LOC - The Suzerainty

[Doctor Perils]

Seing as the Halo Stars seems to be pretty much all around the middle of Segmentum Obscurus (the far side of the Eye of Terror from Terra), it seems more like Vostroya would be more in between Mexicatii and Strela

 

EDIT: before we forget, Talonair is suggesting a Cold War idea between Mars and Lucius + Steel Legion, over the Steel Legion having too much techno-lore then Mars would like - how does that sound to you Sanguiniusreborn?

[simison]

In which case, Vostroya will have dodged the Crimson Lions' Pacification campaign. After the First Solar War, there are still efforts to secure the rest of the rebelling territories, but the focus will be on containing the Insurrectionists.

 

All this to say, there is a legitimate 50/50 chance that Vostroya manages to maintain its neutrality as in canon.

[Doctor Perils]

In terms of political organisation, I found that the true historical meaning of a Suzerainty could be an interesting way of implementing the Suzerainty here too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzerainty

 

I could easily see a large-ish unified realm formed around the Oneiron Cluster, and the respective realms of the Warriors of Peace (once they are resettled) and the Steel Legion that is directly ruled by a Triumvirate (or Quadrumvirate depending on if the Reformed Selenar genecult are included here), that then have a loose agglomeration of tributary protectorates including Lucius, Cypra Mundi and so on. The tributes from these protectorates would probably have a very different form compared to Imperial Tithes, possibly something like 'a new scrap of technology every decade' or something like that?

 

Further, whereas the symbol of the Suzerainty as a whole would be the Vitruvian man, I quite like the image of three interlocked wrists as an image for the "Heartland" that is ruled by the Triumvirate (mirorring the gesture the three primarchs made when creating the Suzerainty)

[bluntblade]

I think the old Selenar would have been thoroughly broken down over time. Also Kozja would want them very much subordinate to him.

[Nomus Sardauk]

Agreed, Kozja would almost certainly take steps to ensure the Selenar stay in line. Maybe Nomus could assist in this matter as he's never really trusted Techpriests of any stripe, (the Selenar are Techpriests, right? Magos Biologis?) so he'd probably be more than willing to develop some kind of countermeasure to keep the Selenar in their place. Maybe he crafts some kind of computer virus into the Selenar's systems as they're setting up their domains in Suzerainty territory, something he, Kozja or Jade can activate later if the Selenar get uppity?

[Doctor Perils]

As Skalpynock mentioned on Discord, the Selenar Gene-cults are a separate entity from the Mechanicum, and in canon-verse they are still around (though dying off) at the time the Alpha Legion start attacking the Solar System.

 

In our 'verse, though the First Solar War takes place much later, we do also have a fair amount of apothecary-oriented Legions, and so the Selenar Gene-cults may well have a better time surviving. TBD

 

What do you think about the general idea of having semi-independent Realms within the borders of the Suzerainty (that are also independent from Mars, which is how they could be lured to side with the Triumvirate)

[Nomus Sardauk]

What do you think about the general idea of having semi-independent Realms within the borders of the Suzerainty (that are also independent from Mars, which is how they could be lured to side with the Triumvirate)

What do you mean by "semi-independent?" Like are they effectively separate realms that are merely allied to the Suzerainty, or do they have their own governments and laws but pay tithes of resources and manpower to the Suzerainty?

[Doctor Perils]

They'd be tributary states, whose foreign policy is decided by the triumvirate, but who are left more or less to their own devices otherwise.

Personally, I'd like to see the tribute they pay something less direct then man-power and ressources, but only because it would be too close to the Imperium's model

[Skalpynock]

The Forge Masters

 

While the Suzerainty was composed of initially traitor Legions, it would also be joined by defectors from the Imperial side, including a number of Astartes. Of note among these was the 4-17th Company of the Void Eagles. Comprising a little more than fourteen hundred Astartes, the 4-17th was directed by a senior Astrotechnician, whose technical experiments bordered on the heretekal, as with many in the 4th Fleet. Disgruntled at the dogma that dictated that Astartes could never rise through the ranks of the Mechanicum, Captain-Astrotech Gerasim would readily seek refuge in the Suzerainty founded by the three Primarchs known for their scientific mindset. While accusations of espionage always threw a shadow over them, they would prove their worth not in warfare, but by establishing several modification of Astartes wargear that would become common practice in the IX, XVII, and XVIII Legions, such as modular Dreadnought sarcophagi, and contribute to the rise of Astartes-portable Multilasers.

