"New" veteran tactics

[Slips]

any reason to take terminators over vets?

2+/4(5)++ and Power Fists, mainly and saving 3ppm per combi-weapon.

[Lord Blackwood]

sourcing combi weapon for terminators is a pain ,though if you are creative its not so bad 
The Plastic Cataphractii  really help in this regard. 

[Brofist]

any reason to take terminators over vets?

I ran the math on another forum. Terminators have a few advantages- Dreadclaws and Spartans are dedicated transports. In terms of cost for resilience they are a better value than every other unit except tacticals. Kitted out properly they'll mulch all other troops choices. You've got three builds for them really: A suicide squad with combi weapons inside a dreadclaw, a bunch of guys in a spartan riding with your HQ, or a large squad footslogging down the board acting as area denial.

[Lord Blackwood]

The third option I would not recommend XD  the First two are very  strong 

[Erren]

Why give the dreadclaw terminators a bunch of combi-weapons? Dreadclaws are assault transports, so give them power/chainfists and assault with them! Maybe a couple combi-weapons if you have spare points, but I would say the same for the guys riding in a Spartan.

 

Better third build: stick them with your HQ in a Kharybdis!

 

Terminators > veterans if you want to assault with them. Many legions have better options for assault though.

[Lord Blackwood]

I mean ,  ..... I  give my terminators both when I  stick em in a claw , the power fists and chainfist serve to give them continued threat  coming out of the dreadclaw with the combi weapons means you have an immediate effect  (  drop , get out , combi weapon into a thing , charge it if needed )   very useful against knights  if your rollin a chainfist  

Remember in 30k  Terminators dont natively have deep strike ,  so giving them combi weapons and a means to be placed safely where they need to be is really useful. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The main advantage I find for terminators over Vets is survivability plus chain fists are even better with the nerf to melta bombs. Some Legions like Imperial Fists can deep strike so a transport is not absolutely necessary for them. I find a squad of eight with a character attached is perfect.

[Lord Blackwood]

I cant imagine deep striking a terminator unit being a good idea if the objective is to get them into combat. 

as in deep striking them raw without  a dreadclaw or its larger brother 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It's worked well if there is some terrain or they come in area with little to none AP2 enemy weapons. I like to tahem in Spartan too.

[Withershadow]

I cant imagine deep striking a terminator unit being a good idea if the objective is to get them into combat. 

 

as in deep striking them raw without  a dreadclaw or its larger brother 

That's when Cataphractii armor and combi-weapons shine the most. Imperial Fists and Night Lords can do it with any list, everyone else needs Orbital Assault (plus I think Horus unlocks deep striking for terminators IIRC?).  A unit can land to pump 10 plasma shots into something, which is significant, and then have a 2+/4++ to weather the opponent's turn.  Since deep strike involves turn 2+ (except with Perturabo), ideally there will be other targets vying for the opponent's attention.

[helterskelter]

Deepstriking melta terminators work. They also serve to remind your friends to take armoured ceramite because "no one takes melta" :p

[Lord Blackwood]

I cant imagine deep striking a terminator unit being a good idea if the objective is to get them into combat.

as in deep striking them raw without a dreadclaw or its larger brother

That's when Cataphractii armor and combi-weapons shine the most. Imperial Fists and Night Lords can do it with any list, everyone else needs Orbital Assault (plus I think Horus unlocks deep striking for terminators IIRC?). A unit can land to pump 10 plasma shots into something, which is significant, and then have a 2+/4++ to weather the opponent's turn. Since deep strike involves turn 2+ (except with Perturabo), ideally there will be other targets vying for the opponent's attention.

Deepstriking melta terminators work. They also serve to remind your friends to take armoured ceramite because "no one takes melta"

I agree , deep striking melta terminators work , but deep striking close combat termis ?

If your going to use close combat oriented squads of terminators you want them charging out of a Claw or a Spartan you dont want them raw on the board at turn 2 the earliest and in combat ( HOPEFULLY) turn three

[Withershadow]

Define "close-combat" termies?  They are all capable of close-combat, since taking a combi-weapon doesn't lock you out of taking a 5 point power fist.

 

If you're talking Lightning Claws (which ridiculously enough cost more than a fist and combi-weapon), or Tartaros terminators in general, then sure, you don't want to deep strike them in the open.

[Gorgoff]

any reason to take terminators over vets?

You play ZM, you can deep strike, you like Terminators.

[Lord Blackwood]

My Comment was specifically directed at Black Orange and his assertion that Close combat Terminators can just be dropped down onto the board and hope to get into melee  

Considering Several posts up I have PICTURES of MY OWN  terminators kitted with bloody combi weapons  and power fists  I  certainly do know about running them in that fashion. 

