Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[LaurieJGoulding]

Wait, we actually have canon policy for 40k?

 

Pleased to meet you.

 

Well, obviously I'm not.

 

 

there are interpretations conflicts, like the one between me and ADB as to whatever the humanity, and by extension the universe, is ultimately doomed to fall to Chaos.

 

That's a shame, then, because it seems you've picked the wrong cause to champion. I'm not sure whether you venerate Alan Merrett and Rick Priestley, but both of them have often said that Chaos will win, and mankind is doomed, and we're just repeating the folly of the eldar, und so weiter, und so weiter...

 

(But from what I've gathered, you just like trying to argue with AD-B in a public forum using the longest words and most convoluted grammar possible.)

 

Of course, this matters not a tinker's cuss to your enjoyment of Warhammer. If you don't like the official storylines, or the principles of the setting, you absolutely SHOULD feel free to follow your own path with it all. Literally, do whatever makes you happy. It's all toy soldiers, and we're all massive geeks.

 

But you can't tell a published author they're wrong. The evidence is most definitely against you.

[Vesper]

Abaddon has no charisma. He was a grumpy sod and now he is a hermit.

Feels to me he's done being a pilgrim by The Talon of Horus. Now he is a warlord. He appears like the only First Captain who actually evolved. From a general to a warlord to warmaster, that's a great resume.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Abaddon has no charisma. He was a grumpy sod and now he is a hermit.

Feels to me he's done being a pilgrim by The Talon of Horus. Now he is a warlord. He appears like the only First Captain who actually evolved. From a general to a warlord to warmaster, that's a great resume.

In this job market he'd still be doing unpaid internships.

[Mellow]

It's like saying Horus was charismatic. I don't believe it. We've all seen the lack of eyes that the Primarchs have. Just look at the two recent Primarch books we have. Plus on the front of MoM. I'm not feeling any charisma from a pretend human that wasn't born from a womb that has no pupils or normal eyes.

 

:)

[mc warhammer]

That said, there is also death of the author to take into account. There are factual misconceptions (Like ADB's example of people thinking that tactical dreadnought armour and terminator armour are not one and the same), and then there are interpretations conflicts, like the one between me and ADB as to whatever the humanity, and by extension the universe, is ultimately doomed to fall to Chaos.

people swing "death of the author" around like a secret weapon that they can launch at actual authors to cause non actual death.

 

maybe DEATH OF THE AUTHOR was the war cry of one of the missing legions?

 

in any case, it's become synonymous with the whole internet version of post modernist "any interpretation is valid" when really, DoA was more a reaction against biographical/psychoanalysis basis for critique of an author's work.

[mc warhammer]

It's all toy soldiers, and we're all massive geeks.

 

pfft, speak for yourself. from what I've seen most of the guys on here are cool as heck. myself not included

[LaurieJGoulding]

We do have very complex analytical algorithms set up on the various web communities. Any time anyone uses the phrase "death of the author" in that context, we assume they don't want to write for BL and blacklist them immediately (and all their descendents too...)

 

But, in all seriousness, it's why I often urge people not to try and best me or our very-much-alive authors online. We have the power to deny you in more than just an immediate, argumentative sense.

 

(I've commissioned stories to prove points. Blackshield was Chris Wraight helping me to demonstrate a common misunderstanding from the FW books. Great story, though.)

 

Of course, the repeat offenders (as in, they regularly cause offence with their choice of words) aren't going to accept any published material as proof that their head-canon is wrong. [shrug]

[DarkChaplain]

Geek culture has become far too trendy for my taste. So many people who wouldn't know who Legolas was if it hadn't been for Orlando Bloom overacting him. And then those rallying cries about "reclaiming geek culture" by wannabe trendy clickbait artists and pretentious starbucks patrons when really, the door had always been open to anybody passionate and willing to engage with the topics anyway...

Labelling yourself as a geek has become a grasping for relevance in modern society, while the person claiming to be one tends to be... anything but.

 

But that's just me being a contrarian due to being sick of mass media and so-called "culture icons" like "Queen of the Geeks" Felicia Day. Makes me shudder.

