Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

So, if I said that Humanity has a chance at surviving or even potentially defeating Chaos in 40k, you would say that is not part of the setting?

which, incidentally, we will never see happen. its an inevitable end that we will never experience. like ragnarok.

I wouldn't be surprised if 40k never has an End Times campaign. I wouldn't be surprised if they did have one. It's GW's call, and I'm fine with that.

 

Although, I would point out that Ragnorak ends with Humanity's and the Asgardians' rebirth.

well yeah, but that's not the part that has much in common with the time of ending in 40k. i mean ragnorak also had flying horses, which i'm reasonably sure we won't get

 

So, while I doubt GW will ever allow Humanity to reach another Golden Age (there are no good stories in paradise), the Imperium or Humanity can have a second chance. But, I agree that would require us to see what happens post-13th Black Crusade, and that's unlikely. So, imagining second chances for humanity is a very hypothetical exercise at the moment.

yeah and doing so is thinking in terms of story rather than setting.

 

here's an interesting quote from laurie gaulding

 

"

Exactly that. The Space Marines knew they were on a time limit. They had no place in the Imperium once it was unified and safe.

 

I feel a lot of people might be misunderstanding the tragedy of the Horus Heresy, and why Warhammer 40,000 is so dark and depressing. There wasn't supposed to BE a military, no Legions, no crusading forces after the galaxy was reconquered. But the Emperor died before he was finished, and his loyal sons tried to perpetuate what was left...

 

...DOOMING MANKIND FOREVER.

 

The Imperium cannot win. Mankind will never ascend. This is just the last fart before humanity dies for good."

[Jareddm]

well, aside from starchild being more or less abandoned, and the emperor's plan being the only way for the psychic evolution to take place without destroying humanity...most of these are presented as in-universe perspectives and propaganda.

 

the return of the primarchs is essentially the imperium's version of king arthur's return. britain has had two world wars and old arty barely hit the snooze button.

Being presented as propaganda is irrelevant. It's not about what's presented in the lore, but how the community interprets that lore. And from what I've seen, a vocal part of the community holds those ideas as legitimate possibilities for humanity's future, thus presenting hope of escaping out from under Chaos's control.

[mc warhammer]

 

well, aside from starchild being more or less abandoned, and the emperor's plan being the only way for the psychic evolution to take place without destroying humanity...most of these are presented as in-universe perspectives and propaganda.

 

the return of the primarchs is essentially the imperium's version of king arthur's return. britain has had two world wars and old arty barely hit the snooze button.

Being presented as propaganda is irrelevant. It's not about what's presented in the lore, but how the community interprets that lore. And from what I've seen, a vocal part of the community holds those ideas as legitimate possibilities for humanity's future, thus presenting hope of escaping out from under Chaos's control.

"irrelevant" is a MASSIVE stretch. if context doesn't matter then why would writers employ pov, third person, omniscient narratives and more? why would writers write things as truth, half truth or lies?

 

if context is irrelevant, better to just write a bullet point list of events for the readers to freely interpret.

 

to some degree, i do think it might be that the property's approach is its own double edged sword. it's one of the few that actively encourages its audience to make up their own stuff, so i suppose nobody should be surprised when parts of the community actually go ahead and do that.

 

here's how i see it: is the basis of the 40k setting that mankind is doomed? yes. gw employees have said as much.

 

does that preclude readers or players from finding some hope in there despite that "fact"? no. after all, that's what hope is and does.

[Jareddm]

if context is irrelevant, better to just write a bullet point list of events for the readers to freely interpret.

Where did you think people were getting their lore from? ;) There's a reference to one right on the first page of this thread.

[mc warhammer]

Where did you think people were getting their lore from? ;) There's a reference to one right on the first page of this thread.

black library shuts down. in the grim dark future of 40k fiction, there is only reddit

[LaurieJGoulding]

People should cease quoting me out of context, now... I know, it was fun while it lasted, and I was an easy scapegoat for the collective rages. But no more.

