The Red Thirst Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Ok so got the old noodle cooking regarding the Emperors depiction in 'Master of Mankind' and more specifically the names he gives to the Primarchs.As some of us have read, and this is not really any kind of spoiler, but E-money refers to his sons by their numeral. Most peoples reaction to this has been either indifferent or seeing it as callous, however I have another potential reason, "True Names".Now as we all know the Emperor has never revealed his name to anyone due to the power of a True Name and we have seen the effects of True Names upon mortals and daemons alike, it would be fair to assume that he held this same caution when it came to the Primarchs. As an example, in the Mortairians Heart audio drama, Kaldor Draigo uses the True Name of the Daemon Primarch to lay him low and weaken him to the point of banishment, this wasnt his 'birth' name of Mortarion but "the name the Emperor intended for him". Prior to this event and upon receiving this knowledge Draigo attempted to view the name but it burnt his mind like a hot iron brand. Is it possible that the Emperor names his sons by their Numeral as a protection or am I reading far too much into it? Afterall if the names we know the Primarchs by are mearly epithets then why not speak of them as their 'birth' world names instead of Numerals??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 I can dig it. Good theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 wouldn't their legion number be one of the first things people would try if they were trying to guess a Primarch's "true name". It is kind of like running through things like someone's kids names, birthdays, pet names etc if you are trying to guess their password. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 The fact that He gave Konrad Curze his name name seems to run contrary to that theory. I prefer the Eragon version of a true name, it being something that isn't in any mortal language and encapsulates the very essence of the being in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 He wouldn't refer to them by numeral to Land if he was protecting them, because then land wouldn't know! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 am I reading far too much into it? Yes. As pointed out, upon finding him the Emperor adressed Curze by his birth name, but the latter preferred to be called "Night Haunter". In 'Vengeful Spirit' in a conversation between Malcador and the Emperor they are both using the Primarchs' names, not numbers. If the Emperor wished to protect some hidden "true names" then he could simply have used their "common names" everyone knew about when talking to his Custodes and Mechanicus subjects. That he referred to them by their numbers instead was thus probably just meant to portray him as distant and calculating, at least in the perception of those subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 I would venture to say the number thing in MoM was more to play to the goldenboy's egos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 I would venture to say the number thing in MoM was more to play to the goldenboy's egos. Which is infinite in his 'hubris', lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 I've never had the inclination to believe that He had any names for the Primarchs. The worlds they lived on gave them those. He just calls them by numbers because frankly everyone you meet after a certain number of people becomes a "Dave" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Laertes Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 On The First Exploration forum, Laurie Goulding (BL's head editor of the Horus Heresy) stated that Mortarion was the only Primarch to be known, even to his brothers, with a name that was not the one the Emperor intended for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Roboute Guilliman was named on Macragge, not by the Emperor. He was named "Roboute" by his adoptive father Konor Guilliman. Similarly, Leman Russ was raised by King Thengor of the Russ on Fenris. On the other hand, Konrad Curze was adressed by that name by the Emperor when he found him, but Curze replied that it was not his name, that he was called "Night Haunter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Roboute Guilliman was named on Macragge, not by the Emperor. He was named "Roboute" by his adoptive father Konor Guilliman. Similarly, Leman Russ was raised by King Thengor of the Russ on Fenris. On the other hand, Konrad Curze was adressed by that name by the Emperor when he found him, but Curze replied that it was not his name, that he was called "Night Haunter". He had a third name - he is called 'BATMAN'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I wrote this in another thread but since its about how the Emperor names his Primarch it fits here as well We actually don´t know what he calls the primarch since we only hear him speak through everyone’s own perception. As stated in this thread He is everything to everyone. Even Ra questions if what the Emperor says and show him is the real deal or not. "When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?" This means that we always have to filter what is said through the listeners expectations: - All custodies are mistrusting of the Primarchs and space marines and blame them for all that is going down. In addition to their high regards of themselves as the Emperors companions it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” of everyone else as tools and of themselves as valuble assets and companions. - Land sees the Omnisia, logical, detatched and without emotions. He "hears" a divine monoton Emperor without any feelings for his creations given them just numbers instead of names. - In the prologue when the Emperor speaks to Magnus he "hears" his name, not “nr. 15” as for example Land "hears". If you dont aply the filter, big E is just sounding like