Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Nashnir]

 

I was under the impression that the Astronomicon was still guided by The Emperor whilst He was out on the Crusade.

 

 

 

It was, what I understand, maintaining the Astronomicon was not much of a challenge. He was able to do this whithout any assistance as far as published lore goes. As clearly shown in an event in Master of Mankind, the Emperor being enthroned on the thone for so long and the Psykers being used as fuel for it was something fairly recent.

 

From what I have come away with the over arching lore is that Magnus' Folly was schemed by the choirs in order to completely drain the Emperor's attention to one battlefield.

Without the ability to take up any other duty, the astronomicon failed or rather was a hollow of former expanse.

[Mellow]

Not sure if they wanted to get Him to tune His attention to one battlefield or if they just wanted to bust in and break His stuff because He's the "Anathema"

[Scribe]

So, you all will have to forgive me but I'm a bit confused as to all the protest (I guess) that came out of this book, because I just finished The Path of Heaven and it seems a thematic companion to everything stated here?

 

It touches on all the same points.

 

 

 

1. Obsoleting of various branches of the Crusade.

2. Emperor having a timeline and goal to phase out various aspects of the Imperium.

3. Emperor and Khan having an opposing view due to the lies which are the Imperial Truth.

4. The critical importance of the Webway Project, and Magnus' fate.

5. Most importantly, the fact that there is no victory left for the Imperium.

 

 

 

So why all the rage and denial directed at MoM? As far as I can tell, its the same concepts.

 

Note: I still do not have my PRE-ORDERED BOOK, but it sure seems to touch on the same themes, and reinforces what MoM states?

[simison]

*sigh* It's Point 5 of your list. Despite your repeated claims to the contrary, a significant portion of the fandom doesn't buy your belief that the Imperium is destined to lose. An even larger portion certainly disagree with your assertion (made elsewhere) that Chaos will win. 

 

That was by far the largest point of contention that was argued about within these threads. 

[Wulfburk]

The problem for me is not the fact that it will lose... its how it will lose, and in MoM for me it was a very humiliating defeat which i did not expect it, in fact the greatest since Isstvan 5, one where you cant even gather some scraps and say "oh well the Emperor did this at least" or this or that... (and you can do that with any defeat from both sides across all 40 books, really, well perhaps only on isstvan 5 you cant).

I mean on path of heaven you have the whole shadow of defeat and attrition and etc.... but the Scars bleed the traitors so much for those 4 -iirc- years they gather quite a fleet to punish them, and then end up managing to get back (though quite scarred) to Terra, which was their plan. And it was an awesome journey reading through that, having the Scars as the real and most significant obstacle to the traitor legions, something i personally did not expect, and Chris Wraight managed to make the Scars for me from going to just another legion to the 2nd most awesome of them all - Imperial Fists still in first

But then i might be a little biased. I confess im a loyalist fanboy.

[Scribe]

*sigh* It's Point 5 of your list. Despite your repeated claims to the contrary, a significant portion of the fandom doesn't buy your belief that the Imperium is destined to lose. An even larger portion certainly disagree with your assertion (made elsewhere) that Chaos will win. 

 

That was by far the largest point of contention that was argued about within these threads. 

 

Ah, well its not 'my' belief. Its been alluded to in this series far more than once, I was just shocked reading through PoH, at how many of its points are brought up in this thread as being revelations, when really, they are not.

 

They are not revelations in PoH either really, as you can go back to Outcast Dead even for some of this (though I recognize Outcast Dead had...issues) so to me its just all...surprising that its a point of contention.

 

Again, its not my belief, its the setting. The Imperium's chance at victory, true setting defining victory, is lost. Any time people in the HH Books have 'seen the future' it is one of 40K as we know it, and they consider it defeat. 

 

Authors back this up.

"IP Experts" as ADB pointed out, back this up.

The books, back this up and have for quite literally years.

 

I mean did people make this fuss in the PoH thread as well or because of the actions Wulfburk mentions did people gloss over the fact that the future is revealed again, and its one of defeat?

[Wulfburk]

Yeah but Outcast Dead had a totally different way to make that point. It was more like "i know how it will end and it will end badly, but it will be a tie or not a total defeat", the same goes for PoH i think and its much different from what we had in MoM, in my view at least... which was just of total despair by the end. Which is the main issue i personally have, and the Emperor's dialogue and what he implies in the end of this book doesnt seems to make much sense following Outcast Dead and other novels where he appears. That is what i understood at least, i of course could be wrong.

[Scribe]

Well both Outcast Dead and PoH have 'visions' of the 40K future. Both times, the visionary comes back saying 'we are defeated'.

 

Its just glossed over by all the rest of the action, and in PoH showing how victory is actually attained in 30k/40K, by remaining true to ones principles, and denying the darkness.