[Doctor Perils]

Right, with development on the first books wrapping up, and the next legions to come out well on their way, it might be time to start exploring the Suzerainty again - we will probably want to start introducing plot hooks in the concerned legion redbooks after all.

 

Some questions to be considered :

1 - what factions are concerned

2 - why do these factions form or join the Suzerainty

3 - what are the Suzerainty's antagonists, ie who do they fight before Madrigal

4 - how is the Suzerainty organised? Centralised government, federal, tributary relationship...? Also, are we going ahead with the "Fellowships" and are they joint operations between the three legions, do they include minor offshoots/blackshields, or will they be strictly part of the Warbringers?

5 - How do they diverge from the Imperium, culturally and technologically?

6 - what of the Mechanicum and Forge Worlds in the Suzerainty? Do the Selenar Genecults survive there or not? Are there any other organisations that emigrate or are formed, and alternatively what organisations are *not* ported over? (Eg, is the Nightguard a joint affair?)

7 - What of astropaths and Navigators? Does the Steel Legion's collective take over from the Astropaths? Do the navigators send members to the Suzerainty and if not how does travel work for them?

[Doctor Perils]

Anyway, here are my answers, but haven't got any fixed ideas (which is why I didnt want to provide them in the same post):

1 - obviously the IX, XVII and XVIII Legions, but also a few splinter forces (eg Skalpy's Forge Masters). Some Forge Worlds (Lucius being the most prominent) and Knight Worlds

 

2 - Mostly because they didn't like the direction the Imperium was going in, but were also weirded out by the forces of Chaos. Imo, they attempt to form an empire "by astartes, for astartes", as opposed to the (early) Imperium's "by astartes, for humanity". Just like the Imperium, this ideal should later form into a dystopia, but should have a different form (think elements of biopunk and cyberpunk)

 

3 - it looks like the Godslayers should be out of the picture at least at the Suzerainty's inception, as the Incident at Zbruch is happening more or less at the same time. Elements from the Berserkers and Eagle Warriors should easily be able to attack the south West at the time of the Blood Crusade (probably some more unruly elements who see an opportunity, which leads them to leave their posts, leading to a defeat round Cadia as Ixiptatlan and Raktra are expecting reinforcements that never arrive)

The Grave Stalkers are also good candidates as their Primarch was just murdered by the Suzerainty Primarchs, and they are in the right geographical region. I'd also like to see some kind of Imperial attack, perhaps from the Iron Bears?

 

4 - Whilst I had originally pushed for a kind of central kernel belonging to the Legions, with Forge World tributaries, Im now wondering whether a more centralised government might not make them stand out more from the Imperium - depending on how the collective works across interstellar distances, it might become a lot more feasible in a small corner of the galaxy, compared to the separate sectors of the Imperium.

I still like the idea of the Fellowships, and see them fragmented into different parts (eg, Trade Companies). I do think they shouldn't be limited to the Warbringers, but I'm actually not entirely certain the two other legions would be up for them? However, splinter factions from other legions could join them imo.

 

5 - Culturally, the Suzerainty cling to the Imperial Truth, and are not afraid of progress. However, they remain afraid of Abominable Intelligence.

Technologically I seem to recall members having suggested much more experimentation, ie not sticking to STCs. I don't think however that all standardisation should be chucked out of the window entirely.

I'm also not sure all technology the Imperium has access to should automatically find its way into the Suzerainty - one example Skalpynock and I had discussed was limiting anti-grav technology, which seems to be more the schtick of the Iron Bears and Wardens of Light (for example). However, more recent discussion of grav-forteresses has me doubting limiting anti-grav technology. Perhaps plasma? TBD

 

6 - in the same way as the Imperial Creed is forbidden, imo the Omnissian Creed should be forbidden - after all, in a more science based society, engineers won't retain belief in the machine spirit and by extension belief in a god of machines. Where does that leave Forge Worlds? I'd argue for a more academic kind of thing, a bit like Cambridge and Harvard in SPAAACE. Would these still be Forges? I'm not certain, TBD

I'm not sure about the Selenar Genecults, but I'm also not sure how the WoP genetic research manifests itself nowadays - should they all be englobed into a larger Asklepian? Would they form their own colleges? Also TBD

 

7 - from what I gather of the collective, Astropaths become redundant. I think an element of dystopia could be reinjected by having the Suzerainty breed mortals to be plugged into the collective, but as a mortal's brain has not evolved to cope with the sheer size of this cyber-dimension, they have to be regularly replaced.