 

 

Rather than outright arguing with authors and editors, I find it far more interesting to explore why they think the way they do or approach a subject in the way they are. Having the context of their own interpretations is worth more than being right or wrong on a formality. Unless, of course, it is a gross mistake that really needs fixing in the next print run and ebook.

[mc warhammer]

We do have very complex analytical algorithms set up on the various web communities. Any time anyone uses the phrase "death of the author" in that context, we assume they don't want to write for BL and blacklist them immediately (and all their descendents too...)

 

But, in all seriousness, it's why I often urge people not to try and best me or our very-much-alive authors online. We have the power to deny you in more than just an immediate, argumentative sense.

 

(I've commissioned stories to prove points. Blackshield was Chris Wraight helping me to demonstrate a common misunderstanding from the FW books. Great story, though.)

 

Of course, the repeat offenders (as in, they regularly cause offence with their choice of words) aren't going to accept any published material as proof that their head-canon is wrong. [shrug]

ok, that actually made me laugh. i imagine though, you could publish a 40k novel where the end game is set in stone and there would be plenty of denial from certain sections of the readership.

 

that being said, bl/gw obviously encourages personal interpretations when the material calls for it. MoM is a great example with the questions raised about the emperor. but there are certain constants (like the setting or status quo or whatever) that don't have as much wiggle room.

 

don't get me wrong, i respect and partake in "head canon" myself. but it's with the full realisation that it's literally that. in my head. and only in my head.

 

as for "besting authors", there must be better hobbies out there...

[HeritorA]

Geek culture has become far too trendy for my taste. So many people who wouldn't know who Legolas was if it hadn't been for Orlando Bloom overacting him. And then those rallying cries about "reclaiming geek culture" by wannabe trendy clickbait artists and pretentious starbucks patrons when really, the door had always been open to anybody passionate and willing to engage with the topics anyway...

Labelling yourself as a geek has become a grasping for relevance in modern society, while the person claiming to be one tends to be... anything but.

But that's just me being a contrarian due to being sick of mass media and so-called "culture icons" like "Queen of the Geeks" Felicia Day. Makes me shudder.

Rather than outright arguing with authors and editors, I find it far more interesting to explore why they think the way they do or approach a subject in the way they are. Having the context of their own interpretations is worth more than being right or wrong on a formality. Unless, of course, it is a gross mistake that really needs fixing in the next print run and ebook.

Really - that's you saying.... Lol - don't joke so brother

We do have very complex analytical algorithms set up on the various web communities. Any time anyone uses the phrase "death of the author" in that context, we assume they don't want to write for BL and blacklist them immediately (and all their descendents too...)

But, in all seriousness, it's why I often urge people not to try and best me or our very-much-alive authors online. We have the power to deny you in more than just an immediate, argumentative sense.

(I've commissioned stories to prove points. Blackshield was Chris Wraight helping me to demonstrate a common misunderstanding from the FW books. Great story, though.)

Of course, the repeat offenders (as in, they regularly cause offence with their choice of words) aren't going to accept any published material as proof that their head-canon is wrong. [shrug]

Well played again!

[mc warhammer]

Geek culture has become far too trendy for my taste. So many people who wouldn't know who Legolas was if it hadn't been for Orlando Bloom overacting him. And then those rallying cries about "reclaiming geek culture" by wannabe trendy clickbait artists and pretentious starbucks patrons when really, the door had always been open to anybody passionate and willing to engage with the topics anyway...

Labelling yourself as a geek has become a grasping for relevance in modern society, while the person claiming to be one tends to be... anything but.

 

But that's just me being a contrarian due to being sick of mass media and so-called "culture icons" like "Queen of the Geeks" Felicia Day. Makes me shudder.

 

 

Rather than outright arguing with authors and editors, I find it far more interesting to explore why they think the way they do or approach a subject in the way they are. Having the context of their own interpretations is worth more than being right or wrong on a formality. Unless, of course, it is a gross mistake that really needs fixing in the next print run and ebook.

geek culture went mainstream. that's always a mix of good and bad, but it probably means the stuff you love will have a huge demand...so that's a win.

