of book 2 is still the campaigns in the east

And as to the fight between Hec, Gwal and Raktra I think we should get the details sorted now. If we leave ot until a later date, it could have knock on effects, be too late to change etc. It's just simpler and easier if we sort any issues we have over it now.

 

Aye.

[bluntblade]

Let's at least wait until Raktra's available

[Kelborn]

I agree on several points mentioned here.

 

Got enough time to have a look on it.

 

Focus should be on the primarchs.

 

Let us wait for raktra.

[bluntblade]

I thoufht mire about a brawl where Gwal and Hec attack Raktra ( think of the pic) with Gwal struggles to keep up thx to his wounds. And then is hacked aside. Hec vs rak. Ra. Gets the upper hand. Hec on his knees. attack of the knights. They are like flies. Enough for gwal to recover. He attacks. With wild attacks. Hec rejoins. Noth attack. Gwal jumps on raktras back. Struggle to stay on it. Raktra splits hecs ahield with the grinder, shield of hec shatters, gwal hacks his blade into the neck, raktra gets hold of gwal and throws gwal like a little puppet onto the walls of terra (bone breaking sound) hec uses the diversion to cut raktras swordhand off. Raktra cries out in pain, hitting hec with the stomp. Knights use the opening fir a suicide attack. Then the same as you wrote it out.

We have tge glory of a really cool battle scene. Hec has his light. Gwal doesn't look as if he is just there ( he isn't just wounded and off, tat makes no sense as then he shouldn't be evne there).

I'm happy to work all this in, except for the first Knights attack. Heck (hoho), we can have Hec hold his own against Raktra long enough for Gwal's first recovery. Then the tables turn again, underlining just how powerful Raktra has become. Plus I feel the Knights' charge has more impact as a single, all-or-nothing throw of the dice.

 

One other preference; the shield doesn't break properly until Gwal has taken his second pummeling. Fits the drama better, I think.

[Sigismund229]

Assuming the shield breaks at all. And why does the Knights last stand need to take outside Eternity Gate? There's plenty of space on Terra for them to make a last act of heroism elsewhere. So they could do something like, alongside those Nightguard who are on Terra, make a stand as the walls fall against Raktra and the Berserkers who are storming up to Eternity Gate. Obviously they wouldn't last long, but maybe just long enough to give Hec and Gwal time to organize loyalist defences around Eternity Gate. That gives them a heroic end without taking the spotlight away from the primarchs too much

[bluntblade]

Well, Raktra reckons that Khârn should contribute directly to the daemon's defeat proper (like I said, this has been envisaged as the end point to his story for ages) rather than ending up as a stepping stone to it. Buying a few minutes really isn't that significant in this context. Throwing him off balance and wading into a battle that's so far beyond their level of power to do so - that caps off the conflict on a way that's more fitting. And aside from anything else, the Eternity Gate battle should be raging long before Raktra shows up.

 

It's broadening the spotlight, not stealing it. And at the end it's still the two Primarchs, despite their injuries, dragging the daemon down. Because another factor is that over the course of that battle they are taking serious wounds, being subject to physics in a way that Raktra simply isn't.

[bluntblade]

Perhaps the attack doesn't physically cripple him, but inflicts absolute, pure agony on him. I'm also wondering about having Raktra seize Khârn and their final exchange be:

"When even your masters fall before me, this is your last act? To become another body on the pile?"

Khârn: "Death comes for us all. Now it does for you" (jams fulgurite into Raktra's wrist)

[Nomus Sardauk]

If I may, I'd like to bring up an old idea regarding this fight that I put forward in the past but I'm not sure anyone remembers, given how Fulgurite is a pretty damn rare resource I'd like to show off Khârn & Nux's new Nightguard know-how by having them turn Raktra's daemonic status against him by invoking his True Name (i.e. the one the Emps gave him upon his creation that he never knew, not Raktra Akkaro, which he was given on Uran) that they learned from the Emperor/Malcador. This binds Raktra's essence to the speaker's will and seriously disorientates/weakens him, though he swiftly murders Khârn in retaliation the act is enough for Hec & Gwal to have a fighting chance were they had none before.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Uhmm... When we placed Raktra vs Hec and put Gwal at his side (originally it was Icarion storming the gate and killing every defendant with ease) it was AFTER we discussed the "Shadow Crusade". Let have Hec Revenge (If he survived the blood shadow crusade) so it was a story of vengeance and in Gwals Case of Redemption and will over body. When did your Khârn story came? When were the shepards auch a big factor? They are compared to the rwat a new developement ( i. Its importance) kharns story was when created? At the beginning of the year? Did you ask: hey guys, I want to have Khârn meet raktra at the eternity gate. Aomebody has something against it?