The Navis Nobilite should probably renounce their ties to the Suzerainty legions, forcing them to try and create new Navigator genes. These should not be as good as the Navis Nobilite ones, plus without the wealth of knowledge of the Houses warp travel is even more perilous for the Suzerainty, explaining why they never bother the Imperium overmuch - they physically can't expand any further out

[Grifftofer]

I agree with Doctor Perils, that the Grave Stalkers would make for a good antagonist to the Suzerainty in their early years. On K'awil's death the Grave Stalkers effectively splinter, but pretty much all of them would have a strong hatred for the three Suzerainty Legions and given their proximity I suspect there would be a lot of anger being vented in that direction. Most of it would be smaller scale things, but constant harassing of supply lines and disappearances of important personages would likely drain resources that would otherwise go into stabilising the budding Suzerainty. At the other extreme, there would be some groups with access to large numbers of Reapers that can be used as suicide troops, throwing them at bigger things like critical dockyards or going after allied Fabricator Generals on their Forges (Perhaps some might even be sent after the Suzerainty Primarchs).

 

At the moment I haven't got much planned for the 15th post K'awil's death, so I think having them go this route gives them something to do even if, from Icarion's point of view, they are no longer as useful and potentially not controllable anymore having broken up into smaller warbands. Later on (after the Insurrection) I intend for Ajaway to reforge them somewhat as he will have control of Hotna Kintz'am (The GS gloriana), which contains the remnants of the people of Kabyieb (and best hope for the future of the legion).

[Kelborn]

I could imagine a splinter force of the XXth becoming a blackshield and fighting for the Suzerainty. Probably those, who cling to the old traditions of the Pre-Andezo the most (= Terran / Mandalorian ones).
Either acting as some sort of mercenary or outrider force, raiding the borders of the Imperium. Haven't yet decided where to place its homeworld, though the basic idea behind that would be a mixture of an Halo Array and Horizon Zero Dawn setting, which could be interesting for the Suzerainty. Or rather attached to some Forge Worlds, searching for lost archeotech and such.

 

Especially as they are followers of the Imperial Truth, etc. would the Suzerainty be a wellcome new harbor for them. As long as they are welcomed. ;)

[Beren]

As per a Discord discussion with Nomus, the Steel Legion are going to be throwing the Cognis out of the Coronid Depths and Cyclops cluster during the initial break away. The Cognis launching a campaign specifically against Suzerainty Forge Worlds as revenge/opportunistic tech raids/ a display of power could cripple them enough to make them far more pliable when the Suzerainty Primarchs are trying to phase out the Cult of the Machine God, which otherwise may prove somewhat volatile to eradicate.

[Kelborn]

Btw. where did we place the Suzerainty again? There was a map, right? Keep forgetting it, close to the Dominion perhaps?

[Doctor Perils]

Its more or less the eastern half of segmentum obscurus (minus the eye of terror and whats beneath it, which is part of the dominion)

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I would think that the Suzerainty would start as a Triumvirate and then changes after the war.

[Doctor Perils]

But is that triumvirate centralised or more "each Primarch has a chunk"?

 

Also, what of the other questions ^^

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I think more centralized is what I was thinking. Other than that, I need to think about the others, but you have a good starting point for the group.

[Nomus Sardauk]

1 - what factions are concerned

2 - why do these factions form or join the Suzerainty

3 - what are the Suzerainty's antagonists, ie who do they fight before Madrigal

Thorn has covered all of these adequately so I've nothing to really add.

 

4 - How is the Suzerainty organised? Centralised government, federal, tributary relationship...? Also, are we going ahead with the "Fellowships" and are they joint operations between the three legions, do they include minor offshoots/blackshields, or will they be strictly part of the Warbringers?