 

If you want to be part of the discussion on TheFirstExpedition, I suggest you go and be part of the discussion on TheFirstExpedition.

[mc warhammer]

People should cease quoting me out of context, now... I know, it was fun while it lasted, and I was an easy scapegoat for the collective rages. But no more.

 

If you want to be part of the discussion on TheFirstExpedition, I suggest you go and be part of the discussion on TheFirstExpedition.

i was careful to quote your post in its entirety. and also to preface it with nothing misleading beyond "interesting" and hoping that it would speak for itself.

 

still, it's a request i have no problem with. for those who are interested, the quote was taken from page 3 of the "master of mankind" thread on the spoiler board. you'll be able to view it in full context there.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Excellent. Then you can have a cookie.

[mc warhammer]

careful. i might mention my cookie over on the first expedition forums.

 

i'm a wild card like that.

[MrDarth151]

I personally don't have a problem with saying that Chaos can win.

 

I have a problem with how unequivocal the book is about it. Or rendering the rest of the universe moot.

 

I like subtelty. I like ambiguity. Both those things are missing from this book. It's like being being hit with sledgehammer that has "Chaos will win!" written on it again, and again, and again.

 

I have brought the quotes from the core rulebook suggesting that ultimate victory for the Imperium might be possible before. Assuming 40k is meant to be thematically consistent, what are those? Are they editorial oversight? A fever dream of an unfortunate author? What is the point of placing inconsistent suggestions if the thematically the setting does not supposed to have any hope of survival?

 

I actually don't remember a book that would push Chaos as unambigious winner of 40k that strongly among those I read.

[mc warhammer]

I personally don't have a problem with saying that Chaos can win.

 

I have a problem with how unequivocal the book is about it. Or rendering the rest of the universe moot.

 

I like subtelty. I like ambiguity. Both those things are missing from this book. It's like being being hit with sledgehammer that has "Chaos will win!" written on it again, and again, and again.

 

I have brought the quotes from the core rulebook suggesting that ultimate victory for the Imperium might be possible before. Assuming 40k is meant to be thematically consistent, what are those? Are they editorial oversight? A fever dream of an unfortunate author? What is the point of placing inconsistent suggestions if the thematically the setting does not supposed to have any hope of survival?

 

I actually don't remember a book that would push Chaos as unambigious winner of 40k that strongly among those I read.

i don't remember the passages you quoted, but it might depend on context?

 

I don't think for a second that being aware of a predetermined fate removes ambiguity or nuance or subtlety from story telling.

 

i'll reference film, since that's my industry, and i feel most comfortable pulling examples from there.

 

"these final hours" an end of the world film where...plot twist...the world actually ends. you knew from the start that everyone on earth has only a day left. what made it interesting was how they chose to spend it

 

"american beauty", "the prestige", "fight club", tarantino films all start with the ending. granted, it's more of a mystery device to get the audience to put together clues or become active viewers, but the gist of how do we get to the ending rather than what is the ending still holds.

 

we can still enjoy new iterations of old classics despite knowing the big picture and plot points: "king arthur", "robin hood". even "titanic"

 

and really, in modern heroic fiction, we DO KNOW who will win. and we still enjoy it. does anyone truly believe that the resistance won't triumph in the new Star Wars films? or that sherlock won't solve the mystery? or the avengers won't beat loki? the winner is almost always assured.

 

we know how the horus heresy plays out at the siege of terra. are we hoping for a surprise tau appearance on the vengeful spirit as they lower its shields? or are we along for the ride for the ride itself in full knowledge of where the roller coaster will end?

[Karthak]

So, you all will have to forgive me but I'm a bit confused as to all the protest (I guess) that came out of this book, because I just finished The Path of Heaven and it seems a thematic companion to everything stated here?

 

It touches on all the same points.

 

 

 

1. Obsoleting of various branches of the Crusade.

2. Emperor having a timeline and goal to phase out various aspects of the Imperium.

3. Emperor and Khan having an opposing view due to the lies which are the Imperial Truth.

4. The critical importance of the Webway Project, and Magnus' fate.

5. Most importantly, the fact that there is no victory left for the Imperium.

 

 

 

So why all the rage and denial directed at MoM? As far as I can tell, its the same concepts.

