Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Mellow]

I finally got the book in a couple of days ago and 50 pages in. I have to say I love the book thus far. I also love the Murder scene and the "childhood" memory with Ra, you get this feeling of something deep here. I haven't really read much of this tread to avoid spoilers but I really enjoy the deeper look with the Custodes and their relationship with the Emperor (They are unbelievable arrogant...I guess justifiable).

I also like how we get a view on the Legions, that they are seen as "inferior" for the reasons they mention. I always assumed that there was this understanding and respect between the Astartes and Custodes but it seems clear that this is not the case.

Sad that once I am done with this book there is nothing super exciting on the horizon. Going from books like Scars 2, PoD to this always felt there something really good in the pipeline. The future stuff looks good but definitely not on the same level as PoD and MoM.

On the same level? Maybe, maybe not. I find I get spoiled by the 'highs' in the series and some stuff I personally have to grind with, so MoM was something I pre-bought with a lot of expectation (who didn't?)

Also it's not just the writing, it's the content they get to write about. There are some areas of the story I could read over and over, and for me some I could have skipped.

To be fair Sigismund sparred with Angron.

That's were he got the idea of chaining the weapons.

If you want to be pedantic Siggy never lost a duel ( but I don't think that one counts for the duel score, after all it's a marine vs a primarch.)

It was on an white dwarf sometime ago.

I also thought that was Khârn, and to be honest, if I remember the scene, Khârn totally phoned that in. It nearly turned into a farting contest and I don't think Khârn took it seriously... (Was that with Tal Argon or am I thinking of a different scene?)

Let me as those that have finished MoM a question without actually giving me spoilers:

By the end of the book, do you get a sense of -what- the Emperor is? IE: Another perpetual? A Daemon? A one off fluke? Or is that left widely to interpretation?

He's a perpetual. Perpetual means never ending or changing so He's one by definition.

But as we know the perpetuals all seem to have different specific traits along the same lines.

[Scribe]

We still dont know what the E is, hes clearly not 'just' a perpetual. 

[LaurieJGoulding]

It was definitely Khârn. White Dwarf writers don't read/listen to all of the BL content, sadly. This sounds like a miscommunication on their part, somewhere.

 

Just to reiterate something I'm surprised isn't common knowledge - White Dwarf most definitely is NOT canon.

 

I mean, they still confuse Legiones Astartes and Adeptus Astartes on an almost monthly basis. Lolz.

[Lord Blackwood]

Sigismund is noted as dueling with Kahrn not Angron  in the Audio Drama Templar 

It is not that Kahn is phoning it in maybe not fighting to his full potential as in  trying to kill Sigismund ( he remarks as much himself but I  wont spoil anything really cause Templar is a must listen / read if you are a Imperial Fists or Black Templar Fan)  , he is restraining himself though as there is a very interesting little bit about him needing to calm down between rounds due to the nails. 
 

[Sete]

It was definitely Khârn. White Dwarf writers don't read/listen to all of the BL content, sadly. This sounds like a miscommunication on their part, somewhere.

 

Just to reiterate something I'm surprised isn't common knowledge - White Dwarf most definitely is NOT canon.

 

I mean, they still confuse Legiones Astartes and Adeptus Astartes on an almost monthly basis. Lolz.

Na sorry, I'm going with Angron ;)

Too late now it's out in the world!

I heard Templar, quite enjoyable.

Khârn still didn't have a chance tho ;)

But we are straying wildly off topic, so old emps and daemons what's up with that? Crazy right.

A shame Valdor didn't get too much page time, I wanted to read a bit more about him.

And now to throw some wood into the fire, and also cause I'm interested on making up some heretical fluff down the road, Corax had access to some gene tech to make the Raptors, could that tech be related to the custodes in any way and the way they "make" them?

Also after reading MoM I frown upon the ending of the Beast Arises, where it is said the Grey Knights are greater then the Custodes. It's hard to grasp the "power levels" , but I'm under the impression that they fall short on that description.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I very much doubt an astartee could spar with a child in anything less than a "teacher, child learner" manor.  Like a veteran coach teaching a kid to box on the basic level. 

 

Sigi earned his name in the world eater fighting pits, where he earned the name "The Black Knight". Makes me sad that half the brothers turned to chaos. All astartees should be brothers in arms. 

[b1soul]

Valdor every time. This is the guy that could spar with the Primarchs.

In what source does Valdor spar with a primarch?

[Scribe]

 

Valdor every time. This is the guy that could spar with the Primarchs.

In what source does Valdor spar with a primarch?

 

 

Not sure, but i've seen it often, one of the shorts or audio's I assume.

[b1soul]

Not sure, but i've seen it often, one of the shorts or audio's I assume.

This is an old and, in my experience, never substantiated claim

 

If a source exists, I don't think it's BL

 

Prob White Dwarf

[LaurieJGoulding]

This is my problem with internet discussion - someone makes a claim, with no cited source. That claim becomes a contentious discussion, then accepted fact.

 

Most of the misconceptions about Warhammer (in all of the franchises) come from someone missing the nuance in a text, and taking it the wrong way. They state their opinion as fact, and others then believe it without checking.