I think to begin with the Triumvirate rules supreme with perhaps a High Lords of Terra-style council of important figures beneath them executing their orders. I'm fine with the Fellowships growing and extending to become an inter-Legion entity, maybe even separate organisations in and of themselves that any citizen of the Suzerainity can become a part of if they can match the demanding criteria.

 

5 - How do they diverge from the Imperium, culturally and technologically?

I mostly agree with Thorn here also, save for the lack of anti-grav issue, as it seems bizarre to me that the technologically-progressive Suzerainty would lack such tech while the backwards, stagnant Imperium could still produce it. Make no mistake, I'm not saying the Suzies are the only ones with it, I could easily see the IBs and Mechanicum still managing to produce such machines in limited numbers, whereas less-technically inclined groups like the WoL would only have a limited supply of such vehicles, like with the Dark Angels and Sammael's Jetbike Corvex, with each one being an immensely precious and nigh irreplaceable relic. Of course the Suzie will need to lose a few techs to make things fair, but I think that requires a separate discussion to determine who gets what.

 

6 - what of the Mechanicum and Forge Worlds in the Suzerainty? Do the Selenar Genecults survive there or not? Are there any other organisations that emigrate or are formed, and alternatively what organisations are *not* ported over? (Eg, is the Nightguard a joint affair?)

I echo Thorn's answer on this, although I could imagine the Suzies having to root out the occasional underground Omnissian Cult cropping up. I'm not sure if the Suzerainty is involved with the Nightguard or to what degree they are if so, although I could see the Suzies possibly producing some of the NG's more advanced anti-psyker/daemon equipment, perhaps as part of the Treaty between them and the Imperials.

 

7 - What of astropaths and Navigators? Does the Steel Legion's collective take over from the Astropaths? Do the navigators send members to the Suzerainty and if not how does travel work for them?

Regarding the Collective, I think a small clarification is needed, the Collective is the SL's specific network, exclusive to their use and is the most advanced of it's kind. The general purpose networks that the SL create across Suzerain space after it's establishment are separate from it (although SL forces and Suzerain Techmarines/priests can access and make use of it), and can be accessed by personal with appropriate clearance. Back to your question, it's a bit of a yes and no, I imagine Astropaths are still required for communications between star systems, but in-system comms are handled by the local system Network and are faster, more reliable and generally better quality than astropathic messages in that regard thanks to the infrastructure set in place by the SL.

 

As for Navigators, I imagine once the Insurrectionists start going down the dark path their Navigators would be among the first to find out given their powers (and if anyone knows to fear the Warp it's them), so I feel the Suzerainity would be able to easily recruit a number of the traitors' Navis, as well as taking their fleets' own with them. That said, Thorn's idea of the Suzies maybe not having enough Navis and having to make their own via gene manipulation is a very cool concept that deserves further discussion.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Here is what I think so far:

1 - what factions are concerned

1a- The three founding Legions, Some parts of the Mechanicum, Knight Houses, and some Titan Legions.

2 - why do these factions form or join the Suzerainty

2a-Same as Thorn.

3 - what are the Suzerainty's antagonists, ie who do they fight before Madrigal

3a- Same as Thorn.

4 - how is the Suzerainty organised? Centralised government, federal, tributary relationship...? Also, are we going ahead with the "Fellowships" and are they joint operations between the three legions, do they include minor offshoots/blackshields, or will they be strictly part of the Warbringers?

4a-Already discussed aboved.

5 - How do they diverge from the Imperium, culturally and technologically? 

5a- Same as Thorn,

6 - what of the Mechanicum and Forge Worlds in the Suzerainty? Do the Selenar Genecults survive there or not? Are there any other organisations that emigrate or are formed, and alternatively what organisations are *not* ported over? (Eg, is the Nightguard a joint affair?)

6a- I would think that some groups from the Imperium might try and emigrate to the Suzerainty, but stuff like the Genecults will be put down. Need to think about this more.

7 - What of astropaths and Navigators? Does the Steel Legion's collective take over from the Astropaths? Do the navigators send members to the Suzerainty and if not how does travel work for them? 

7a-I would say that the Navigator Houses would try to step up a presence in the Suzerainty and would be one of the many factions that the they have to deal with given their connections to the Imperium. I need to think about this more. 

 

The Genecults and the Navigators would be good internal threats that the Suzerainty would have to deal with.