We could have then pointed out, that we had something else in mind. But you didn't. You just dropped a hint here and there and when Sig said something against it you pushed the topic aside and said it will ne cleared later. But you did work on your vision what is understandable, but please please pleas listen to our concerns. And don't say: it was the story of Khârn and the shepards all along ( Khârn was first the janitor in the wardens main ship).

I for my part have no problem with them beeing there, helping etc. But putting them so much in the focus steals away the spotlight from the primarchs, especially as it goes against ine and the same foe at the same time. So now we have a dilemma. Bht maybe I have a solution. So when the berserkers and eagle warriors break through. And no! They didn't fight there for days etc. I think niklaas positioned them there as last means ( and normal enemies are no match for a primarch ao they can fight on and on and on And on can skip that)

 

So when the attackers consisting of greater deamons, knights etc. storm the gate, the tide sweps hec and gwal away from the wntering raktra and the ahepards are simply the first to reach him. The fulgurite is hammered in raktras body weakening him. The differemce here is, that the primarchs don't look chanceless and you can never tell: was it the shepards doing? Would the primarchs combined power beem enough to win against raktra? You never know. And that is the trick. In ongoing centuries the followup chapters of the shepards can say that it was their liege Khârn who weakened raktra, while the lions refer to their daemonkiller hec and the wardens say it was thanks to gwals help that raktra was defeated and a big friendship was established between the two brotgers who were.before the battle not the closest ones.

 

Just my two cents on this.

 

And why do I always write khorne instead of Khârn???

[bluntblade]

Mikhal, I ran this past you months ago. Like, back in May or earlier. It was built up from a bunch of people's ideas, and based on your response at the time I thought we had the two strands integrated properly.

 

Edit: PM'd you, just to straighten everything out.

[MikhalLeNoir]

I replied to you.

[bluntblade]

For anyone not in the various messages, it's getting sorted out. Had a sit down and a long, hard think.

[Kelborn]

And thus, peace returned.

Only to let us write more about war! :devil:

 

 

 

Glad that you found a way out of this. Curious about the results. :)

[bluntblade]

Essentially, I think we're looking at a Gordian Knot here. One spotlight, without enough room for everyone. Either the Knights cripple Raktra and make two Primarchs look less badass than we want them to be, or Khârn dies for a momentary delay, which isn't really a fitting end to his quest for justice.

 

So I think the Knights should do their thing elsewhere during the Siege. As an alternative to taking on Raktra, they could strike at the commanders of his Legion, killing Riktus Innorvak and others, so that no one remains who can hold the Berserkers together once Raktra is banished.

[Big Bad Squig]

Is there any reason I should delay working on the Dune Serpents' entry?  I've begun to start writing their fluff section in earnest, and was wondering whether the plan was to continue waiting for progress on Book 1 or to go straight ahead.

[MikhalLeNoir]

As far as I understood it you can write it now but if needed you should return to book 1

[bluntblade]

Is there any reason I should delay working on the Dune Serpents' entry? I've begun to start writing their fluff section in earnest, and was wondering whether the plan was to continue waiting for progress on Book 1 or to go straight ahead.

Couldn't hurt, I guess. Does the Viper Fangs stuff in the Fall of Aureus sound OK to you?

[Big Bad Squig]

 

Is there any reason I should delay working on the Dune Serpents' entry? I've begun to start writing their fluff section in earnest, and was wondering whether the plan was to continue waiting for progress on Book 1 or to go straight ahead.

Couldn't hurt, I guess. Does the Viper Fangs stuff in the Fall of Aureus sound OK to you?

 

 

Yeah, I'd missed that, but it looks good.  As a rule of thumb I'm absolutely happy for others to come up with Renegade or Traitor Serpents as long as they don't go too far from the Legion's theme

[bluntblade]

 

 

Is there any reason I should delay working on the Dune Serpents' entry? I've begun to start writing their fluff section in earnest, and was wondering whether the plan was to continue waiting for progress on Book 1 or to go straight ahead.