uncaring ashole (and maby thats the thruth. Who knows ) Will readers take it at face value? Maybe! Here's the thing, though. The doubt is there in the novel, in enough detail that almost every reply, review, comment, and email I've seen either gets it, or otherwise understands the reasons for the way the Emperor refers to the primarchs as he does. Does this means he is the cuddly father figure to the Primarchs? Hell no, every description from their POV describe him as distant and aloof to them also. Does it means that he regards the Custodes as his closes companions and confidantes? We dont know but they regard them as such at least and that´s what we "hear" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 I wrote this in another thread but since its about how the Emperor names his Primarch it fits here as well We actually don´t know what he calls the primarch since we only hear him speak through everyone’s own perception. As stated in this thread He is everything to everyone. Even Ra questions if what the Emperor says and show him is the real deal or not. "When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?" This means that we always have to filter what is said through the listeners expectations: - All custodies are mistrusting of the Primarchs and space marines and blame them for all that is going down. In addition to their high regards of themselves as the Emperors companions it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” of everyone else as tools and of themselves as valuble assets and companions. - Land sees the Omnisia, logical, detatched and without emotions. He "hears" a divine monoton Emperor without any feelings for his creations given them just numbers instead of names. - In the prologue when the Emperor speaks to Magnus he "hears" his name, not “nr. 15” as for example Land "hears". If you dont aply the filter, big E is just sounding like uncaring ashole (and maby thats the thruth. Who knows ) Will readers take it at face value? Maybe! Here's the thing, though. The doubt is there in the novel, in enough detail that almost every reply, review, comment, and email I've seen either gets it, or otherwise understands the reasons for the way the Emperor refers to the primarchs as he does. Does this means he is the cuddly father figure to the Primarchs? Hell no, every description from their POV describe him as distant and aloof to them also. Does it means that he regards the Custodes as his closes companions and confidantes? We dont know but they regard them as such at least and that´s what we "hear" Ok, first off: The Emperor being distant and aloof to his sons is a matter of interpretation. Gav Thorpe and Graham McNeill wrote him in way that should make you question that at least. Second off, while I would give you Land, there is at least one instance I remember of the top of my head where the Emperor refers to Magnus by name during the conversation with Ra. If the theory about perception filter was correct, Ra should hear "Fifteenth", not Magnus, as we clearly see that he does not trust him, and in fact is so mad at him for breaking the Emperor's project that he tries to kill him in a flashback despite knowing it would do nothing. It's those little details like that, as well as the fact that every speaker we see with the Emperor, that cause the perception that ADB was going for consistent characterisation of the Emperor as an callous :cuss, with the perception filter altering little things, not the core of his thinking. That perception is then strengthened by the Ullanor conversation and implications that Emps is not above manipulating his sons and indulging them when it comes to how they see the world. It is actually one of the most foremost criticisms I have of the book: The idea that we can fit multiple interpretations of the Emperor does not find a lot of ground in the novel, when we get right to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZebraM Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Malcaldor is likely the only one who might have talked to the Emperor unfiltered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Malcaldor is likely the only one who might have talked to the Emperor unfiltered. And the Sisters of Silence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Malcaldor is likely the only one who might have talked to the Emperor unfiltered. And the Sisters of Silence? Impossible within the context of the novel, as they cannot communicate with him in any way other than telepatically, which is obviously not an option for the Sisters. Now, yes, I would assume it would work when he was still up and around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I wrote this in another thread but since its about how the Emperor names his Primarch it fits here as well We actually don´t know what he calls the primarch since we only hear him speak through everyone’s own perception. As stated in this thread He is everything to everyone. Even Ra questions if what the Emperor says and show him is the real deal or not. "When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?" This means that we always have to filter what is said through the listeners expectations: - All custodies are mistrusting of the Primarchs and space marines and blame them for all that is going down. In addition to their high regards of themselves as the Emperors companions it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” of everyone else as tools and of themselves as valuble assets and companions. - Land sees the Omnisia, logical, detatched and without emotions. He "hears" a divine monoton Emperor without any feelings for his creations given them just numbers instead of names. - In the prologue when the Emperor speaks to Magnus he "hears" his name, not “nr. 15” as for example Land "hears". If you dont aply the filter, big E is just sounding like uncaring ashole (and maby thats the thruth. Who knows ) Will readers take it at face value? Maybe! Here's