[simison]

Right, with development on the first books wrapping up, and the next legions to come out well on their way, it might be time to start exploring the Suzerainty again - we will probably want to start introducing plot hooks in the concerned legion redbooks after all.

 

Some questions to be considered :

1 - what factions are concerned

2 - why do these factions form or join the Suzerainty

3 - what are the Suzerainty's antagonists, ie who do they fight before Madrigal

4 - how is the Suzerainty organised? Centralised government, federal, tributary relationship...? Also, are we going ahead with the "Fellowships" and are they joint operations between the three legions, do they include minor offshoots/blackshields, or will they be strictly part of the Warbringers?

5 - How do they diverge from the Imperium, culturally and technologically?

6 - what of the Mechanicum and Forge Worlds in the Suzerainty? Do the Selenar Genecults survive there or not? Are there any other organisations that emigrate or are formed, and alternatively what organisations are *not* ported over? (Eg, is the Nightguard a joint affair?)

7 - What of astropaths and Navigators? Does the Steel Legion's collective take over from the Astropaths? Do the navigators send members to the Suzerainty and if not how does travel work for them?

 

1. As suggested elsewhere, the Steel Legion, the Warbringers, and the Warriors of Peace are the prime instigators and founders, along with their respective allied forces. The Selenar Gene-cults have been a suggested addition, along with more radical/Athiestic members of the Mechanicum.

 

2. The Suzerainty is founded shortly after the Blood Crusade. The Suzerain Primarchs have now had the chance to meet Raktra as a Daemon Primarch and are outright horrified by Icarion's decision to fully enlist the powers of Chaos. However, by this stage of the war, the Imperium have openly invited Xenos to join the Imperium, and there are undoubtedly signs of the new, proto-Imperial Creed overcoming the former Imperial Truth. This is a dealbreaker for defecting back to the Imperium, and Kozja is the one who suggests creating their own empire, gambling that Icarion's cause is doomed but will be threatening enough to force some kind of deal from the Warmaster. 

 

3. Their obvious first target is K'awil and the Grave Stalkers with him before they carve out a territory north of Strela, East of Saepio, and West of Jin. I believe a list of targets has already been suggested elsewhere. After this mad dash grab for territory, they are forced to defend against a very irate Icarion who unleashes Raktra and the Berserkers, in addition to more 'normal' Traitors. At this time, the Godslayers are corrupted and they are sent to break the Suzerainty in its infancy, but the alliance with the Imperium happens first. 

 

4. I pictured the Primarchs standing, equally, at the top of the Suzerainty with the Space Marines/Lords acting as the ruling class ("obviously, given their longevity, their superior intelligence, and being freed from earthly/female distractions"). Outside of that, I've not thought of many details since I wanted to see what others created.

 

5. Repeating from earlier, I picture the Suzerainty as the Soulless Technocracy compared to the Regressive Theocracy of the Imperium. The Suzerainty will certainly have the advantage of technology comapred to the Imperium (perhaps their base infantry weapon is the volkite?), but they suffer from the usual problems that have plagued modern Communist states. One can usually find that a heavy emphasis on materialism generally leaves populations suffering from heightened degrees of depression and hungry for the 'deeper' things of life, consciously or unconsciously. The break from religion also means no priests in the Suzerainty, though I'm not sure if there should be some kind of 'loyalty/morale' officer equivalent (commissars?). 

 

In war, this means the Suzerainty has a leg-up on the Imperium when dealing with physical threats, but Chaos can and regularly does trounce them. 

 

6. Given the Steel Legion/Nomus' less than stellar opinion of the Mechanicum, I can see the Mechanicum slowly being bled out over time and are replaced to something much more palatable to the Suzerainty.

 

7. Unless the Collective can cross the Warp, I just don't see how the Suzerainty can exist without these two classes of psykers. Granted, the idea of the Suzerainty slowly creating their own gene-bred versions, freed from the traditionalism of the Imperium's, is an interesting idea. 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I feel like you will find greater numbers of Dark Mechanicum groups in the Suzerainty compare to the Imperium.

[bluntblade]

And also perhaps some calamities resulting from straying outside the sensible boundaries where tech is concerned.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Should the Suzerainty have a equivalent to the High Lords of Terra?