 

Couldn't hurt, I guess. Does the Viper Fangs stuff in the Fall of Aureus sound OK to you?

 

Yeah, I'd missed that, but it looks good.  As a rule of thumb I'm absolutely happy for others to come up with Renegade or Traitor Serpents as long as they don't go too far from the Legion's theme :)

I'd like to discuss how they might change if at all over the course of the Insurrection, so I'll post in the Serpents thread about it at some point soon.

[simison]

Is there any reason I should delay working on the Dune Serpents' entry?  I've begun to start writing their fluff section in earnest, and was wondering whether the plan was to continue waiting for progress on Book 1 or to go straight ahead.

 

So long as you keep the Godslayers moving forward, feel free to do work on the Dune Serpents whenever you're waiting on me or Grifft to make a deliberation.

[bluntblade]

When do the Warbringers come in? Because I was thinking that the Scions could successfully repel the Warbringers in one major battle, with the two Primarchs duelling. During the fight, Pionus manages to rattle Kozja. Something like Kozja never understood why the Emperor censured his Legion and their project; that he didn't understand their purpose was to safeguard Man's evolution, not be the end goal of that process. And at the end he slips in what the Emperor was working to defeat, the mutating power of the Warp that Kozja, in his obsession with genetics, never respected. "Now look at those beside and above you, Kozja, and tell me. Can't you see it? The puppeteers lurk in the Warp, using you. You'll never rule over humanity, unless it is in their name."

[Sigismund229]

The Warbringers don't step into this book. This one covers the Void Eagles vs undetermined and Dune Serpents vs Stygian Jackals

[bluntblade]

Shall we make it a red box in the one where the Warbringers break away, then?

[simison]

Bluntblade: Shall we make it a red box in the one where the Warbringers break away, then?

 

It might serve better as a short story.

 

Here are the thoughts I had on the topic, while at Heresy30k:

 

[i like the legion overlap idea. And, the primary writers will probably be myself and a couple of others. The actual creators for the Serpents and the Jackels are MIA ever since B&C crashed.

 

"Alright, the book's introduction is going to briefly cover the first three years of the conflict. Dang it, I now remember that Sig had done a little writing for Book 2, wonder if we can save it. We also need a Preface. After those two, we'll have the first campaign. It'll focus on the Serpents trying to find Azus, their Primarch. It starts with them launching a rapid strike against an outpost where they find the info. No, think that should be included in the general history chapter. Instead, it'll focus on the Serpents launching the rescue mission with a strike against the planet where Azus is imprisoned. Given the Jacke's predilection for opportunity attacks, let's not have them be the defending force. It'll be a combination force of Warriors of Peace, Warbringers, and the Traitor Wardens under Malis. 

 

Then after achieving initial successes, the Jackels along with a contingent of Traitor Serpents will come flying in to outflank and destroy the Loyalist Serpents. Although they inflict terrible casualties, the Loyalists manage to free Azus, restore his arms and armour, who then leads the counter-attack against the Jackels. Azus and Willym will come to blows before someone has to retreat. Probably the Traitors to help break the Traitor's winning streak.

 

The other campaign will feature the Void Eagles, who will be defeated to help set-up Icarion's push for Terra in Book 3. I believe Yucahu is trying to secure the Ghoul Stars, let's say he's trying to keep open a Northern corridor between the Imperium in the West to their holdings in the East. We should feature the third and a potentially fourth Insurgo detachments here, one of them definitely has to be the Traitor Void Eagles. But should the Insurgos be the primary Traitor force or should we bring in a proper Traitor Legion and Primarch?

 

Regardless, despite a heavy fight, Yucahu is forced to retreat and the Imperium loses the North corridor."]

 

[The Serpents and Jackels are our hit-and-run legions. So, we're going to have an emphasis on lightning strikes between those two. Maybe one or two pitched battles between them, with ambushes and unexpected reinforcements galore. The Void Eagles are our void specialists, so their campaign should be a major fleet engagement, complete with boarding actions. 

 

Again, should we do 2 or 3 campaigns?]

 

General rip suggested that the campaigns overlap. 

[bluntblade]

Maybe we bring in Malis' traitors alongside the Insurgos?