Another Sisters Codex Re-Write (Major Update - See OP)

[Servant of Dante]

Most Recent Version: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6I7dUBoJLwfZ3pjWnd1TC1Gdlk

[Grgobart]

I'm interested!

[Pr3Mu5]

I'm interested

[Isolia]

I'm curious too !

[CaptainHelion]

Yes hello here I am

[A.T.]

Yep. With so much of the sisters old shtick being done by other armies it's interesting to see where fandexes take them.

 

 

 

Codex writing seems to be a common hobby amongst sororitas players. Need to stop procrastinating about my own one.

[Aqui]

I won't take an active part of this (I'm not very good at making rules ), but if you need any help with formatting etc, I'll be able to help.

[Servant of Dante]

Ok then! I got tied up doing other stuff yesterday, but I'll post the boy I have in a couple minutes!

 

Didn't expect to get so many people on board :)

[Servant of Dante]

OK, so first, major credit to Lynata over on the FFG Community forums. They don't play anymore, but they know a ridiculous amount about Sisters fluff, and contributed a bunch of ideas to this project. While I'm doing all the writing and templating, the concept is really about 50/50 between us.

I do not intend to add new units to the codex, but I will bring a few back that have been lost (Kyrinov, Praxeded, Helena, Fraternis Militia). The one exception so far is the addition of Novices, though they will be added to units model by model.

Sisters Superior will all have the current VSS stat line (like how it's done in IG and the 5E BA 'dex). Instead, models in the unit will be able to be upgraded to "Veteran Battle Sisters" with the same stat line as the Sister superior.

SoF does not grant an invulnerable save in this re-write. This is mostly a fluff interpretation thing, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion in full.

I won't take an active part of this (I'm not very good at making rules ), but if you need any help with formatting etc, I'll be able to help.

I'll be reformatting my Disciples of Zaureboes codex for this, but that's just a Word document. If you have experience with anything fancier than that I will certainly take you up on your offer!

See the Original Post for the codex link!

Here are the Act of Faith rules that I have (Sisters Superior will be Faithful (1), and you will notice that I'm essentially using the Witch Hunters 3.5 AoFs. Word of the Emperor from GWs Inquisitor specialist game will be incorporated as well. Since tying Faith Points to Sisters Superior encourages smaller squads, the AoFs which require you to roll under squad size are cheaper to attempt, and BSSs over 10 models will be getting an unrelated bonus).

Here is the Shield of Faith special rule (all special rules and wargear will go in thw Special Rules section or the Wargear section of the codex, even wargear and relics specific to a single unit or character).

What do you think?

[Servant of Dante]

Edit: see above post

[Grgobart]

Well, I'll be honest here. I was hoping for some new ideas and I never really was a fan of the whole Faith Points system!

It does have the benefit of balancing out AoF of different strenght via Faith Point cost, I'll grant you that.

On the positive side, my opinion usually deviates quite heavily from everyone elses and in my experience there are many fans of the old Faith Point system among Sister players.

Nonetheless, I will still look at how the rest of your fandex will turn out, so don't be discouraged.

Codex writing seems to be a common hobby amongst sororitas players. Need to stop procrastinating about my own one.

Yeah, I remember having quite some fun doing so myself! Until I realized the one thing I really needed to do to make it perfect was to rewrite not only every other Codex out there, but also the whole game itself!!! And that's where I personaly drew the line for myself, between hobby and obsession.

EDIT:

And immediately into editing since the BSS stats are there!

Are the two wounds for the Veteran Battle Sisters intentional? and re-edit that out again! (we should stop writing at the same time! )

[Servant of Dante]

Do you think it would be workable to let the player upgrade sisters to veteran sisters one by one rather than making them upgrade either all or none of them?

 

We (Lynata and I) would like to do that.

[Grgobart]

Do you think it would be workable to let the player upgrade sisters to veteran sisters one by one rather than making them upgrade either all or none of them?

 

We (Lynata and I) would like to do that.

You could, I guess. Not much different than Black Templars used to be with their Neophytes. I'm just not sure what exactly the intention behind it might be?

[A.T.]

A few thoughts -

 

The faith structure suggests that every unit is intended to be able to have a shot at faith every turn, with increased chances as the army loses sisters (more rerolls) and get their superior killed off unless saving points for deny the witch.

 

Deny the witch - rather than bonuses have you considered allowing the sisters to trade points for dice, maintaining the normal randomness and structure of the deny roll?

 

Faith - every sisters squad will roll for divine guidance, every turn, with a few rare exceptions.

