Phil Kelly's IG list

[Indefragable]

The GW Gemes writer that holds our fates in his hands....apparently, this is the list he uses himself:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/16/join-forces-with-the-agents-of-the-imperium/

 

 

So....what can we divine from these entrails?

 

Hidden Content

IMO, this is terrifying. Someone once said "I get the feeling that GW doesn't know how to play IG." This list confirms that, for me. Who knows what power level he is trying to go for, but man is this list weird.

 

Thoughts:

 

-Flamers and lascannons in the same units......?

-The entire thing only has a single Chimera....for a plasma CCS.  (wonder how those Melta vets can actually get in range to use their meltas.....)

-Legion of the Damned......with a Power Sword? golly gee?!?!

 

[Phubar]

Flamers in Inf Squads are for counter charges, 5pt for some gambling when emeny decide to punch you in the face.

Melta vets are carried by the valk i presume.

Just another pointnof view.

[WarriorFish]

Not sure why the Vets have a vox and nobody else :P Maybe those flamer points should be spent on that instead! One thing is for sure, he if wants revenge on Magnus he's going to have to try a different list :lol:

[slowclinic]

My first thought was that the Vets are flying in the Valkyrie too. Unless they're loaded out with sniper rifles/HWTs and camping in cover, they're going to be dropping in somewhere to try and pop something with melta. The Flamer and Lascannon combo must be for hanging back and playing defensively. It's a weird mix, but one that can be pretty effective if they're blobbed up and receiving orders. I would have thought putting the vox caster in the infantry platoons as the Vets are more than capable of taking something down with three meltas. 

 

I was watching one of Mordian Glory's tactical vids on YouTube yesterday, and it really highlighted the effectiveness of Sentinels with Plasma Cannons, so I'm quite on board with that. 

 

A combination of defensive massed infantry, infiltrators, and aggressive deep striking units pretty much covers the board. At a first glance I was confused, but at a second look I actually like this list quite a lot. Definitely doesn't follow the usual formulas for our attempt at competitive play, that's for sure.

[Indefragable]

TBH, I forgot about the Valkyrie so that makes sense with the melta Vets. Still weird they have the only Vox in the army.

 

I get the whole massed D3 wall of death thing with the flamers...it just seems like a waste of points (that could go to more Vox casters) for a wall of bodies that want to sit back and lascannon-snipe.

 

The Power Sword on the LoD makes no sense to me whatsoever. They Ignore Cover with shooting, so you'd think a plasma pistol would be a better fifteen points well spent. If you really want to deter melee, why not take a power axe? They get 3++ so initiative is less a consideration. True head scratcher. And it's not like there's a LoD model with a power sword they are trying to push.

 

I suppose I could warm up to the plasma sentinels.

[HackedDuck]

Hmm this is a weird list. That leman russ is going to drop instantly, the opponent is going to look across the board and see a chimera, a couple of sentinels and a leman russ. Meaning all of their melta/lascannons/etc is going to be concentrating on them. I also think this list hasn't got a lot of mobility, any other list is going to be so much faster than this.

I can, however, see why he put the flamers with the lascannons but it's not something I would do.

 

Maybe GW's games are much more relaxed than ours? :lol: I can imagine him playing against DE kabalite all on foot or against some other ridiculous list.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Maybe GW's games are much more relaxed than ours? :lol: I can imagine him playing against DE kabalite all on foot or against some other ridiculous list.

I really think that they are. Pretty much every lost I've seen run by GW design studio days dating back to when I bought every issue of White Dwarf during 3rd edition is that their lists look nothing like what people run at tournaments. They are usually fluffy and eclectic. I've always gotten the impression that 40k is played very differently at GW HQ than anywhere else. And that may explain some of their choices when writing rules and codices as well.

[Canadian_F_H]

Still don't get the lone vox when the no order giving unit has a vox...

 

And why give a heavy flamer to a unit that already has ignores cover...

[Itsacon]

Maybe GW's games are much more relaxed than ours? I can imagine him playing against DE kabalite all on foot or against some other ridiculous list.

I really think that they are. Pretty much every lost I've seen run by GW design studio days dating back to when I bought every issue of White Dwarf during 3rd edition is that their lists look nothing like what people run at tournaments. They are usually fluffy and eclectic. I've always gotten the impression that 40k is played very differently at GW HQ than anywhere else. And that may explain some of their choices when writing rules and codices as well.

