Prot's Deathwatch Batrep w/Pics : VS. Genestealer Cult 1850

[Echelon]

Thank you for the batrep. I have played a few smaller point games and found it difficult to do anything in those games. Deathwatch has to have something we're missing. I want so very much to bring these guys to ITC and not get wiped out. I've watched people take Dark Eldar to tournaments and win. So, with this newer codex there has to be something. I'm starting to play around with the idea of running two kill teams, one in a pod with the Becon Angelis pulling in a land raider like Prot mentioned above. Still after checking the math it is nearly 900 points for the BSSF->Strageium Command Team -> Purgatus Kill Team. This includes like 11 models.

 

I have my doubts.

[Prot]

Yea it's the bane of the army. You literally have no cheap units/models, but everything dies like a marine. So with that in mind if you have a trick up your sleeve in a small model count Deathwatch, it has to hit like a truck. (Or be able to take a big beating which is usually not the case.)

[Vel'Cona]

Thank you for the batrep. I have played a few smaller point games and found it difficult to do anything in those games. Deathwatch has to have something we're missing. I want so very much to bring these guys to ITC and not get wiped out. I've watched people take Dark Eldar to tournaments and win. So, with this newer codex there has to be something. I'm starting to play around with the idea of running two kill teams, one in a pod with the Becon Angelis pulling in a land raider like Prot mentioned above. Still after checking the math it is nearly 900 points for the BSSF->Strageium Command Team -> Purgatus Kill Team. This includes like 11 models.

 

I have my doubts.

 

In pure DW, I think we may not be able to find a way out.  There's just nothing we can take for cheap bodies/beatstick units that isn't available elsewhere with more options or for less cost.  I'm not saying DW are useless (far from it), but they simply don't have enough tools to play solo like C: SM or C: Tau can do so well.

[Sheesh Mode]

Prot, have you started supporting your Deathwatch drop with Rhinos yet? Also, consider using the Beacon on a combat squad of veterans with Combi-weapons. You need bodies to support the Aquila.

[Prot]

I've played one variant with 2 Rhino's. Honestly it was so-so in results. I've done this experiment a few times, and I think if a few people have tried it we should start a new thread on it! :)

[Honda]

In pure DW, I think we may not be able to find a way out.

 

 

Well, the original incarnation of DW was one add on unit that was super powerful and super expensive. However, it was intended to supplement your existing capabilities and give you some cool toys to play with.

 

I suspect that perhaps that's what it really ought to be doing, based on what you guys are saying. It should be matched up with other forces that help do some of the heavy lifting.

[Vel'Cona]

You're probably right.  And I think guys like Prot and myself are just sad that the codex we waited like 15 years to play doesn't really stand on its own.  Whether it should or shouldn't is a matter of opinion, but I suppose what we were hoping for is a codex that would work equally well as a "pure" list than entirely as a supplemental one.

[Echelon]

I say give it some time. I am still building my Deathwatch force with the goal of winning the 2018 LVO with pure Deathwatch. It is not going to be easy and it will take a lot of fine tuning and learning what the top lists are and how to beat them. 

 

I know everyone is going crazy with the beacon, but I honestly feel The Osseus Key is quite amazing for the current competitive meta. I still think people are coming at this codex incorrectly and it will take some time before they get out of the cemented list creation that C:SM and other space marine codices have put most people in.

 

Regardless, I will be posting my progress as it comes. I'm setting up for around a 500ish point game in about two weeks. I'll toss up a bat rep shortly after that.

[Prot]

 

In pure DW, I think we may not be able to find a way out.

 

 

Well, the original incarnation of DW was one add on unit that was super powerful and super expensive. However, it was intended to supplement your existing capabilities and give you some cool toys to play with.

 

I suspect that perhaps that's what it really ought to be doing, based on what you guys are saying. It should be matched up with other forces that help do some of the heavy lifting.