 

Note: I still do not have my PRE-ORDERED BOOK, but it sure seems to touch on the same themes, and reinforces what MoM states?

The most common gripes I've seen are with the "inevitable Chaos victory!" narrative, and the way the Emperor's relationship with the Primarchs is depicted. Him referring to them either as "it" or with numbers for most of the book was...not popular in the 40k circles I frequent.

[A D-B]

I personally don't have a problem with saying that Chaos can win.

 

I have a problem with how unequivocal the book is about it. Or rendering the rest of the universe moot.

 

I like subtelty. I like ambiguity. Both those things are missing from this book. It's like being being hit with sledgehammer that has "Chaos will win!" written on it again, and again, and again.

 

No, no. Quite the opposite. It's saying "This is the first step to 40K, where Chaos has won." Which is something anyone with even a cursory grasp of the setting has always known. Chaos wins the Horus Heresy (Horus does not, Chaos does) and sets everything on the path to the Dark Millennium. We'll never see past that, of course. That's got nothing to do with me. That's the setting. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

 

It's not saying "lol abaddon/chaos will kill the emperor lol." That would be trite and silly. We, as readers and fans, already know that will never happen. I'm amazed that needs explaining or quantifying. I won't discuss it again in two threads, especially when the other one has far better analysis, but to cut and paste:

 

 

 

"In one of the short stories (I want to say... from 2014? I think?), Khayon mentions struggling to be in the same room as Abaddon when he's carrying Drach'nyen. And it's not a huge spoiler to say that he doesn't think Drach'nyen is an A+ addition to the team.

 

But then, something I've not seen picked up on much (and this is surely down to me just not explaining it well, though I thought I'd covered it in a combination of The Talon of Horus and various repetitive forum/blog posts, as well as trusting in people's setting knowledge in general) is that the entire concept of Abaddon wielding Drach'nyen is an infinite loop, in a sense.

 

1. Abaddon refuses to let Chaos overwhelm him and exalt him, because then he'd no longer be himself. He's fighting for the Legions - the angels returning to Heaven and rebelling against God - he's not fighting not for Chaos.

2. Abaddon carries Drach'nyen, which believes it is destined to kill the Emperor.

3. Chaos won't let Abaddon win (unless he devotes himself to them) because a win for Abaddon isn't the same as a win for Chaos.

4. Back to 1.

 

It's the ultimate infinite loop of the setting, really. You have the thematic Antichrist of 40K. You have the "Midnight" of the "Two minutes to midnight" fame, that we know is fated to happen - intellectually, if not in reality, which is a key qualification. And then you have the one aspect that we know will keep the cycle continually looping: Chaos's best shot is Abaddon, and Abaddon's best shot is Chaos, but they can never truly align. Abaddon's story is of the thwarted villain, not the victorious antihero. That's kinda implied in that whole "thematic Antichrist" and "The setting's primary bad guy" stuff.

 

When you analyse and talk about this stuff endlessly for work, then write about it for work, then in your free time as well, spread across countless blogs, social media posts, forums, and emails, it's difficult to pin down exactly what people have read, let alone what they know from their own readings of the lore, let alone what they actually perceive. That's why the "ADB is changing stuff and is now saying Chaos will win" accusation is so strange in some ways - albeit understandable in others.

 

Ultimately, I'm not saying anything new. Chaos "will" (you could argue, already has) in terms of humanity not being able to split from it and dooming humanity to the cycle of eternal war, and as TMoM shows, the Imperium of 40K takes its first step into the darkness. Chaos winning is the result we can intellectually project or point to right now, but that obviously we'll never see happen in any "absolute" sense.

 

The strangest thing, of course is that I've seen people who have literally said the Imperium wouldn't survive the tyranids or that the Imperium is doomed once the necrons all wake up now saying it's bad that I said the Imperium wouldn't survive Chaos. Go figure."