 

Format - you may want to update to the new 7e style - unit type icon top left, points top right, faction iconography above the name in the middle. Also the unit composition is typically top-aligned even if that does not match with the units position in the data block. The unit names in the data blocks are also normally left-aligned.

 

Battle Sisters - they would not appear to need the "Light of the Emperor" in their entry, unless that is the only faith power they can manifest?

 

 

In traditional GW-FAQ style you may also want to clarify how faith is handled for units in transports and buildings :p

[Servant of Dante]

Do you think it would be workable to let the player upgrade sisters to veteran sisters one by one rather than making them upgrade either all or none of them?

We (Lynata and I) would like to do that.

You could, I guess. Not much different than Black Templars used to be with their Neophytes. I'm just not sure what exactly the intention behind it might be?

The idea is that is would be more thematic. It would make sense that there might be a few members of a squad who are more "veteran" than the rest. I find myself undecided on which way to go with this one.

replies in red

A few thoughts -

The faith structure suggests that every unit is intended to be able to have a shot at faith every turn, with increased chances as the army loses sisters (more rerolls) and get their superior killed off unless saving points for deny the witch.

yes, you are allowed to use an AoF for each unit, if you have enough Faith Points. Some of the AoFs cost multiple Faith Points, and you can also pay an extra FP for a reroll on the test.

Deny the witch - rather than bonuses have you considered allowing the sisters to trade points for dice, maintaining the normal randomness and structure of the deny roll?

Good point. I originally moved away from that when I thought I would be giving out fewer FPs each turn, and it never occured to me to go back when the number of FPs/turn increased.

Faith - every sisters squad will roll for divine guidance, every turn, with a few rare exceptions.

I can up the cost to 2 FPs (or even 3) if need be. The "roll under" AoFs cost less than the "roll over" AoFs in order to give a bit more incentive for running larger units, since the way to get the most FPs is to run MSUs.

Format - you may want to update to the new 7e style - unit type icon top left, points top right, faction iconography above the name in the middle. Also the unit composition is typically top-aligned even if that does not match with the units position in the data block. The unit names in the data blocks are also normally left-aligned.

I don't intend to give each unit a whole page. The bit in gold I will definitely do, thank you! Personally, I prefer the older codex formatting - saying the Force Org slot at the top of the page, multiple units per page, and so on. I see no reason to use an arrow icon when the word "Troops" works just as well. I'll consider it, but I feel like those graphics just add extra thing for people to memorize (not that it's hard, just seems unnecessary). The current format is kinda a blend of the current Sisters 'dex and 5th edition codices, with a few bits pulled in from 7E books.

Battle Sisters - they would not appear to need the "Light of the Emperor" in their entry, unless that is the only faith power they can manifest?

That is the name of a Special Rule. I posted what it does below the picture. I couldn't come up with a better name, so I just stole that one from the current 'dex for now. It gives them Fearless if they are over 10 Sisters. Just another incentive to run larger units.

Edit: Dangit! I forgot that Hand of the Emperor was one of the 3.5 AoFs too! I'll change the BSSs rule toa different name. Thanks!

In traditional GW-FAQ style you may also want to clarify how faith is handled for units in transports and buildings

Good catch! In keeping with the FAQ, they shouldn't be able to in transports, since "they aren't on the board." I'd want to allow it for buildings, but I'm not sure if that conflicts with the core rules.

Thanks for the reply!

[Servant of Dante]

Missed this! replies in red.

Well, I'll be honest here. I was hoping for some new ideas and I never really was a fan of the whole Faith Points system!

It does have the benefit of balancing out AoF of different strenght via Faith Point cost, I'll grant you that.

well, I did try to think of a better way, but I really couldn't. Sorry about that. I'm actually excited about this one, since you don't have to track FPs across turns (except for the ones you save for deny the witch)

On the positive side, my opinion usually deviates quite heavily from everyone elses and in my experience there are many fans of the old Faith Point system among Sister players.

Nonetheless, I will still look at how the rest of your fandex will turn out, so don't be discouraged.

Codex writing seems to be a common hobby amongst sororitas players. Need to stop procrastinating about my own one.

Yeah, I remember having quite some fun doing so myself! Until I realized the one thing I really needed to do to make it perfect was to rewrite not only every other Codex out there, but also the whole game itself!!! And that's where I personaly drew the line for myself, between hobby and obsession.

Oh, I happily call the Sisters my obsession. Don't care/know enough about the other factions to re-write them. Besides, I prefer to work within the framework GW provides.

EDIT:

And immediately into editing since the BSS stats are there!

Are the two wounds for the Veteran Battle Sisters intentional? and re-edit that out again! (we should stop writing at the same time! )

[Teetengee]

Nice start!