 

 

 

If this is true (which I don't think it is inherently) the Codex should have been a supplement at most. It should have been Legion of the Damned at most, and a datacard in the least.

 

They tried to make a codex off of a weapon. 

 

GSC is incredibly potent. A real game changer. The difference in background is one thing, the difference in delivery and design of the codexes is another. I feel GW phoned in the Deathwatch and let the models get them the numbers they wanted. 

 

There are so many cases of poorly written elements to the Deathwatch and it is poorly implemented with a lot of missed opportunities and some cases (I won't bore people with examples) of outright assinine rule writing and implementation on a unit level right up to the largely useless and pathetic "Black Spear Strike Force"

 

Sadly, to even relegate this codex to 'Ally' status is something I struggle to find merit in. In almost every case you're better off with 1St Co Ultramarines from Codex Astrartes. To heck with Frag, save your points. Get Preferred enemy + Reduce Leadership + Re-rolls against any unit + Fearless. 

 

There's a reason Youtube is almost devoid of Deathwatch Batreps. There's a reason the 'buzz' went in one ear, out the other inside of a month.  The competitive players left this forum a month ago.. They still hang in Grey Knights though! (The other elite army some would claim is of Ally status at best... I disagree though.)

 

 

 

 

I say give it some time. I am still building my Deathwatch force with the goal of winning the 2018 LVO with pure Deathwatch. It is not going to be easy and it will take a lot of fine tuning and learning what the top lists are and how to beat them. 

 

I know everyone is going crazy with the beacon, but I honestly feel The Osseus Key is quite amazing for the current competitive meta. I still think people are coming at this codex incorrectly and it will take some time before they get out of the cemented list creation that C:SM and other space marine codices have put most people in.

 

Regardless, I will be posting my progress as it comes. I'm setting up for around a 500ish point game in about two weeks. I'll toss up a bat rep shortly after that.

 

I would LOVE you to do this. Heck get even close and I'll be cheering for your efforts.

 

I kept waiting for the 'real deal' to drop. I anticipated they milked the fan boys (us) and then awaited our "Sky Hammer" or a unit like a Dreadknight, or a real formation, something... anything. I thought it would drop after GSC to coincide with fighting the Xenos. We struggle at Xenos play horribly. And I mean real Xenos armies that you're going to see in tournaments.

 

I just had a game vs. Marines (I don't get to play against marines very often, they are mid tier in most competitive environments)... it was an actually 'winnable' game. I won't say if I won or not, but the ability to face something that you have a real chance against and an actual weapon that focuses against Power Armour... heck I felt like a xenos player saying stuff like: Sorry no armour save for you. ;)

 

I believe in order to commit to that idea of going to ITC finals with Deathwatch you would have to find a way to take the Juggernauts:

1.  Eldar. Not requiring fancy formations. They are so incredibly potent, they don't need free because they are largely undercosted. To this day it amazed me when I heard the guys who wrote the last Eldar also wrote Codex Deathwatch! 

 

You will be slower, and you will face tough decisions between denying cover or a save. You will probably have trouble getting Frag as a template to work here. They just hop away. Yet they will deny a lot of saves for your army. The Wraithknight is a whole other issue. 

 

I tried to make Heavy Hammers work. GW messed up if Black Shields can't take them, Even so they are so horrifically over priced in the army it hurts too many elements of your army to focus Gargantuans with H.Hammers. 

 

Speed and small numbers, and range is going to be your problem here. (It is in my test games.) Although it's not as common, you can fall prey to the Psychic phase here.

 

2. Tau. Small model count but here every model is -incredibly- destructive. Beacon is good here as it gets past the Interceptor. The problem again is Deathwatch don't actually possess good Xenos tools, so that Stormsurge (or two) is going to be a problem. Dousing Riptides in poison is okay, but if Tau get first turn, getting past 2+/5++ is too impractical. This is one case where you will have more models on the table but be hard pressed to focus down the giants on the other side in time to have the model count left to count your Tertiary (ITC) scoring, etc.