Has anyone ever read the non-rules parts of the books? Cause GW is quite clear that THEIR intention is for people to play a story. Not play a game of brutal WAAC rules-lawyering tournament tabletop. I think it's quite logical that their lists (especially the ones they publish) represent that.

[WarriorFish]

GW's lists are not usually particularly great, even from a non-tournament/casual point of view. I think this is intentional for more than one reason. Aside from GW preferring to promote the "just go with it" approach I also think they don't want to dictate things. As much as they want us to craft our own narratives they also want us to make our own lists. Besides, can you imagine the rage if GW pumped out beardageddon lists with a new codex or something? No wonder they give it a very wide berth

[slowclinic]

I'd imagine that a WAAC power gamer at GW HQ would be frowned upon more so than anyone else. They're playing for a fun game, and rightly so. I'm lucky in that my local GW isn't overrun with power gamers, and those that play in that way tend to be against each other. There's somewhat of a system where you can go for fun & fluffy, semi-competitive, or tournament level, which is discussed ahead of the game. It also helps that there's a wonderful store manager there too.

As for this list, I still stick to what I said earlier. Aside from the strange placing of a vox caster, I like the list. I might actually try out the flamer/lascannon combo myself, to see how it works out with defensive infantry play.

[Canadian_F_H]

To me it isnt about waaC or abythibg... it's just... why take a vox one one unit when you don't have an order issuing unit equiped with one? Literally throwing points away with that...

[HackedDuck]

Maybe because they were playing WYSIWYG and that's the only model he had available? That's the only reason I can think of

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I'd imagine that a WAAC power gamer at GW HQ would be frowned upon more so than anyone else. They're playing for a fun game, and rightly so. I'm lucky in that my local GW isn't overrun with power gamers, and those that play in that way tend to be against each other. There's somewhat of a system where you can go for fun & fluffy, semi-competitive, or tournament level, which is discussed ahead of the game. It also helps that there's a wonderful store manager there too.

 

As for this list, I still stick to what I said earlier. Aside from the strange placing of a vox caster, I like the list. I might actually try out the flamer/lascannon combo myself, to see how it works out with defensive infantry play.

 

I agree entirely with the bolded. By most cherished gaming memories are from the days when I played primarily with friends in my basement, doing narrative-heavy games. When we first started entering into the tournament scene we got smoked like cheap cigars the first couple tournaments. It's definitely a different scene and I regret that I now live hundreds of kilometers from those friends and haven't found any local people interested in such. The gaming scene at the local hobby shop is very competitive and they pride themselves on how "hard" the lists are there. Don't get me wrong, they are nice guys and they're not jerks about it, but it's a very different gaming style.

 

It seems to me that the GW designers are a bit frustrated with the prevalence of "competitive" gaming and pretty sure that's a reason that they started out Age of Sigmar without points of any kind.

 

I'd like to get back to GW style gaming but tournaments are really my only chance to game since I live in a rural area now. The GW studio lists always seem like fun though.

[Trevak Dal]

I'm a well documented (and often modded...) Phil Kelly hater, I maintain he's in need of being punched in the face for the Vanilla Chaos Dex and everybody says how great and awesome Mr. Dice Tables And Charts is, but if Matt Ward had written the Chaos codex back in 6th, we wouldn't have needed to wait until this month to get legion rules, nor would we have had to have SO MANY poor supplements.

 

If :cuss Head Phil is the guy who is going to do your book...Y'all got my sympathies.

[Claws and Effect]

I get it completely.

 

It's not a competitive tournament list, it's the Midgardia 144th.

 

They are equipped with all the equipment they had left when their home world was destroyed.

[slowclinic]

With regards to AoS, they just threw WHFB out of the window as it wasn't bringing in any money. Inside sources pointed out that less than 10% of company sales were going towards the Fantasy stuff, and players weren't buying anything new/investing time and money in new stuff wasn't worth something bringing in less than 10%. IMHO, AoS is fantastic, but we're getting off topic.

 

In general, people don't play Guard in order to win things, it's for the love of the fluff, models, gameplay, and so on. I know I got into it through that. Seeing Star Ship Troopers many years ago, and then watching Fury too many times landed me in GW surrounded by tank kits.

 

Maybe the Vox Caster is simply WYSIWYG. Maybe at 1,850pts the guy has some other use for it?