Couple thoughts:
1. I would just give you an extra denial dice for every faithful unit and character you have alive. Ignore remembering how many you had left last round. (Additionally, I would probably charge about 15 points per unit, which means your base unit will probably cost 15-30 points more than unit size/per model cost would suggest. This I feel is particularly good as it gives a slight buy in bulk benefit which decreases the utter dominance of msu, never a bad thing.)

2. I wouldn't charge more than 11ppm these days for basic battle sisters. The statline is probably worth 8-9 and the faith rule 2-3 and Light as worth about 5-10 per unit. However, most points cost stuff should probably come after the rules get more ironed out, simulacrum, for instance, will probably need a points boost.

3. I feel like more thought should be put into which faith rolls are under/over. Part of me thinks that units that have lost more models should have an easier time (but not necessarily smaller units) as they have the selfless bravery of their sisters to spur on their faith. Part of me thinks that the death of those around them might make them question their faith and make it harder. Additionally, I feel like ones used early game (such as shooting buffs) should be for larger squads and ones that would be more useful late game (assault buffs, leadership things) should be for smaller units, as it makes the roll useful throughout the match.
4. Just some vets in a unit is probably fine, but if they aren't getting access to power weapons I would not charge them more than 1-2 points per model for +1 attack (and a mostly useless +1 ld?), as that is all CSM and SW pay for it (and they have higher WS, S, T, I....).

5. Divine Guidance, Passion, Hand of Big Mack Daddy all are close combat buffs. You have one leadership buff. I would suggest adding 2 more powers (which will give you 6+light of the emperor as a good mirror to disciplines, although yours are in a sense more flexible). Additionally, since sisters are primarily a shooting army, I would give switch Divine Guidance to reroll 1s to hit in shooting and add another shooting buff and a defensive buff. (Maybe an invuln? Stealth/Shrouding? toughness boost???, FNP?)
6. Do you want a copy of the format I use to create homebrew codices? I have refined it a bit so that it is pretty easy to read/write. I use google docs to make it so that I can update in real time for anyone using it (although you can always download a copy for stable function). It also lets me hyperlink stuff so that rules that show up multiple places can have links to them from the unit, and other similar aspects, to ease use.

[dracpanzer]

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Adamantium Will special rule, and units containing at least one model with this rule may not be the target of Psychic Powers manifested by friendly psychic models or units. Additionally, models with this rule ignore the effects of the Instant Death special rule when wounded by weapons with the Force special rule.

Seems like a penalty for those who are looking for some allied psychic boost with a benefit that really isnt. I

 

Ignoring instant death on single wound models? Are you making BSS two wound models?

 

I would rather have the option to buff my sisters and the invuln.

[Teetengee]

 

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Adamantium Will special rule, and units containing at least one model with this rule may not be the target of Psychic Powers manifested by friendly psychic models or units. Additionally, models with this rule ignore the effects of the Instant Death special rule when wounded by weapons with the Force special rule.

Seems like a penalty for those who are looking for some allied psychic boost with a benefit that really isnt. I

 

Ignoring instant death on single wound models? Are you making BSS two wound models?

 

I would rather have the option to buff my sisters and the invuln.

 

I forgot this bit. I would not give Sister's immunity to Force. 1. It's a Khârn thing. 2. It is mostly unhelpful and more frustrating than fluffy (negative play experience type rule).

[Servant of Dante]

First, thanks for all the feedback. I will reply below in red to everything.

For some of this, I may just have different expectations for this codex - different opinions and interpretations from your own. I will always do my best to explain why I did something, and, if I don't want to use one of your ideas, I will try and let you know why.

Nice start!

Couple thoughts:
1. I would just give you an extra denial dice for every faithful unit and character you have alive. Ignore remembering how many you had left last round. (Additionally, I would probably charge about 15 points per unit, which means your base unit will probably cost 15-30 points more than unit size/per model cost would suggest. This I feel is particularly good as it gives a slight buy in bulk benefit which decreases the utter dominance of msu, never a bad thing.)

I might charge 10oints, but I don't want to charge more than the cost of a model extra per unit, especially since the current codex units pay exactly points/model, even with their AoFs. I don't want to make players track how many faithful models they have left. I want it to only matter at the beginning of the game. It's just a bit more simple that way. I could just give the Sisters player an extra d6 denial dice every turn. That would remove the need to track how many Fiath Points you didn't spend.

2. I wouldn't charge more than 11ppm these days for basic battle sisters. The statline is probably worth 8-9 and the faith rule 2-3 and Light as worth about 5-10 per unit. However, most points cost stuff should probably come after the rules get more ironed out, simulacrum, for instance, will probably need a points boost.