 

3. White Scars. Grav + Free vehicles + ObSec Blobs. It's not a huge winner in ITC. But it's up there. The games are longer, the White Scars battle Co is based on higher numbers, and board control. This is why you can't take a pure BSSF to ITC. Other armies that don't care about ObSec are far more destructive. Armies that care about ObSec care less about being super destructive and trade it to some degree for board control and hope not to draw Kill Point missions in ITC against the wrong foe (IE: Tau)

 

This is such a tough matchup for DW.

 

4. Psychics: I originally thought DW would be a clever army to stack minor Psykers. It doesn't work because our cheapest unit is just too cost prohibitive, and at the end of the day you don't have enough psychics with enough "strengths" to overcome the armies that do this well, or even mediocre... heck even GSC will rock you in that phase if you're not ready. I really think Sisters and/or Culexus is becoming mandatory for me... which stinks. I already have model count issues. Daemons, Grey Knights, Eldar, and man.. wach out for "Mind Control" (this is ridiculously good) and "Cyclopia Cabal" for the same reasons. 

 

5. Deathstars: Another area was severely lack in for some reason. For some unknown reason we lack relics to tank, we lack relics to outright kill. Another 'phoned in' area of hte codex. To take on a Deathstar with this codex is really hard. I'm not talking about your average stuff here, we're talking ITC, 2+ FNP Iron Hands + Wolves + Draigo Gate kind of stuff. 

 

6. Meta Busters: Khorne Daemonkin... we don't have the bodies, and free stuff makes it harder. We don't have the inherent weapons for Daemons, and they will be into you in one turn, 2 at most. Here's were Grav actually isn't so great, and our flamer stuff is, the problem is our range and lack of vehicle protection is really putting us out there. 

 

Meta Busters like Genestealer Cult (I anticipate this is the meta buster for the remainder of 2016). I've played against it numerous times now and you cannot separate against this army. Having Short range is another big problem, and you MUST kill everything or it disspears, and grows in size.... I put this army in the same category of difficulty as KDK.

 

So those are my top 6.

 

I figure this is my thread, so I'm going to be a little more honest in it as my intent is to share information, not turn people off. But if you're like me, and you go against the ITC meta once in a while, you should be armed with the knowledge of what's out there. 

[Echelon]

You bring up a very valid list of concerns. Many of which I don't have answers for yet. I feel that when using a limited codex like deathwatch/militarum tempestus/grey knights/imperial knights/etc... You need to find the tools that work good and spam those tools.

 

Tabletop tactics just released a list that could do fairly well, though I don't think it ha the punch to win. It runs dual cads and seven MSU veteran squads with shotgunsx2 + frag cannonsx2 + HTH in drop pods. It puts a level 2 librarian and the watch maste in a single unit and rolls off telepathy for shroud/invis.

 

My approach with the codex was going to be a little different. That what they did. I was still going to use drop pods, but I wanted bigger units. I am thinking of running three Death Stars in a BSSF deep striking and a small CAD of snipers in pods. I will post the list tonight after dinner. And hopefully I could get a few of you vets to take a look at it and let me know what you think.

 

Anyway, this is a good conversation to have and I will try to think of some decent counter arguments for the points you listed over the weekend.

[Honda]

I kept waiting for the 'real deal' to drop. I anticipated they milked the fan boys (us) and then awaited our "Sky Hammer" or a unit like a Dreadknight, or a real formation, something...

 

 

So the real question then might be, are they just a couple of formations away from having more teeth?

 

If so, what might those be?

 

@Echelon: That TTT list sounds interesting. Do you happen to have the link to their batrep?

[Scribe]

Prot, have you tried an MSU/Deep Strike approach? You can pack a lot of Frag Cannons in if you want to keep the rest of the army basic, and push as many models as you can when your basic guy is 22pts

[Echelon]

 

I kept waiting for the 'real deal' to drop. I anticipated they milked the fan boys (us) and then awaited our "Sky Hammer" or a unit like a Dreadknight, or a real formation, something...