 

i don't know if i fit, personally. i love the hell out of this BL fiction but i don't read or watch much sci fi/space opera outside it. i just like cool stuff with a unique perspective, which 40k and horus heresy has been for me. so i guess i'm someone who's benefited from geek culture mainstreaming.

 

but back on topic: erm. is the offical abbreviation MoM or TMoM? it's very important we figure that out

[MrDarth151]

 

That's a shame, then, because it seems you've picked the wrong cause to champion. I'm not sure whether you venerate Alan Merrett and Rick Priestley, but both of them have often said that Chaos will win, and mankind is doomed, and we're just repeating the folly of the eldar, und so weiter, und so weiter...

 

(But from what I've gathered, you just like trying to argue with AD-B in a public forum using the longest words and most convoluted grammar possible.)

 

Of course, this matters not a tinker's cuss to your enjoyment of Warhammer. If you don't like the official storylines, or the principles of the setting, you absolutely SHOULD feel free to follow your own path with it all. Literally, do whatever makes you happy. It's all toy soldiers, and we're all massive geeks.

 

But you can't tell a published author they're wrong. The evidence is most definitely against you.

 

 

See, this is what I don't understand. I am not insane (at least, I hope so), and there are actually suggestions of possible alternate fates for the universe existing in the rulebooks and codexes. I have brought them up before. I can do so again, if you want to see which lines specifically I am talking about. Point is, they do exist.

 

It's not about my headcanon, or anything of the sorts, just my confusion as why those lines of suggestion exist in the books, if we are to take the path of the setting being irrevocably doomed. If there is really no place for ambiguity, why put things that suggest that ambiguity exists?

 

Also, apologies if for the form. English is not my native language, and I am basically self-taught when it comes to using it, it is hard sometimes to write things down.

[Sete]

MoM. Just because.

What matters is the journey Darth, not the destination.

Either doomed or not, we stopped the bus on the last stop before the end.

I never even considered 40k to have a happy ending. Just a slow miserable grind to an eventual death.

And that's why I like the (ambiguous) good guys.

Against all odds they stood for millennia, Matter not if was traitor xeno or heretic. With just their strength of will guts and massive firepower, and willingness to make sacrifices that sometimes the bad guys hesitate doing.

Enjoy it for what it is, not what it could be.

My personal opinion on this matter.

[LaurieJGoulding]

I've always said TMoM.

 

As in, in emails to Aaron with the header "Your TMoM so fat..." etc etc.

[Jareddm]

Of course, this matters not a tinker's cuss to your enjoyment of Warhammer. If you don't like the official storylines, or the principles of the setting, you absolutely SHOULD feel free to follow your own path with it all. Literally, do whatever makes you happy. It's all toy soldiers, and we're all massive geeks.

The issue from this comes in the form of new players and people just getting into the setting. When new players have a question, they don't tend to go to the novels or lore books. They go to the forums. There their questions are answered using a mix of canon and headcannon. Cut to a decade later and you've got people wondering why they can't find a source for something they've based their entire interpretation of 40k around, or angry that something has changed based on an incorrect belief in, "it's always been this way."

[A D-B]

I've always said TMoM.

 

As in, in emails to Aaron with the header "Your TMoM so fat..." etc etc.

 

Confirmed as true.

 

My earliest ever email on the subject (from Nick Kyme) is "MoM", but there's one soon after where I mentioned about preferring it with a The. A year or so before that, I did the same with The Talon of Horus. The default title had no The, but I think adding a The is all classy an' stuff.

 

Just in case you thought this post couldn't get any more tedious, well, buckle up. When it came time to choose whether it was The Master of Mankind: War in the Webway, or Master of Mankind: The War in the Webway, my responses were variously "Whatever you prefer", "I don't mind", and "Is the cover done yet can I see the cover please Laurie come on."

[Sete]

Sometimes even in the Wiki/lexicanum content is not updated for a while, and that might lead people astray.

For example new BT lore.

Worshipping Emperor and praising astrophats.

Some people still don't accept it, and sometimes even the sites aren't updated with the new lore.