[simison]

 

 

Again, its not my belief, its the setting. The Imperium's chance at victory, true setting defining victory, is lost. Any time people in the HH Books have 'seen the future' it is one of 40K as we know it, and they consider it defeat. 

 

Authors back this up.

"IP Experts" as ADB pointed out, back this up.

The books, back this up and have for quite literally years.

 

I mean did people make this fuss in the PoH thread as well or because of the actions Wulfburk mentions did people gloss over the fact that the future is revealed again, and its one of defeat?

 

 

Wait, I'm confused now. Your definition of Chaos 'winning' is 40k? The setting where Chaos and the Imperium are locked in a struggle where neither side has yet to achieve victory over each other counts as the Chaos win?

[Wulfburk]

Well both Outcast Dead and PoH have 'visions' of the 40K future. Both times, the visionary comes back saying 'we are defeated'.

 

Its just glossed over by all the rest of the action, and in PoH showing how victory is actually attained in 30k/40K, by remaining true to ones principles, and denying the darkness.

 

Yes, though in outcast dead didnt the Emperor said it in the end that "if  you cant win, you gotta make sure the other side doesnt wins", and something like that, and implied that he would sacrifice to give humanity a last chance and etc? Where at least in the battle between him and the chaos gods it would be a tie for humanity. Ive read it quite a while though so im sorry if im saying nonsense. He was going to give humanity a better chance of survival, or perhaps just for a while longer, and he seems to have achieved it, 10k years and still going..... And on MoM, my main issue is that it didnt hint on anything related to that.... it was a defeat but it could have been showed as having a certain purpose for the Emperor. I mean on Outcast Dead he knows how the horus heresy will come to pass doesnt he? So something must have made him still continue to pour all the forces in the webway while knowing that they would be defeated and he would be forced to save a rout in the end... and in the neck of time.

 

in terms of war effort the best news is that Dorn's request were denied lol.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Again, its not my belief, its the setting. The Imperium's chance at victory, true setting defining victory, is lost. Any time people in the HH Books have 'seen the future' it is one of 40K as we know it, and they consider it defeat. 

 

Authors back this up.

"IP Experts" as ADB pointed out, back this up.

The books, back this up and have for quite literally years.

 

I mean did people make this fuss in the PoH thread as well or because of the actions Wulfburk mentions did people gloss over the fact that the future is revealed again, and its one of defeat?

 

 

Wait, I'm confused now. Your definition of Chaos 'winning' is 40k? The setting where Chaos and the Imperium are locked in a struggle where neither side has yet to achieve victory over each other counts as the Chaos win?

 

 

No, I dont even care if 'Chaos wins', because its completely up to the context of the Lord or Champion on what that winning is. This too, is born out in the fluff and fiction. Victory, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

The defeat is that Mankind is tied to the warp, progress is a myth, ignorance is celebrated, and the basis of humanities 'world view' is a lie. The Great Crusade was the road toward victory, they lost that with Horus turning, and Magnus destroying the Webway Project.

 

PoH simply had too much window dressing to keep the 'no the Imperium isnt defeated' from seeing it, even though its stated at least 3 times in the book! :D

 

40K means the defeat of mankind, its the last days of humanity, 'defeat' is simply getting there.

[simison]

So, if I said that Humanity has a chance at surviving or even potentially defeating Chaos in 40k, you would say that is not part of the setting?

[Athrawes]

 

 

 

Again, its not my belief, its the setting. The Imperium's chance at victory, true setting defining victory, is lost. Any time people in the HH Books have 'seen the future' it is one of 40K as we know it, and they consider it defeat. 

 

Authors back this up.

"IP Experts" as ADB pointed out, back this up.

The books, back this up and have for quite literally years.

 

I mean did people make this fuss in the PoH thread as well or because of the actions Wulfburk mentions did people gloss over the fact that the future is revealed again, and its one of defeat?

 

 

Wait, I'm confused now. Your definition of Chaos 'winning' is 40k? The setting where Chaos and the Imperium are locked in a struggle where neither side has yet to achieve victory over each other counts as the Chaos win?

 

 

 

Well, yeah.

 

Chaos =/= lost and the damned, traitor Legions, renegade warbands ect. They serve, chaos but their "win" isn't the Chaos Gods "win."

 

The Chaos gods feed  off  of violence, despair, greed, desire, treachery, murder, war, and that is what the stagnant Imperium of 40k Breeds.  As A-D B has said many times I think, a Victory for Abaddon, and the Chaos faction isn't actually victory for the Chaos gods. 

 

The Chaos Gods ultimate goal, was to keep humanity from unifying/cleansing the Galaxy of Xenos, and disident elements, and establishing a "peace",  they want an eternity of war, and stagnation and greed. 