 

 

So the real question then might be, are they just a couple of formations away from having more teeth?

 

If so, what might those be?

 

@Echelon: That TTT list sounds interesting. Do you happen to have the link to their batrep?

 

 

It was just a list analysis. There is a Deathwatch batrep they are doing coming up soon though. I put the link below to the list analysis. If you have not heard of TTT I highly recommend at least going through with the trial sub and viewing his tactica on list building. A lot of it is common sense, but some of the points he makes in them are really helpful. The guy wins tournaments as well and he comes across as knowing what he is talking about. The list analysis to the link below had the stipulation from one of his views that he could only use veterans.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztoz3FRHxbQ

 

I really do like MSU. It looks good on paper but I still think Deathwatch will be better with mini-deathstars. 

 

Something like this could be fun...

 

BSSF (1000 pts) ((Starts on table))

HQ : ML2 Libby (Telepathy/Fulmination/Librarus (Pick one))

Aquilia Kill Team

Veterans (Veteransx2+Deathwatch Shotgun+stormshield, Veteransx3+Deathwatch Frag Cannon)

Terminatorsx5+Assault Cannon+Cyclone Missile Launcher+Powerfist

Land Raider Crusader+Extra Armor+Multi-Melta

 

Sure is is a point sink but it deletes what it fires at. Then you run a MSU CAD with it in drop pods that are all melee focused

 

This is part of the list I'm working towards right now.

[Sheesh Mode]

 

I really do like MSU. It looks good on paper but I still think Deathwatch will be better with mini-deathstars. 

I agree. Deathwatch overcome their inherent weakness of high-cost/fragility, by simply fielding stronger squads at range and in close combat. In my opinion each squad should be able to kill - or reduce the effectiveness of - their target whenever they shoot at it. 

[Honda]

It was just a list analysis. There is a Deathwatch batrep they are doing coming up soon though. I put the link below to the list analysis. If you have not heard of TTT I highly recommend at least going through with the trial sub and viewing his tactica on list building. A lot of it is common sense, but some of the points he makes in them are really helpful. The guy wins tournaments as well and he comes across as knowing what he is talking about. The list analysis to the link below had the stipulation from one of his views that he could only use veterans.

 

 

Agree. I'm a big fan of TTT and watch their reports regularly.

 

I also like MWG reports and have been enjoying Matt's foray into the GC. Relatively recently, Matt posted a GC vs. Eldar battle that was hard fought and a pretty close game till the last turn.

 

Some of my observations are:

 

1. GC seem to play to everyone's fears from a meta perspective. What I mean by that, is it seems like if you know you are going to face them, then there are steps you can take to counter their strengths. Which can be said about a lot of other codexes as well. What they seem to be able to do very well is keep more, what I would call "tournament styled lists" on the backfoot because they are able to play the missions very well.

 

2. I still think that the key to cracking GC is kill the head. Yes, they will still be annoying after you have done that, but you take away some of their buffs to other units and give the inherent strengths of your army a chance to prevail. One of the "faults" of the opponents that I've observed is that they don't do enough early on to reduce the effectiveness of the buffing units and instead play to the objectives...except it seems to me that GC excel at that aspect of the game, so taking that approach is actually playing to their strengths. Also, it seems like a severe mistake not to kill units. They can skulk off and then reinvigorate themselves if you don't get rid of them.

 

3. As Prot and others have posted, their psychic shenanigans can be pretty brutal. That has to be shut down as quickly as possible.

 

4. It seems that the players in Matt's reports so far are comfortable (because maybe this is how you win tournaments, I don't know) attempting to degrade the performance of the opponent's forces vs. removing chunks of threats. The latter is sort of how I was "brought up in the game" and there are pluses and minuses to that perspective, but at the very lieast, if you kill something, it usually can't come back to hurt you again.

 

Anyway, some quick thoughts and I'm going to watch another GC report in the next couple of days from Matt and observe (GC vs. Inq).