 

Angron being confused with Khârn I can understand, since WD seems to have mistakenly swapped them in an article somewhere. Sigh.

[Sete]

Well BT lore has been changed so much, people mostly assumed it was another one of those shenanigans.

 

Undoubtedly Khârn makes a lot more sense than THE close combat Primarch. Even the "weakest" Primarch would be more than enough for old Siggy.

[LaurieJGoulding]

I'm not sure that would even count as a duel. Maybe just an execution...?

[Sete]

It would be over fairly quick for sure.

[Legatus]

This is my problem with internet discussion - someone makes a claim, with no cited source. That claim becomes a contentious discussion, then accepted fact.

Kind of how the Ultramarines were suddenly turned into "empire builders"?

Or how the Heresy turned into "seven years"?

Ok, the last one I can see as a conscious decision to put more stuff in...

[A D-B]

Most of the misconceptions about Warhammer (in all of the franchises) come from someone missing the nuance in a text, and taking it the wrong way. They state their opinion as fact, and others then believe it without checking.

 

Testify.

[Sete]

Yeah there's a guy around, saying that Abbadon will kill Sigismund but I haven't seen any evidence. Shameless he is. :D

[Loesh]

Nah we've already talked about this, Sigismund died at a ripe old age after falling down a flight of stairs.

 

The Eternal Crusader has had railings installed on every single staircase in it's complex so that this tragedy could never ever be repeated again.

[HeritorA]

I'm not sure that would even count as a duel. Maybe just an execution...?

Lols

[MrDarth151]

It was definitely Khârn. White Dwarf writers don't read/listen to all of the BL content, sadly. This sounds like a miscommunication on their part, somewhere.

 

Just to reiterate something I'm surprised isn't common knowledge - White Dwarf most definitely is NOT canon.

 

I mean, they still confuse Legiones Astartes and Adeptus Astartes on an almost monthly basis. Lolz.

 

Wait, we actually have canon policy for 40k?

 

This is my problem with internet discussion - someone makes a claim, with no cited source. That claim becomes a contentious discussion, then accepted fact.

 

Most of the misconceptions about Warhammer (in all of the franchises) come from someone missing the nuance in a text, and taking it the wrong way. They state their opinion as fact, and others then believe it without checking.

 

That's a problem with any discussion, not helped by the fact that 40k can honestly be inconsistent.

 

That said, there is also death of the author to take into account. There are factual misconceptions (Like ADB's example of people thinking that tactical dreadnought armour and terminator armour are not one and the same), and then there are interpretations conflicts, like the one between me and ADB as to whatever the humanity, and by extension the universe, is ultimately doomed to fall to Chaos.

[Sete]

Nah we've already talked about this, Sigismund died at a ripe old age after falling down a flight of stairs.

 

The Eternal Crusader has had railings installed on every single staircase in it's complex so that this tragedy could never ever be repeated again.

It was the lack of Health and Safety policies that made Abby lose his arms. ;)

You can't just start a Black Crusade without the proper safety measures.

Talking about arms it's about damn time Abby gets a new mini.

But once again we digress.

 

So Abbadon won't have the Daemon sword in this book.

I wonder for what reason did he need a sword.

The Talon is enough of a good weapon.

I hope that eventually we get some insight into that.

God dammit I'm on the wrong thread again xD

 

While I'm at it, We also saw the End of Empires (the other name is a mess to write) easily possessing people, is Abbadon immune to possession? Or in the end is just the sword that actually has control over his actions? It went from a "feral daemon" to a somewhat intelligente one, in a short span while it battled the Custodes and Sisters, grew so powerful that the emperor could not even destroy it.

What better candidate to possess than Abbadon. He murdered his father (Horus and the Biological one on his rite of passage?), he murdered his Astarte's brothers.

I have so many questions on how he could bend the Daemon to his will. Unless the Daemon is the one in control, the one that made daemon primarchs bend to his will.

 

Taking it one step further, this is a daemon born of humans, like slanesh was born of eldar. If Abby slays the Emperor with The End of Empires, I can see a new God Of Chaos appearing.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Probably something along the lines of abaddon is the Emperors uncle reborn. Or whatever

[Sandlemad]

 

What better candidate to possess than Abbadon. He murdered his father (Horus and the Biological one on his rite of passage?), he murdered his Astarte's brothers.

I have so many questions on how he could bend the Daemon to his will. Unless the Daemon is the one in control, the one that made daemon primarchs bend to his will.

 

 

Or their goals align (for now) and everything Drach'nyen would strip from Abaddon by possessing him - willpower, charisma, a sense of a grand plan - would actually make him less worthwhile as an subject of possession. Maybe they've come to some sort of accord.

[Mellow]

This is my problem with internet discussion - someone makes a claim, with no cited source. That claim becomes a contentious discussion, then accepted fact.

Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. :)

[Mellow]

Abaddon has no charisma. He was a grumpy sod and now he is a hermit.

[Loesh]

Abaddon has no charisma. He was a grumpy sod and now he is a hermit.

 

That's part of the problem, writing someone to be charismatic is absurdly difficult, they have been struggling with that the Primarchs for as long as the fluff has existed. Even then, with some variance in taste, it's only stuck to a few.