 

Here're the replies in detail:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/?p=4577609

[HeritorA]

It was a 1000 die a day. 10,000 are strapped to the Astronomican.

Yeppers. 1,000 of the Golden Throne's batteries wear out every day. Grim stuff.

I'm just wondering...the astronomican existed prior to the events of this book, and before MoM it wasn't aided by feeding psykers into it. How did it stay ticking back then?

That's a difficult question to answer because it's not really related to the book or previous Heresy lore. The Golden Throne's function in the Heresy - and, indeed, in TMoM - isn't primarily to power the Astronomican, and that's not really why they start to plug psykers into it. Collected Visions and TMoM show what else it's for, obviously - and why at various junctures it needs alternate fuel sources (psykers in one instance, Malcador in another).

If you look at the timeline, it all adds up. We were careful about that.

Yes you were. And thanks again for appearing and giving us amazing explanations

EDIT: Actually, never mind. I may have jumped ahead in the release schedule.

Congrats, lol

[HeritorA]

Where did you think people were getting their lore from? There's a reference to one right on the first page of this thread.

black library shuts down. in the grim dark future of 40k fiction, there is only reddit

Reddit is an Eye of Terror. All using it are hereteks :)

People should cease quoting me out of context, now... I know, it was fun while it lasted, and I was an easy scapegoat for the collective rages. But no more.

If you want to be part of the discussion on TheFirstExpedition, I suggest you go and be part of the discussion on TheFirstExpedition.

What Laurie said - thumbs up!

I personally don't have a problem with saying that Chaos can win.

I have a problem with how unequivocal the book is about it. Or rendering the rest of the universe moot.

I like subtelty. I like ambiguity. Both those things are missing from this book. It's like being being hit with sledgehammer that has "Chaos will win!" written on it again, and again, and again.

No, no. Quite the opposite. It's saying "This is the first step to 40K, where Chaos has won." Which is something anyone with even a cursory grasp of the setting has always known. Chaos wins the Horus Heresy (Horus does not, Chaos does) and sets everything on the path to the Dark Millennium. We'll never see past that, of course. That's got nothing to do with me. That's the setting. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

It's not saying "lol abaddon/chaos will kill the emperor lol." That would be trite and silly. We, as readers and fans, already know that will never happen. I'm amazed that needs explaining or quantifying. I won't discuss it again in two threads, especially when the other one has far better analysis, but to cut and paste:

"In one of the short stories (I want to say... from 2014? I think?), Khayon mentions struggling to be in the same room as Abaddon when he's carrying Drach'nyen. And it's not a huge spoiler to say that he doesn't think Drach'nyen is an A+ addition to the team.

But then, something I've not seen picked up on much (and this is surely down to me just not explaining it well, though I thought I'd covered it in a combination of The Talon of Horus and various repetitive forum/blog posts, as well as trusting in people's setting knowledge in general) is that the entire concept of Abaddon wielding Drach'nyen is an infinite loop, in a sense.

1. Abaddon refuses to let Chaos overwhelm him and exalt him, because then he'd no longer be himself. He's fighting for the Legions - the angels returning to Heaven and rebelling against God - he's not fighting not for Chaos.

2. Abaddon carries Drach'nyen, which believes it is destined to kill the Emperor.

3. Chaos won't let Abaddon win (unless he devotes himself to them) because a win for Abaddon isn't the same as a win for Chaos.

4. Back to 1.

It's the ultimate infinite loop of the setting, really. You have the thematic Antichrist of 40K. You have the "Midnight" of the "Two minutes to midnight" fame, that we know is fated to happen - intellectually, if not in reality, which is a key qualification. And then you have the one aspect that we know will keep the cycle continually looping: Chaos's best shot is Abaddon, and Abaddon's best shot is Chaos, but they can never truly align. Abaddon's story is of the thwarted villain, not the victorious antihero. That's kinda implied in that whole "thematic Antichrist" and "The setting's primary bad guy" stuff.