 

Cheers,

[Prot]

Hey guys, I appreciate the ongoing conversation but I'm getting reports that it's going too far off topic. If you want to continue talking about this game or GSC, please feel free to continue.

 

Otherwise please start a new topic and I'll gladly get into it. Right now I'm still away but should be back in full mode tomorrow.

 

P.S.

I had to move the last post which was a list to the list review section. Please help a fellow frater out with his list request please.

[Honda]

Hey guys, I appreciate the ongoing conversation but I'm getting reports that it's going too far off topic. If you want to continue talking about this game or GSC, please feel free to continue.

 

Otherwise please start a new topic and I'll gladly get into it. Right now I'm still away but should be back in full mode tomorrow.

 

 

Prot, this is your thread, what would you prefer we do?

[Echelon]

My apologies Prot. 

 

Thank you for the thoughts Honda. I have not even looked at GSC yet. Something I should do for sure though.

[Prot]

No need to apologize guys. I love the ongoing conversation and greatly appreciate all your input as it's proving to be a difficult army to play. So I'm more than fine to continue the GSC conversation here.

 

On Mini Death Stars I have to say right now I feel very opposite of that opinion right now and GSC seem to love deathstars.

 

The death star problem is we're missing the death part and the star part. ;) a true deathstar has a mega killing component and/or a super survivable aspect.

 

This is why I've gone CAD plus BSSF. The CAD gives me the ability to throw our Cassius characters as solo units as well as solo termies and bikes. So far the bikes have disappointed but I might be doing it wrong.

 

I'm not saying I'm right about this but just saying so far I'm feeling like I've gone from super tooled up units to lesser expensive units and as small as possible to divide the opponent's attention.

 

I am very familiar with MWG.... I sold them the majority of their big Ultramarines army! Honestly I can tell Matt is just getting his feet wet. I think with less toys and more basic infantry and the larger number of Genestealers it will even be a bigger success ratio for him.

[Echelon]

Most of what I can do is theory craft as well. With Christmas around the corner I don't really have the funds to drop down on a huge number of models. There is also the problem that most of the people I can find to play here in Reno are casual. So I don't want to take in a tooled up list against them. 

 

But I will keep looking around for ideas and share them with people.

 

I don't think Deathwatch is a deathstar army as well. I think they are more of mini-stars. Rocking 2-3 big kill teams. But even then I'm just not sure if it would be better than running MSU. The more and more I look into it though I think a Captain with a SPBoltgun, banebolts, dominus and the tome in a ten man unit of SPBoltguns could be a really fun unit to drop into play.

 

Something about twenty sniper shots that just makes me giggle.

[Prot]

 

 

 

It was just a list analysis. There is a Deathwatch batrep they are doing coming up soon though. I put the link below to the list analysis. If you have not heard of TTT I highly recommend at least going through with the trial sub and viewing his tactica on list building. A lot of it is common sense, but some of the points he makes in them are really helpful. The guy wins tournaments as well and he comes across as knowing what he is talking about. The list analysis to the link below had the stipulation from one of his views that he could only use veterans.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztoz3FRHxbQ

 

I really do like MSU. It looks good on paper but I still think Deathwatch will be better with mini-deathstars. 

 

Something like this could be fun...

 

BSSF (1000 pts) ((Starts on table))

HQ : ML2 Libby (Telepathy/Fulmination/Librarus (Pick one))

Aquilia Kill Team

Veterans (Veteransx2+Deathwatch Shotgun+stormshield, Veteransx3+Deathwatch Frag Cannon)

Terminatorsx5+Assault Cannon+Cyclone Missile Launcher+Powerfist

Land Raider Crusader+Extra Armor+Multi-Melta

 

Sure is is a point sink but it deletes what it fires at. Then you run a MSU CAD with it in drop pods that are all melee focused

 

This is part of the list I'm working towards right now.