 

And by stopping the Emperor and his webway project, that is how they succeeded. 

 

So summarize, yes, the 40k setting is victory for the chaos gods. Everything else is just entertainment for them.

 

 

 

So, if I said that Humanity has a chance at surviving or even potentially defeating Chaos in 40k, you would say that is not part of the setting?

 

 

I think Humanity has a chance at surviving, just like the Eldar "survived" their fall. But Humanities chance at "defeating" chaos died with the Emperor's Webway Project.

[simison]

I would still say that there's a chance for Humanity in 40k. Not a good one, mind you, but there's still a reason for hope to exist. 

 

But if one wants to argue that the 40k setting represents a victory for the forces of Chaos, compared to the Emperor's vision of the Great Crusade, than I can agree to that. 

 

What I don't agree is that Chaos has secured the final victory. No faction has. 

[Wulfburk]

Yeah, the novels and specially Outcast Dead have been implying that the Emperor changed up his focus, he realized his vision of the great crusade would not happen, so instead of accepting total defeat, he made one last gasp to make sure humanity has, not in what he first visioned, a chance of survival amongst all the crap in the galaxy and chaos and etc, and that different and more humble view has been going on for 10 thousand years. That he still managed to accomplish that secondary goal is, for me, a small victory by him, though if you look through the eyes of what his main goal was during the great crusade, and what MoM implied of his visions, then it is much different. But unlike Outcast Dead, MoM made no mention of the change of goal or something like that, so we are indeed left with the feeling of total defeat.

 

 

 (im probably sounding a little repetitive so sorry about that....)

[Scribe]

So, if I said that Humanity has a chance at surviving or even potentially defeating Chaos in 40k, you would say that is not part of the setting?

 

Certainly not.

 

40K to me, reflects the victory for Chaos as is. War Eternal, a Galaxy divided and being consumed, bleeding into the warp, which humanity is bound to eternally.

 

Adding hope to the setting is counter to what the majority of material states.

 

EDIT: Let me put it like this, Wrath of Iron is my quintessential '40K', and there is no hope in that story. :]

[simison]

So, I did understand you, and we do disagree. Very well then. 

[TheAlephNull]

Well, it's all up to Omegon then to make things right.

[Scribe]

So, I did understand you, and we do disagree. Very well then. 

 

Can you humour me and explain...how you disagree? I mean if there is some reason, when we weigh the entirety of the fluff and the codex's...its a desolate picture.

[Jareddm]

Perhaps I can try to bridge the gap. The vast majority of fans see 40k only through the 40k codexes, and at least since 5th edition the codexes have shown every faction as exactly equally matched at all times. Furthermore, humanity's endgame, whether that be the psyker evolution, the reincarnation of the Emperor, the return of the primarchs, etc., are presented as clear and legitimate victories for humanity in such that humanity is no longer bound to the warp and has escaped the supposed eternal control of chaos. It is these views that are presented front and center in the codexes. So you can see how this clashes with the idea that as of the end of the Horus Heresy, humanity is lost to chaos always and forever.

[Kelborn]

Seconded to what Athrawes said.

 

The big four "won" by creating the setting for an eternal war between their followers and the Imperium.

 

The Imperium "won" until now by sheer surviving and denying victory for Abaddon.

 

Abaddon would "win" if he conquers Terra but I don't believe that the Pantheon will let it happen for reasons already mentioned.

 

But there is ONE variable no one can control: Xenos

 

Orks are gathering under Uruk. Necrons are rising to annihilate life. Tyranids are arriving to consume life. Tau are ascending to unite everything. Eldar are on a sinking ship but still, they are a force of might.

 

Of these factions, only the Eldar could be said to be influenced by the gods. The rest are truly independent.

We still don't know what will happen next.

 

Will the Orks flood the Imperium? Will the Necrons unite to destroy the Warp? Will the Tau find a way to expand faster? Will the Tyranids absorb chaos demons so that they might get tainted?

 

We simply don't know it and that's why I would recommend everyone to not decide if either Chaos or Imperium will win this setting or not.

 

Let us just wait, drink some mead and enjoy the freakin' stories BL is throwin' at us. ;)

[simison]

Of course it's a desolate picture. It's not without reason that 40k is called grimdark, but the devil is in the details. 