OK

3. I feel like more thought should be put into which faith rolls are under/over. Part of me thinks that units that have lost more models should have an easier time (but not necessarily smaller units) as they have the selfless bravery of their sisters to spur on their faith. Part of me thinks that the death of those around them might make them question their faith and make it harder. Additionally, I feel like ones used early game (such as shooting buffs) should be for larger squads and ones that would be more useful late game (assault buffs, leadership things) should be for smaller units, as it makes the roll useful throughout the match.

The powers and the tests to activate them come from the 3.5E Witch Hunters codex (I acn make changes if I feel they are thematic). And you have hit the crux of why I like the over/under system. It allows us to represent the AoFs that are easiest when in a group, the power of faith strengthened by their numbers. Other Acts of Faith are more "Acts of the Martyr," and should be performed easily by small model counts.

Really though, every Sister is prepared to die for the Emperor. It would take more than getting repeatedly rolfstomped to make them doubt their faith. I'm trying really hard to not come off annoyed, because I get a little . . . angry almost (in an irrational way) when someone questions the faith of the Sisters. I'm working on it.

4. Just some vets in a unit is probably fine, but if they aren't getting access to power weapons I would not charge them more than 1-2 points per model for +1 attack (and a mostly useless +1 ld?), as that is all CSM and SW pay for it (and they have higher WS, S, T, I....).

OK.

5. Divine Guidance, Passion, Hand of Big Mack Daddy all are close combat buffs. You have one leadership buff. I would suggest adding 2 more powers (which will give you 6+light of the emperor as a good mirror to disciplines, although yours are in a sense more flexible). Additionally, since sisters are primarily a shooting army, I would give switch Divine Guidance to reroll 1s to hit in shooting and add another shooting buff and a defensive buff. (Maybe an invuln? Stealth/Shrouding? toughness boost???, FNP?)

Again, these are the 3.5E AoFs. I can certainly add more. One should note that Spirit of the Martyr was originally an invuln save equal to the model's armour save, but I thought that might be too powerful.

6. Do you want a copy of the format I use to create homebrew codices? I have refined it a bit so that it is pretty easy to read/write. I use google docs to make it so that I can update in real time for anyone using it (although you can always download a copy for stable function). It also lets me hyperlink stuff so that rules that show up multiple places can have links to them from the unit, and other similar aspects, to ease use.

I think I'm happy with what I have. I am personally most interested in what the codex will look like when printed.

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Adamantium Will special rule, and units containing at least one model with this rule may not be the target of Psychic Powers manifested by friendly psychic models or units. Additionally, models with this rule ignore the effects of the Instant Death special rule when wounded by weapons with the Force special rule.

Seems like a penalty for those who are looking for some allied psychic boost with a benefit that really isnt. I

Ignoring instant death on single wound models? Are you making BSS two wound models?

I would rather have the option to buff my sisters and the invuln.

I forgot this bit. I would not give Sister's immunity to Force. 1. It's a Khârn thing. 2. It is mostly unhelpful and more frustrating than fluffy (negative play experience type rule).

I'll reply to these together, since you seem to be in agreement.

Psychic Stuff: I am trying to penalize people who run witches with their Sisters, or at least make sure the witches stay away from the Sisters. It is just so unfluffy I have no problem with this. I considered putting in a penalty to how many Faith Points you get if you run Psykers, but I settled for a simple immunity to Blessings. (I also considered a system of letting the Sisters deny blessings from allied Psykers, but it would have been really messy). If you want to use psychic blessing on your Sisters, this may not be the codex for you. I think it's very unlikely I will change this.

Instant Death: It would mostly apply to multiwound characters, but also to models who have FnP for one reason or another.

It's a Khârn thing: Sisters had this immunity to Force in the Witch Hunters codex (2003) so it was a Sisters thing in the same edition (yes, Khârn had it a year earlier in '02). In any case, I would be willing to remove this bit, and add a different benefit of some kind. I agree that it is not especially useful, but it is pretty cool.

[Servant of Dante]

I have a couple more things to say about these two points.

3. I feel like more thought should be put into which faith rolls are under/over. Part of me thinks that units that have lost more models should have an easier time (but not necessarily smaller units) as they have the selfless bravery of their sisters to spur on their faith. Part of me thinks that the death of those around them might make them question their faith and make it harder. Additionally, I feel like ones used early game (such as shooting buffs) should be for larger squads and ones that would be more useful late game (assault buffs, leadership things) should be for smaller units, as it makes the roll useful throughout the match.