 

 

That squad above... is a 1000 points. Wow. The Landraider really doesn't work in competitive play unless you sneak it in. You have to find a way to get it in the side door, or Beacon it across the table.

 

I'm not sure I understand though as I don't think that Aquila can fit it in the landraider, and also the Termie load out is illegal (unless I've misunderstood your mixture of weapons on them?)

 

So here's why I think that config won't work. First I confess I haven't played that big an Aquila but I was starting to lean that way towards larger squads, and decided against it for the very same reason:

 

1. The squad has too many roles mixed up. It's a great blob of shooty-mess. I quarantee you with that many FragCannons you will annihilate -most- non-death start non-Necron units in range of the templates. Then what? You have a bunch of Terminators holding their hands?

 

2. Without old school split fire, too much of this squad is just going to be doing very little.

 

3. So you've got this landeraider, and no beacon, so I assume you're driving this across the board against MeltaPods/D- missiles, Tau goofiness, Wraithknights, etc? The only way I can see the Deathwatch as a codex, getting use out of a Landraider is to fling there via Beacon Angelis. I used to try in cheaper Ultra lists to get it there on the ground. I used to also try this with the 3 Landraider Formation from the Astartes Codex (basically they turn into Super Heavies for ignoring results) and truthfully Grav just ruins your day here.

 

3.5 Assuming no Landraider shennanigans, this deathstar is too slow. Look to the 'experts' in deathstars: Ravenwing Bike star (bikes are obvious), Wolf star, Draigo Star, Khorne Hound  star,  etc. What do all these successful deathstars have in common? The ability to make sure you can't out maneuver them. To make sure when they hit you like a truck, they aren't stuck out in the middle of nowhere for the rest of the game. 

 

4. Let's ignore all the above. Your opponent has kindly laid a path for you to zoom up, and he hasn't made it too difficult for you to unload your Aquila right at his door step... You unload this immense shooty payload at him. Now what? This is where even if you get there you most likely won't survive the next step which is where against something GSC you will end up in a massive unending combat to some degree, or Grav'd to death.

 

The problem with our deathstars is they aren't survivable. We don't have a way to make them weather the storm like other armies do. We really don't even have a proper tank without simple access to Eternal Warrior. 

 

The other thing to think about here is the second you have 2-3 Frag Cannons in close combat, that is the most excruciatingly frustrating thing to witness as a Deathwatch player. I equate it to having my Grav Centurions stuck in close combat vs. Cultists. You know that you're not going to get annihilated in close combat, but you also know the truly disheartening part of it all is not getting to use those Frag Cannons.

 

I'm not saying it won't work. What I am saying is compared to what I see the above is all working against you. What does your deathstar bring to the table that makes it unique? That makes it get around those short comings? 

[Brother Aiwass]

P.S.

I had to move the last post which was a list to the list review section. Please help a fellow frater out with his list request please.

That was me. The list was meant for you to try to counter GSC while (I hope) still being an all comers list  not for review or anything (me trying to help ended me being helped xD)

[Captain Boyle]

Sorry Echelon, but sadly a Captain can't take a stalker pattern (Which makes the Bane bolts sniper profile literally pointless). Slightly ruins your plan but you can still have the Dominus and Tome for a for a 4++ save unit that can be expected to hit your priority unit type.

 

You could swap the captain for a librarian with divination. Keep all the relics. That'd be a fair amount of hurt coming from your snipers, with rerolls to hit and to wound in the right situation.

[robofish7591]

I could be mistaken, but can't you only have one relic per character?

[Prot]

 

P.S.

I had to move the last post which was a list to the list review section. Please help a fellow frater out with his list request please.

That was me. The list was meant for you to try to counter GSC while (I hope) still being an all comers list  not for review or anything (me trying to help ended me being helped xD)

 

 

 

I'm sorry about that. It was reported to me and I was on the road at the time. My apologies. 

I could be mistaken, but can't you only have one relic per character?

 

Yes that's correct.