When you analyse and talk about this stuff endlessly for work, then write about it for work, then in your free time as well, spread across countless blogs, social media posts, forums, and emails, it's difficult to pin down exactly what people have read, let alone what they know from their own readings of the lore, let alone what they actually perceive. That's why the "ADB is changing stuff and is now saying Chaos will win" accusation is so strange in some ways - albeit understandable in others.

Ultimately, I'm not saying anything new. Chaos "will" (you could argue, already has) in terms of humanity not being able to split from it and dooming humanity to the cycle of eternal war, and as TMoM shows, the Imperium of 40K takes its first step into the darkness. Chaos winning is the result we can intellectually project or point to right now, but that obviously we'll never see happen in any "absolute" sense.

The strangest thing, of course is that I've seen people who have literally said the Imperium wouldn't survive the tyranids or that the Imperium is doomed once the necrons all wake up now saying it's bad that I said the Imperium wouldn't survive Chaos. Go figure."

Here're the replies in detail:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/?p=4577609

Thank you A D-B! Your appearances on forums are always welcome!

[Rob P]

Following from conclusion of MOM, I wonder if the Emperor's view that his dream is now shattered might pave the way for Malcador stepping up and trying to work out a pragmatic future rather than an ideal future. Obviously that can be frustrated my some choice to sit on a chair further down the line.

[Marshal Rohr]

The macro level arch is irrelevant too our own fluff and armies. Unless you play a prepackaged special character army or an army who's fluff is determined by codexes and novels like the big four, etc you are perfectly free to build and convert an Imperial army that is driving back chaos or reconquering lost territory or fighting a desperate delaying action against an overwhelming tide of Chaos. You are neither wrong nor right to build your own 'pocket fluff' this way. Where you run into problems is when your personal fluff starts claiming characters bigger than you deserve to claim or when you change objective truths (Blood Angels cure their curse, missing Legions, Abaddon is scared of your chapter master, Chapters are 10k strong). If you can carve out your own section of the universe entirely detached from studio, black library, and forge World fluff, you can tell any story you want independently of how the wheel of the universe are spinning. Mankinds macro level failure to defeat chaos is irrelevant when your own sector, unspoiled by official fluff, can be the shining beacon of hope in the darkness.

 

It's pointless to argue the merits of the larger setting and author choices, because we have zero impact on that. In a very real sense it's as useless as complaining about Air Pods on the iPhone 7. No one cares what we think, it doesn't matter what our opinions are, and we can't change it. So we can discuss it for fun but complaining about it is useless.

[mc warhammer]

Abaddon is scared of your chapter master

actual lol at this.

[Marshal Rohr]

You'd be surprised how many times we had to fight wars over not using using special characters as Worf in the old liber. It's converse (right word?) is being best friends or saving the life of a loyal chapter master of renown like Calgar or Dante. It's part of the 'Heros Journey' of every new liberite, falling somewhere between loyalist chapter from traitor geneseed (which is a real thing now) and female marines/lost Legions.

[MrDarth151]

 

No, no. Quite the opposite. It's saying "This is the first step to 40K, where Chaos has won." Which is something anyone with even a cursory grasp of the setting has always known. Chaos wins the Horus Heresy (Horus does not, Chaos does) and sets everything on the path to the Dark Millennium. We'll never see past that, of course. That's got nothing to do with me. That's the setting. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

 

See, this is where we both agree and disagree. You are saying "The setting is grim darkness of 40k where there is only war, and in the future we will never see, Chaos will win". I argue that setting presents itself in a manner of "The setting is grimd darkness of 40k where there is only war and in the future we will never see, an end of which we cannot be quite certain".

 

Star Child theory, resurrection of the Emperor proposed by Thorians, hell, the main rulebook outright stating that as long as the Emperor lives, hope remains and ascension of Humanity into their true psychic form remains a possibility. Just to mention elements that suggest that Imperium might still prevail and win, to say nothing of those suggesting that one of the alien races will fulfill their win conditions. Both Tyranids and Necrons have heavy anti-Chaos elements to them. They all show up, and I do not believe dismissing them out of hand in favour "no matter what, Chaos will win" is particulary good premise. Or interesting one, when setting fully allows for variety.