I think that the AoFs have the correct tests. They fit with my interpretation of "Acts of the Victor" and "Acts of the Martyr" so to speak.

5. Divine Guidance, Passion, Hand of Big Mack Daddy all are close combat buffs. You have one leadership buff. I would suggest adding 2 more powers (which will give you 6+light of the emperor as a good mirror to disciplines, although yours are in a sense more flexible). Additionally, since sisters are primarily a shooting army, I would give switch Divine Guidance to reroll 1s to hit in shooting and add another shooting buff and a defensive buff. (Maybe an invuln? Stealth/Shrouding? toughness boost???, FNP?)

Hum. I should make it more clear - Divine Guidance affects both shooting and cc attacks. 

OK. Well, Spirit of the Martyr already gives Feel No Pain. I might switch that one to an invuln, but I think that might be too powerful. Waaaaaaait . . . Spirit of the Martyr didn't make it into my post . . . I'll fix that real quick. Thanks!

 

I don't think too many AoFs are necessary. I suppose I could add in Holy Fusillade (Ignores Cover) which would give me 6 total AoFs. That would be another "roll under" AoF.

 

 

Edit: I may make Divine Guidance for shooting attacks only.

[dracpanzer]

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Adamantium Will special rule, and units containing at least one model ....Psychic Stuff: I am trying to penalize people who run witches with their Sisters, or at least make sure the witches stay away from the Sisters. It is just so unfluffy I have no problem with this. I considered putting in a penalty to how many Faith Points you get if you run Psykers, but I settled for a simple immunity to Blessings. (I also considered a system of letting the Sisters deny blessings from allied Psykers, but it would have been really messy). If you want to use psychic blessing on your Sisters, this may not be the codex for you. I think it's very unlikely I will change it.

I get that you are trying to keep the witches out, but whats the benefit to compensate for it? AoF in every version I've seen are far more limited than SM chapter tactics. If you remove the sisters 6++, then go further and limit the Sisters from benefiting from allied psychic powers, what do they gain in return?

[Servant of Dante]

 

Shield of Faith: Models with this rule have the Adamantium Will special rule, and units containing at least one model ....Psychic Stuff: I am trying to penalize people who run witches with their Sisters, or at least make sure the witches stay away from the Sisters. It is just so unfluffy I have no problem with this. I considered putting in a penalty to how many Faith Points you get if you run Psykers, but I settled for a simple immunity to Blessings. (I also considered a system of letting the Sisters deny blessings from allied Psykers, but it would have been really messy). If you want to use psychic blessing on your Sisters, this may not be the codex for you. I think it's very unlikely I will change it.

I get that you are trying to keep the witches out, but whats the benefit to compensate for it? AoF in every version I've seen are far more limited than SM chapter tactics. If you remove the sisters 6++, then go further and limit the Sisters from benefiting from allied psychic powers, what do they gain in return?

 

hum. I thought being able to do multiple AoFs of your choice every turn would be enough. I could make Spirit of the Martyr a 5++. Mostly, you'll probably get a bit of a points cut. We could also work on "Chapter Tactics" for the 6 orders majoris.

 

GIven that I'm not giving the 6++ back, and that I am keeping the psychic nerf, what kind of bonus would you suggest?

[Aqui]

I understand that you're trying to stay fluffy regarding no pyskers in Sisters armies, but what about using Sisters in Inquisition armies? I'm currently building an Inq army with a Sisters CAD ally. If your list was official, I'd never be able to run it without severe penalty. Sisters don't like psykers - fact. But they tolerate Inquisition psykers because they have been mandated by Him on Earth himself (okay, the High Lords of Terra, but you know what I mean...)

[Servant of Dante]

I understand that you're trying to stay fluffy regarding no pyskers in Sisters armies, but what about using Sisters in Inquisition armies? I'm currently building an Inq army with a Sisters CAD ally. If your list was official, I'd never be able to run it without severe penalty. Sisters don't like psykers - fact. But they tolerate Inquisition psykers because they have been mandated by Him on Earth himself (okay, the High Lords of Terra, but you know what I mean...)

The Inquisitor could buff Inquisition units (I know that's not what you want).

 

I just don't like Sisters and psykers. There needs to be some penalty. Would you rather lose Faith Points equal to your total Mastery Levels each turn? I could go for that, and there would be precedent for it in the 2E Rites of Battle. Maybe your army's faith goes down by one for each unit with the psyker, botherhood of psykers/sorcerers, or psychic pilot rule in your army, rather than just total mastery level. That way you could bring a ML2 psyker at only a -1 penalty to Faith.

 

Oh, and I got the Farteris Militia done!