foamy248 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 What's the ideal combo-weapon/bolter ratio? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4632496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Come on, really? Veterans are 1 point more than tactical marines once you consider the extra CCW (granted an optional upgrade but always worthwhile to me). You wouldn't pay a point per model to make them all snipers and pretty decent in melee too through sheer volume of dice? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4632762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen11 Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 well, it's quite obvious that tacticals are kinda obsolete. You might take them so you can score, but beside that they are cannon fodder. Mine are yet to actually do something usefull. Rino with multimela does more usefull stuff than guys inside. Take 20 and watch them die under blast, while in return doing mostly nothing, or maybe enemy will just run isnide with small specialized unit that will kill few guys and run them down. Take 10 so you can stick them in rhino, and only thing they can do is ''guard'' while actually more, just stay by objective and hope something doesn't kill them OR later in game parks itself next to them and denies them objective. Veterans on other hand will always do something, and you can equip them to deal with basically anything. Look at DA veterans, they are on whole new level comapred with basic veterans, which are already great.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4632945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 Really shouldn't discount tactical squads, there are several legions where they can be equally if not more useful than a tooled up veteran squad for less points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4632987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thamier Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 how many heavy bolters with snipers can a squad of vets take? (thinking of combining them with SoH long march turn 1 reroll to hit of 1s, and relentless in my deplymentzone +deathdealers gives +1bs on targets within 12inch) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4632989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 how many heavy bolters with snipers can a squad of vets take? (thinking of combining them with SoH long march turn 1 reroll to hit of 1s, and relentless in my deplymentzone +deathdealers gives +1bs on targets within 12inch) 1 per 5. Same as any other special/heavy weapon. (Ignoring combi-weapons.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thamier Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 how many heavy bolters with snipers can a squad of vets take? (thinking of combining them with SoH long march turn 1 reroll to hit of 1s, and relentless in my deplymentzone +deathdealers gives +1bs on targets within 12inch) 1 per 5. Same as any other special/heavy weapon. (Ignoring combi-weapons.) thats no fun! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Actually I'd say that's a good thing. Besides the points reduction my biggest issue with vets are the combi weapons. If they could take more than 2 heavy weapons in a squad it would just get bonkers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Really shouldn't discount tactical squads, there are several legions where they can be equally if not more useful than a tooled up veteran squad for less points.Name one other than the chainaxe legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 Iron warriors, Iron hands, Night Lords, blood angels, sons of horus. 3 of which will have bonuses in combat. A big squad of basic BA will have just the bonus A big squad of NL will outnumber, therefore bonuses which get better during nightfight if they charge SoH will outnumber and get the bonus attack Through weight of dice alone these are excellent choices on a budget. And then you told me not to mention world eaters. Iron hands (apart from vs vets) having a big squad with an apothecary you may as well not bother shooting unless you've the weapons to deal with effectively, which not everyone has And iron warriors that can shoot then charge with bolters. If you want we can include raven guard and alpha legion for being able to infiltrate, which anything exposed and vulnerable enough could suffer from a fury of the legion strike early on. Vets are versatile and they are great But bread and butter can get the job done too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Iron Warriors don't prefer tacticals. Yeah they just need to stand there for ironfire tokens, but no one would pass up a 1 point upgrade to make them snipers too.I don't get the Iron Hands thing at all.Night Lords, Blood Angels and Sons of Horus would all gladly pay 1 point per model for WS5 and +1 attack. 10 veterans have the attacks of 15 tacticals.If you are talking about large despoiler squads, those are of questionable value to begin with*, and require a Spartan or Kharybdis, so we are now far far far from your original statement of "better and cheaper".*World Eaters and their half dozen USRs and free axes excluded. Everyone else takes tacticals because they have to, not because they want to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 I think it's plain to see how vets are the best unlock-able troops choice. They might not be the best fit for every single list and every single situation, but their flexibility and cheap cost is hard to beat for anybody who can unlock them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 What's the ideal combo-weapon/bolter ratio? This is a major consideration of their use, and I'm not sure if there is an ideal. I see a lot of people take a bunch of combi-weapons and not bother with the special weapon at all, and I always wonder about that. If given the option, rather than a combi-weapon, I would rather have a permanent plasma/melta/heavy flamer for just 5 more points. For meltas, I would say 5 shots should be enough for the vast majority of targets, especially with machine killers buff. Sons of