 

We disagree on two points. Moving from specific to general, starting with your assertion that 'Chaos will win'. At this point in time, we do not have enough evidence that Chaos will win. While it is certainly a possibility, it is not a guarantee. The 13th Black Crusade does not have an instant 'I win' button of any kind. Ergo, it can be defeated with Abaddon being sent back into the Warp to plan the next one. The fact of the matter is, as terrible as the situation is, most factions have a chance at 'winning'. The rest of the Tyranid swarm can arrive and promptly eat the galaxy. Enough Necron tomb worlds can awaken, leading to a renewed Necron empire that promptly uses its incredibly advance tech to secure the galaxy themselves. I don't think the Orks understand the concept of 'surrender' and will continue fighting and expanding where they can. Furthermore, the Imperium could endure their darkest hour and come out stronger than before. Or the Imperium could shatter, but then this defeat frees Humanity to rebuild anew leading, again, to a stronger Humanity that is able to fight off its enemies. 

 

That's five other possible end scenarios that do not end with Chaos as the ultimate winner. That's five different ways to prove your assertion "Chaos will win" wrong. 

 

Moving to the general, you assert that the setting is inherently built upon the theme of hopelessness. I vehemently disagree with this, and the evidence supports my position. As battered as the Imperium is of this moment, it still has a chance. There's still a chance that the Emperor's death might simply lead to a kind of rebirth. Leman Russ is searching for a cure of sorts for the Emperor, and he may succeed.

 

Perhaps one of the most visible examples for my case are the Blood Angels. With every battle, there is a constant battle against not only against outer foes but there is also the inner struggle against the Black Rage. Despite claiming thousands upon thousands of Blood Angels, there is always a chance that a Blood Angel can overcome it, as depicted by Mephiston and, to a lesser extent, Lemartes.

 

For a textual example, at the end of the Shield of Baal campaign, Dante has watched the Tyranids swarm another system and is wondering if all the sacrifices that has been made to temporarily blunt the swarm will even be work. The Sanguinor literally floats into the scene and the two heroes stare at each other for a bit. Finally, Dante asks the Sanguinor if Baal can be saved.

 

The Sanguinor says one word: yes.

 

That is what the setting is built upon, from the viewpoint of the Imperium. It is two minutes to Midnight, and the Imperium/Humanity is being attacked by hordes of xenos, legions of daemons, and by its own inner darkness, beset by every foe. But the war is not over yet. Midnight will come and could harken the end of Humanity. Or Midnight can come and then go as Humanity stands on the other side, alive. We don't know what will happen, and that simple fact allows a spark of hope to continue to stay lit in the darkness. And since hope exists in the setting, it disproves of your thesis that the setting is built upon hopeless struggle against the inevitable and that 'Chaos will win'. 

[mc warhammer]

So, if I said that Humanity has a chance at surviving or even potentially defeating Chaos in 40k, you would say that is not part of the setting?

as adb, laurie g and others have asserted: winning and surviving aren't the same thing.

 

the eldar survived slaanesh but they far from won.

 

as i understand the setting, from GW employees as well as my own reading: the great crusade was humanity's big chance to win. and we came within a hair's of that triumph. perhaps closer than any other species.

 

but we lost. and there will be no second chances.

 

the fact that the imperium has endured as the greatest galactic power for 10,000 years hence, through pure grit and stubbornness is still beyond impressive.

 

but its in decline. and its doom is imminent.

 

which, incidentally, we will never see happen. its an inevitable end that we will never experience. like ragnarok.

[mc warhammer]

Perhaps I can try to bridge the gap. The vast majority of fans see 40k only through the 40k codexes, and at least since 5th edition the codexes have shown every faction as exactly equally matched at all times. Furthermore, humanity's endgame, whether that be the psyker evolution, the reincarnation of the Emperor, the return of the primarchs, etc., are presented as clear and legitimate victories for humanity in such that humanity is no longer bound to the warp and has escaped the supposed eternal control of chaos. It is these views that are presented front and center in the codexes. So you can see how this clashes with the idea that as of the end of the Horus Heresy, humanity is lost to chaos always and forever.

well, aside from starchild being more or less abandoned, and the emperor's plan being the only way for the psychic evolution to take place without destroying humanity...most of these are presented as in-universe perspectives and propaganda.

 

the return of the primarchs is essentially the imperium's version of king arthur's return. britain has had two world wars and old arty barely hit the snooze button.

[simison]

 

So, if I said that Humanity has a chance at surviving or even potentially defeating Chaos in 40k, you would say that is not part of the setting?

 

which, incidentally, we will never see happen. its an inevitable end that we will never experience. like ragnarok.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if 40k never has an End Times campaign. I wouldn't be surprised if they did have one. It's GW's call, and I'm fine with that. 

 

Although, I would point out that Ragnorak ends with Humanity's and the Asgardians' rebirth. So, while I doubt GW will ever allow Humanity to reach another Golden Age (there are no good stories in paradise), the Imperium or Humanity can have a second chance. But, I agree that would require us to see what happens post-13th Black Crusade, and that's unlikely. So, imagining second chances for humanity is a very hypothetical exercise at the moment.