the thing, though. The doubt is there in the novel, in enough detail that almost every reply, review, comment, and email I've seen either gets it, or otherwise understands the reasons for the way the Emperor refers to the primarchs as he does. Does this means he is the cuddly father figure to the Primarchs? Hell no, every description from their POV describe him as distant and aloof to them also. Does it means that he regards the Custodes as his closes companions and confidantes? We dont know but they regard them as such at least and that´s what we "hear" Ok, first off: The Emperor being distant and aloof to his sons is a matter of interpretation. Gav Thorpe and Graham McNeill wrote him in way that should make you question that at least. Second off, while I would give you Land, there is at least one instance I remember of the top of my head where the Emperor refers to Magnus by name during the conversation with Ra. If the theory about perception filter was correct, Ra should hear "Fifteenth", not Magnus, as we clearly see that he does not trust him, and in fact is so mad at him for breaking the Emperor's project that he tries to kill him in a flashback despite knowing it would do nothing. It's those little details like that, as well as the fact that every speaker we see with the Emperor, that cause the perception that ADB was going for consistent characterisation of the Emperor as an callous :cuss, with the perception filter altering little things, not the core of his thinking. That perception is then strengthened by the Ullanor conversation and implications that Emps is not above manipulating his sons and indulging them when it comes to how they see the world. It is actually one of the most foremost criticisms I have of the book: The idea that we can fit multiple interpretations of the Emperor does not find a lot of ground in the novel, when we get right to it. Except that trust isn't what determines he name you hear? Who hears it is. Do you not pay attention to what anyone says? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I do think there's something to be said for the notion that the Emperor's actions give a truer picture of how He views His sons. Especially when that tidal wave of fire is spearheaded by the revenant of Ferrus - the first blow the Emperor strikes against the forces of Chaos in open battle takes the form of His murdered son and grandsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I wrote this in another thread but since its about how the Emperor names his Primarch it fits here as well We actually don´t know what he calls the primarch since we only hear him speak through everyone’s own perception. As stated in this thread He is everything to everyone. Even Ra questions if what the Emperor says and show him is the real deal or not. "When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?" This means that we always have to filter what is said through the listeners expectations: - All custodies are mistrusting of the Primarchs and space marines and blame them for all that is going down. In addition to their high regards of themselves as the Emperors companions it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” of everyone else as tools and of themselves as valuble assets and companions. - Land sees the Omnisia, logical, detatched and without emotions. He "hears" a divine monoton Emperor without any feelings for his creations given them just numbers instead of names. - In the prologue when the Emperor speaks to Magnus he "hears" his name, not “nr. 15” as for example Land "hears". If you dont aply the filter, big E is just sounding like uncaring ashole (and maby thats the thruth. Who knows ) Will readers take it at face value? Maybe! Here's the thing, though. The doubt is there in the novel, in enough detail that almost every reply, review, comment, and email I've seen either gets it, or otherwise understands the reasons for the way the Emperor refers to the primarchs as he does. Does this means he is the cuddly father figure to the Primarchs? Hell no, every description from their POV describe him as distant and aloof to them also. Does it means that he regards the Custodes as his closes companions and confidantes? We dont know but they regard them as such at least and that´s what we "hear" Ok, first off: The Emperor being distant and aloof to his sons is a matter of interpretation. Gav Thorpe and Graham McNeill wrote him in way that should make you question that at least. Second off, while I would give you Land, there is at least one instance I remember of the top of my head where the Emperor refers to Magnus by name during the conversation with Ra. If the theory about perception filter was correct, Ra should hear "Fifteenth", not Magnus, as we clearly see that he does not trust him, and in fact is so mad at him for breaking the Emperor's project that he tries to kill him in a flashback despite knowing it would do nothing. It's those little details like that, as well as the fact that every speaker we see with the Emperor, that cause the perception that ADB was going for consistent characterisation of the Emperor as an callous , with the perception filter altering little things, not the core of his thinking. That perception is then strengthened by the Ullanor conversation and implications that Emps is not above manipulating his sons and indulging them when it comes to how they see the world. It is actually one of the most foremost criticisms I have of the book: The idea that we can fit multiple interpretations of the Emperor does not find a lot of ground in the novel, when we get right to it. Except that trust isn't what determines he name you hear? Who hears it is. Do you not pay attention to what anyone says? And you missed the fact that I was refering to the conversation that Ra has with the Emperor, where he refers to Magnus by name and to Rogal by number? If there is perception filter in place based on person, then it works inconsistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 That's referring to Magnus' Folly, a location Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Fifteenth's Folly ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I wrote this in another thread but since its about how the Emperor names his Primarch it fits here as well We actually don´t know what he calls the primarch since we only hear him speak through everyone’s own perception. As stated in this thread He is everything to everyone. Even Ra questions if what the Emperor says and show him is the real deal or not. "When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will?" This means that we always have to filter what is said through the listeners expectations: - All custodies are mistrusting of the Primarchs and space marines and blame them for all that is going down. In addition to their high regards of themselves as the Emperors companions it makes sense that they “hear” big E “speak” of everyone else as tools and of themselves as valuble assets and companions. - Land sees the Omnisia, logical, detatched and without emotions. He "hears" a divine monoton Emperor without any feelings for his creations given them just numbers instead of names. - In the prologue when the Emperor speaks to Magnus he "hears" his name, not “nr. 15” as for example Land "hears". If you dont aply the filter, big E is just sounding like uncaring ashole (and maby thats the thruth. Who knows ) Will readers take it at face value? Maybe! Here's the thing, though. The doubt is there in the novel, in enough detail that almost every reply, review, comment, and email I've seen either gets it, or otherwise understands the reasons for the way the Emperor refers to the primarchs as he does. Does this means he is the cuddly father figure to the Primarchs? Hell no, every description from their POV describe him as distant and aloof to them also. Does it means that he regards the Custodes as his closes companions and confidantes? We dont know but they regard them as such at least and that´s what we "hear" Ok, first off: The Emperor being distant and aloof to his sons is a matter of interpretation. Gav Thorpe and Graham McNeill wrote him in way that should make you question that at least. Second off, while I would give you Land, there is at least one instance I remember of the top of my head where the Emperor refers to Magnus by name during the conversation with Ra. If the theory about perception filter was correct, Ra should hear "Fifteenth", not Magnus, as we clearly see that he does not trust him, and in fact is so mad at him for breaking the Emperor's project that he tries to kill him in a flashback despite knowing it would do nothing. It's those little details like that, as well as the fact that every speaker we see with the Emperor, that cause the perception that ADB was going for consistent characterisation of the Emperor as an callous , with the perception filter altering little things, not the core of his thinking. That perception is then strengthened by the Ullanor conversation and implications that Emps is not above manipulating his sons and indulging them when it comes to how they see the world. It is actually one of the most foremost criticisms I have of the book: The idea that we can fit multiple interpretations of the Emperor does not find a lot of ground in the novel, when we get right to it. Except that trust isn't what determines he name you hear? Who hears it is. Do you not pay attention to what anyone says? And you missed the fact that I was refering to the conversation that Ra has with the Emperor, where he refers to Magnus by name and to Rogal by number? If there is perception filter in place based on person, then it works inconsistently. Magnus was the centre of the Emperor's plan for humanity - the person to seat on the Golden Throne. Dorn on the other hand - just another primarch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 That's referring to Magnus' Folly, a location "The forces unleashed in the wake of Magnus' misjudgement grow stronger. First a trickle, then a tide. Now,, a storm's wind, unremitting, unceasing." He refers to Magnus' Folly as a location later, and I am not using that one as an example. Here, he references his actions, not the location. In a similar way, he refers to Malcador's and Rogal's effort to defend the Imperium. Rogal is refered to as the number. This happens within the same conversation. Magnus was the centre of the Emperor's plan for humanity - the person to seat on the Golden Throne. Dorn on the other hand - just another primarch And how, exactly, is that a counter-argument to what I said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 That's referring to Magnus' Folly, a location "The forces unleashed in the wake of Magnus' misjudgement grow stronger. First a trickle, then a tide. Now,, a storm's wind, unremitting, unceasing." He refers to Magnus' Folly as a location later, and I am not using that one as an example. Here, he references his actions, not the location. In a similar way, he refers to Malcador's and Rogal's effort to defend the Imperium. Rogal is refered to as the number. This happens within the same conversation. Magnus was the centre of the Emperor's plan for humanity - the person to seat on the Golden Throne. Dorn on the other hand - just another primarch And how, exactly, is that a counter-argument to what I said? there is perception filter in place based on person, then it works inconsistently - yes it does exactly that. MoM is a lot of things - vision of the Emperor, relations with the Primarchs, Sigilite doing what he does best, battles for the sake of narrative and for the sake of battles, custodians being unhuman abberations and total dicks, a precursor of major 'event' line from W40K. Too many inconsistencies and plotholes in it. But definitely not the best novel of 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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