[Charlo]

It's a cool list and hey, maybe some WAAC lists will be thrown off by LotD and 3 Assassins!

 

Break the Meta and forge that narrative!

[slowclinic]

It's a cool list and hey, maybe some WAAC lists will be thrown off by LotD and 3 Assassins!

 

Break the Meta and forge that narrative!

 

 

Without the Vindicate, the other three assassins are pretty much there to throw the opponent off, in my experience. Legion of the Damned are a faction I've long wanted to include in games since seeing them appear in White Dwarf many years ago. With the new book, I'll think about introducing a unit of ten with a flamer and heavy flamer, more for fluff reasons than anything. 

 

I think the Sentinels with plasma cannons will throw people off quite a bit. Especially if they're brought on strategically from reserve. They're underrated, and three will require some dedicated attention to take them off the board.

[Brother Captain Ed]

While I think it's true that the games played at GW exist in a Twilight Zone where everything is familiar but nothing is normal, I think it's also worth remembering that this list is straight up shilling C:IA.  

Therefore, everyone is simultaneously right.  

Strange...

[Shamansky]

That doesn't really contradicts with the statement that GW doesn't know how to deal with Imperial Guard.

[slowclinic]

That doesn't really contradicts with the statement that GW doesn't know how to deal with Imperial Guard.

 

Well... They did outright pour water over running a leaf blower list with such effectiveness within games using only the codex... I stand by the notion that 40k is supposed to be a fun game, although they could do a little better with balance across the armies. You could also say the same for Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, and so on.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

 

That doesn't really contradicts with the statement that GW doesn't know how to deal with Imperial Guard.

 

Well... They did outright pour water over running a leaf blower list with such effectiveness within games using only the codex... I stand by the notion that 40k is supposed to be a fun game, although they could do a little better with balance across the armies. You could also say the same for Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, and so on.

 

 

I think you're right, 40K is supposed to be a fun game ... and it is so much more enjoyable when it is taken as such. But it seems that a lot of people prefer a highly competitive game and tend to treat 40K that way. It seems like there are far far more competitive tournaments versus more casual "events" for example. Although it could just be that the guys playing for fun among friends are just a lot less vocal.

 

But there are ways to combine competitive gaming with fun and narrative. Astronomi-con does a very good job of this, for example, but they are down to one event (Toronto) per year due to lack of attendance at their Winnipeg, Vancouver, and Dallas events. It seems the main complaints are poor prizes and unbalanced scenarios, which basically means people don't like the more casual/narrative/fun approach because to me those things are competitive event things. I for one certainly do not attend Astronomi-con to win prizes, I go to play some fun games with different folk.

[Teetengee]

I think it is hard to create an event for unknown participants that isn't inherently competitive. Most people will try to build lists that win, which means creating interesting scenarios becomes much harder as you have to do some pretty weird restrictions to make it all work out well.

[Stofficus]

40k functions well in a campaign among friends who understand the tone of the event - Apocalypse used to be really good for that, in fact, and I would run monthly themed apoc games each building on the outcome of the last which would often have intentional advantages/disadvantages, and most people enjoyed them. 

 

The problem comes is that it doesn't take much to derail that - hence my use of past tence. With our monthly events, one player decided to trawl through old White Dwarfs and dig up all sorts of weird formations, and math-hammered together the most powerful apocalypse army he could and would single-handedly destroy 2-3 players worth of forces which started an arms race, with the more casual folks dropping out completely after a few goes and his complete refusal to adjust, and the rest power-gaming it to high heaven, which ended with Apocalypse no longer being played because it wasn't accomplishing anything noteworthy anymore. 

 

GW designs for the kind of game I enjoy, but doesn't do anything structurally to encourage it except for relying on people control themselves to avoid breaking the game, which at this point many armies can do accidentally. 

 

With the Guard, we have to play for fun, because the IG simply can't play in a highly competitive environment and still be the Guard - the club I used to frequent went hardcore competitive about 1.5 years ago, and one simply doesn't see IG there outside of a few one-offs in very bizarre ally/formation stacking creations. Kelly's list is clearly an attempt to show what a thematic army might look like - a counter push to the sort of things BOLS spews and what the internet tends to fawn over, but choosing the weakest Imperial army and making such an oddball list even makes certified fluff bunnies like myself scratch my head.