 

And yes, I am aware that there are people that find ultimate doom at Chaos hands compelling storytelling, I simply do not.

 

But I will talk more about why I do not think it works after I finish the book.

 

 

The strangest thing, of course is that I've seen people who have literally said the Imperium wouldn't survive the tyranids or that the Imperium is doomed once the necrons all wake up now saying it's bad that I said the Imperium wouldn't survive Chaos. Go figure."

 

Because of your position? Random fan saying "Yeah, Tyranids are going totally eat the galaxy!" is different from "I'm Aaron Dembki-Bowden, writer for Black Library with access to editorial and management levels of GW and I say with that authority behind me that Chaos is going to win".

 

Your position gives your words different weight.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Get back on topic people

 

Create a new topic if you wish to continue this conversation

[simison]

Get back on topic people

 

Create a new topic if you wish to continue this conversation

 

Very good. Then I'll ask one question and bow out of the thread. Can anybody tell what's the image on the Emperor's belt on the front cover? I can't tell if it's just a golden ring, or if it's some text.

[MrDarth151]

Get back on topic people

 

Create a new topic if you wish to continue this conversation

 

Isn't it on topic, though? I would consider the place of the book within wider thematic whole of 40k universe part of the critique.

 

But, as you wish.

[Scribe]

Get back on topic people

 

Create a new topic if you wish to continue this conversation

 

Whats off topic here, we are talking about (and I appreciate all the responses yet still have nothing saying I'm wrong in how I view the setting as Rohr states at the Macro level) the book and the statements it REITERATES about the setting.

 

The Codex's for the various factions dont exactly paint a picture of hope or chance. Personally, I love the starchild stuff, a pity its seemingly been forgotten. I'm all about a reborn God-Emperor, but they still wont have the webway, and will still be bound to the Warp, Mutants, and Space Marines (and potentially Primarchs) so...He still 'lost' as far as He is concerned.

 

Hell, wake the Emperor up for real, let him look at what 40K has become, you cannot possibly tell me that He would consider it anything but the most grotesque of defeats.

 

This is my issue I guess, in what way other then maybe some misguided statements in the 7th edition book, is 40K anything but a loss for Humanity? Thats my point. It doesnt even need to be Chaos, it doesnt need to be Necrons, or Nids, all of which will ALSO LOSE in their own way.

 

Chaos? Self consuming. No Lord/Champion (even Abby!) is more than a Slave to Darkness, a self enforcing and referencing loop of madness. That is what defeat looks like to Chaos Space Marines, the faction.

 

Necrons? They are on a short ride to madness. Their codex points this out clearly. Transhumanism (transnecrontry?) has given them immortality, but at what cost? Their minds. They will all end up Flayers, eventually. That is what defeat looks like to them.

 

Nids? They eat everything! They win! Oh, wait, now they are out of biomass...shoot. Their victory is their defeat.

 

The Deathwatch? Well the last note in their codex notes how they are overwhelmed, 'stretched to the breaking point and beyond.' Does that sound like something you come back from?

 

The only faction that has a chance, really, truthfully, at winning? Orks. They are content to conquer, consume, destroy, and even fight their own, forever. They could kill everyone, and then just fight among themselves for eternity.

 

AdMech? Well they are proud of ignorance, of self defeating practices, and are on a one way trip to the Dark Eldar (who are ALSO going to lose with Khaines Gate) to try and rez the big E. Sounds like a victorious faction to me.

 

---

 

40K is not a story of hope, its a story of everyone LOSING. ADB has NOT printed anything new. Its the fundamental truth of the setting that Humanity in 40K has 'lost' to Chaos. Just as every other faction is lost in its own way.

[Mellow]

Unfortunately the story of their trip into the webway to talk with Eldar about resurrection options (or even options for repairing the throne) will most likely never ever be written.

 

Which makes everyone sad.