Horus and anyone with preferred enemy could probably get away with 4. For flamers, I would say the same, since it's very hard to get a whole unit worth of flamers on a unit, and shooting half the unit and counting on the other half to survive to shoot again is risky. For plasmas, how many spare points you got? :D All of the above require alpha-strike capability, in my opinion, which usually means deep strike. Plasmas have a longer effective range and could potentially be used when outflanking, but it's not optimal. If alpha strike capability is not available and you're just running marksmen squads in Rhinos, I'd keep them cheap and go for volume. Take 2 special weapons to shoot out of the firing ports, and stay alive to deliver rapid fire sniper death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Tacticals might be good in a less aggressive role. You wouldn't want to throw one of your only two (yes most people take only two minimum) vet squads onto an objective out in the open. There are definitely ways around that, but you get my point. I don't mind throwing Cannon fodder tacticals onto objectives when I need my Veterans always being aggressive and killing stuff. TL;DR don't pigeonhole yourself :P your opponent will adapt and make you pay for it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 my veteran marines rarely score intentionally , since I run Armored Breakthrough , but I take them because they provide a tremendous boon through the marksman tactic. That said , there have been more than one situations that saw my veteran tactical units wind up on an objective toward the end of the game after murdering the unit that was camping it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Veterans are hands down one of the best units in the game and I won't deny that. But.... I have to add that Tacticals aren't as bad as many claim. They sure are only slightly cheaper if you consider extra CCW, and even if you don't we only talk about 35 points. The thing is that we won't stop there. Let me explain. If we talk about ten Tacticals, we talk about ten dudes in a Rhino with some kind of weapon on top, AA and Melterbombs on the sarge most of the time, am I right? That's round about 200 points. Most loadouts for Veterans look like that: Ten dudes, five Combi-weapons, Rhino, couple of Power Weapons, AA and some kind of PW on the sarge as well. That's around 260 points. Yes, they are way morgen versatile then the Tacticals, and way more powerful in CC, but the temptation to make them really expansive is high and even if not they're at least 40-60 points more expansive, because let's face it: No one buys ten dudes without any upgrades. And you don't want them to babysit an objective, if you spend 260 points on them. What I want to say is, that Veterans just have a different battlefield role then Tacticals. But if you can get them as Troops you may do just that. It's a great thing after all, but not always the best option. In opposite to what I said, and in the desperate attempt to stay on topic, I do have tried almost naked Veteran Squads. In The Ironfire I made good results with ten dudes in a Dreadclaw with minimum additional gear on them. Maybe Melterbombs but that's it. They get out and shoot stuff like Thudd Guns or marines. Stuff like that. They're very good at that and still are very cheap. 195 if you take Melterbombs what I recomment. That make them even more dangerous for turn two. Yeah, I know you can only use one bomb at a time in CC but in my humble experience you tend to loose the sarge with Power Fist very often and then you stand in front of a armoured target pants down. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4633880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thamier Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 did someone write vets had ws 5 in the previous posts? do they ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4634427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 25, 2017 Author Share Posted January 25, 2017 did someone write vets had ws 5 in the previous posts? do they ? If they take weapons master as their veteran trait Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4634434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thamier Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 ahh heheh okay thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4634436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 If you take the weapon masters specialization for them then yes they do. Pretty useful for a veteran unit geared up for an assault with a bunch of power weapons. edit: beaten to the punch.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4634438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Vets with sniper I feel is the winner as they are anti MEQ MC and TEQ. Keeps the point investment down too as has been duly noted. In my area you rarely see Vets... tactical squads are far more popular. I typically run PotL with one big squad of terminators and one full squad of Vets along side Templar Brethren if I'm running Sigismund. Tactical squads don't get me excited but like I said they are very popular in my area. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4634726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Templar Brethren dont fulfill a compulsory troop choice for pride , even with Sigismund. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4634756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Terminators and Vet Tacs do though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4634980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I assume he edited the post cause I am sure I did not see an alongside before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4635688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
disease Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 any reason to take terminators over vets? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327016-new-veteran-tactics/page/4/#findComment-4637148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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