[Gorgoff]

My Comment was specifically directed at Black Orange and his assertion that Close combat Terminators can just be dropped down onto the board and hope to get into melee  

Considering Several posts up I have PICTURES of MY OWN  terminators kitted with bloody combi weapons  and power fists  I  certainly do know about running them in that fashion.

 

Oh.

OUH.

I missed lots of postings apparently.

Shame.

Shame.

Shame. ;)

[Lord Blackwood]

not you gorgoff , withered shadow , yer fine bruh D:  

[Gorgoff]

not you gorgoff , withered shadow , yer fine bruh D:

 

Yeah, but I DO have missed lots of postings. :D

I guess DS or Dreadclaw rriding Terminators with PF and Combi-weapons is the best option to field them.

But in this thread we talk about Vets.

I guess outflanking or Dreadclaw riding Veterans with Combi-weapons and some Power Weapons is the best way to field them. ;)

[Jarkaira]

If you got outflanking Rhino from Head of the Gorgon RoW are there any reason for getting more bodies than you want combi-weapons?

I guess you need extra bodies only if you want to get into melee but not in case of just shooting five meltas rear/side armor of someone's LoW.

 

Also Kromlech does have nice Heresy era looking combi-weapons for a 6.99€ per five and Anvil industries does even have a combi-weapon in which you can magnetize the combi-part and switch whatever you want.

[Lord Blackwood]

If you got outflanking Rhino from Head of the Gorgon RoW are there any reason for getting more bodies than you want combi-weapons?

I guess you need extra bodies only if you want to get into melee but not in case of just shooting five meltas rear/side armor of someone's LoW.

 

Also Kromlech does have nice Heresy era looking combi-weapons for a 6.99€ per five and Anvil industries does even have a combi-weapon in which you can magnetize the combi-part and switch whatever you want.

Machine Killer Tactic Vets outflanking in Rhino's with  Head of the Gorgon is a good bit of USR  stacking , at that point I  wonder if its worth taking  a bunch of combi meltas for that purpose.  

[Withershadow]

not you gorgoff , withered shadow , yer fine bruh D:  

To be honest, I gloss over Mr. Black Blow Fly's posts, so I didn't see what you were originally responding to.  My bad.  Still, it all seems kind of obvious. Lightning claws are terrible in my opinion, and power fists/chainfists is what I consider a "combat-capable" Terminator unit, in which case the question becomes do you give them combi-weapons or not.  For me, the answer is always yes, because shooting is more reliable than melee (especially when getting tank hunter and potentially preferred enemy as Alpha Legion, or BS5 and re-roll 1s first turn as Sons of Horus), and the melee will always be there later.  So I would still drop Cataphractii units I intend to get into melee via deep strike. With combi-weapons, they are still contributing that turn, and present a credible threat for subsequent turns. They can be killed, sure, but it will take a decent chunk of firepower, and they are like ~245 points fully kitted out, so not an enormous loss.

 

Now if we're talking about a large squad of terminators with like a praetor and maybe a primus medicae, no I would not just drop them out to squeeze in some firepower.  I would stick them in a Kharybdis every time.

 

With Horus, I've read the tactica discussion in the SoH subthread about how unkillable a Justaerin death star with a primus and Horus can be.  I agree that seems brutal, but also over 1000 points of models sitting in reserve for at least a turn, and horrendous overkill for anything it engages (and without a transport, runs the risk of killing everything nearby and just waddling around for several turns).

 

Personally, I think Horus is such a badass, I wouldn't even bother with a retinue for him.  Precision deep strike him by himself into enemy lines, call down orbital bombardment, and next turn proceed to kick everyone in the teeth. 

[Lord Blackwood]

Black Blow Fly ? 

[Jarkaira]

Pretty fly for a Bladewolf? :)

[Charlo]

See, while potentially suboptimal, besides looking BALLER LC terms work as a fantastic unit to hunt a load of expensive power armoured vet units or tactical blobs. Or even the likes of rapiers etc. That shred means they pump out consistent wounds.

 

They do this a lot better than Veterans and also serve as an incredible counter to most veterans (though gotta be wary of those sniping flamers overwatch).

[The Ironic Warrior]

Vets with combi-plasma in a Dreadclaw (Yeah I know not DT but hear me out before you throw me out) using the Long March RoW for Sons of Horus is just downright disgustingly effective.....Terminators over vets are good if you have a plan for them. I tend to find the better armour save doesn't really help much when you are receiving a lot of small arms fire. More bodies are better than higher armour saves in my opinion, but that's only if the cost is the same and they are doing the same job.

 

TLDR: Terminators are good if doing something specific but Vets are better otherwise because more bodies > better armour save