In a setting so massive as 40k I think its an ordinary thing to actually have wrong info.

Also we (and by we I mean I) need more Black Templars books.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Eldar and Mankind will unite in the end. Scary Part is The Emperor knows it, but can't let it be known, that he knows it.

 

My speculation for the confusion of others.

 

Any who, this is the same with all things. I have seen it written that Mankind is doomed and accept that. But I also accept that this may change due to being an unpopular notion and hope that a "we are doomed...........unless" Option is made available.  With regards to the above post. Could not of put it better myself, sad fact is that we will never change that. Problem with the 30k/40k universe is that it's so big and presents such a variety that we all cling to the aspects we like the most or interpret them in our own way. It's impossible to please all individuals, especially when there are some that act like they live in the warhammer universe. 

 

Be that as it may, I rather enjoy reading conflicting fluff and cannon that alludes to how I interpret something

[MrDarth151]

Sometimes even in the Wiki/lexicanum content is not updated for a while, and that might lead people astray.

For example new BT lore.

Worshipping Emperor and praising astrophats.

Some people still don't accept it, and sometimes even the sites aren't updated with the new lore.

In a setting so massive as 40k I think its an ordinary thing to actually have wrong info.

Also we (and by we I mean I) need more Black Templars books.

 

Oh no, taking information from wiki is silly in and of itself, not only do they have un-updated info, they also spread misinformation.

 

And agreed on more Black Templars books. I've just recently read Helsreach, and I quite liked it. Now, that I think was a well done book. Especially strong when it came to supporting cast.

[WarriorFish]

Discussion on the nature of interpretation should be taken elsewhere where it can be developed further. Author obituaries should be made in the N&R - everything else should stay on topic please. Thanks.

[Marshal Rohr]

We do have very complex analytical algorithms set up on the various web communities. Any time anyone uses the phrase "death of the author" in that context, we assume they don't want to write for BL and blacklist them immediately (and all their descendents too...)

 

But, in all seriousness, it's why I often urge people not to try and best me or our very-much-alive authors online. We have the power to deny you in more than just an immediate, argumentative sense.

 

(I've commissioned stories to prove points. Blackshield was Chris Wraight helping me to demonstrate a common misunderstanding from the FW books. Great story, though.)

 

Of course, the repeat offenders (as in, they regularly cause offence with their choice of words) aren't going to accept any published material as proof that their head-canon is wrong. [shrug]

What's death of the author in the context of BL?

[LaurieJGoulding]

It's a fairly universal concept, in terms of literature.

[Marshal Rohr]

From my understanding, it's just that work stands on its own, regardless of author prejudices and personal bias which is why I don't understand how it applies to BL. I've only ever seen it used to defend classical realism/liberalism from postmodernists/neoliberals labeling it orientalist or racist. The old 'different times' argument. Never seen it used for BL. Because now I think MrDarth is implying ADB is secretly racist, which wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think that's what he means.

[MrDarth151]

From my understanding, it's just that work stands on its own, regardless of author prejudices and personal bias which is why I don't understand how it applies to BL. I've only ever seen it used to defend classical realism/liberalism from postmodernists/neoliberals labeling it orientalist or racist. The old 'different times' argument. Never seen it used for BL. Because now I think MrDarth is implying ADB is secretly racist, which wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think that's what he means.

 

The death of the author divorces the work from intentions of the creator. So, say, it might be intention of ADB to present The Emperor in ambigious light, and I might say that the book does not present the Emperor in ambigious light. Both are not contrary to one another, because ADB can intend one thing and I can argue that the book does not actually conveys it.

 

And the implication that I wanted to accuse him of racism because I brought up a well know and universal tool of literary criticism is bloody eye-roll worhty.

[Scribe]

 

That's a shame, then, because it seems you've picked the wrong cause to champion. I'm not sure whether you venerate Alan Merrett and Rick Priestley, but both of them have often said that Chaos will win, and mankind is doomed, and we're just repeating the folly of the eldar, und so weiter, und so weiter...

 

 

Well thats nice to see, so to confirm that for this reason and in this case, I am not crazy.