Phil Kelly's IG list

[Shamansky]

 

That doesn't really contradicts with the statement that GW doesn't know how to deal with Imperial Guard.

 

Well... They did outright pour water over running a leaf blower list with such effectiveness within games using only the codex... I stand by the notion that 40k is supposed to be a fun game, although they could do a little better with balance across the armies. You could also say the same for Dark Eldar, Orks, Blood Angels, and so on.

 

What i ment is the GW's trend to give armies some 'wreking ball' units with weird mechanics, give new weapons, something that wins 50% of the game just by having it (e.g. all drop troops, 1st turn charge, cheap and really useful D-str weapons that can be fit into competetive 1000-pts list, almost invulnurable units, cheap heavy 'magic', grav and frag cannons etc.). But it's hard to imagine what can be done with simple humans with ordinary guns and vehicles. They give us formations most of which are ment to rise their sales and do nothing that normally created Guard list can do better or must include so many models that it becoomes hard to transport and deploy your army and still you won't get any sufficient benefits except numbers of dudes on a table. You will always need to take something outside of the Codex to get competetive list (inquisitors, 'knights', assassins, librarians or even filthy xenos).

I may be biassed because i have a little time to play for fun with friends because of my job and have to play only with win-by-any-mean freaks on tournaments.

[WarriorFish]

Leaf blower was never a thing, just one guy that won a tournament and the Internet echo chamber did the rest. Guard have never had a top tier codex, I'm hoping GW can correct this and give us something good.

[slowclinic]

I don't necessarily mind using allies to some degree. Forgetting Militarum Tempestus as (sort of) allies, I'm more than happy to bring in Inquisitors and Assassins for fluff reasons. They offer a fair counter to some of the things I'd otherwise find tough to combat in a lot of games. I've allied in Blood Angels, but that's because I already have them and the recent formations rejuvenated some interest. Hardly game changing, but drop podding three Dreadnoughts with an assortment of frag cannons and force staves is fun!

 

In regards to what WarriorFish said, I agree. The leaf blower list wasn't some magical beast that took the 40k world by storm. I know BoLS did a really good analysis of the list and how it worked - the player definitely got lucky getting first turn in all of his games. I'm sure we've all had similar games when a first turn bombardment just wrecks face... I know I have. Also, although outdated now, there isn't much that we can't replicate with today's codex to similar effect. Granted, we've only got half the range 10/2 pie plate without having to dip into Imperial Armour.

 

I quite like our codex. I think it's well balanced itself. It's the various game killing combinations that are the problem. I'd rather stricter balance and limitations came over all of the codexes rather than try to bump us up the list by introducing the kind of thing we're often complaining about. Maybe that's just me.

[duz_]

I definitely agree Slow our codex is actually quite balanced which is nice.

Unfortunately like you said the power on all the other codex has left us behind.

Given that power creep is now a thing that appears to be staying its certainly easier for us to go up the curve than everyone else down.

[slowclinic]

Without a doubt. I'm just curious as to what we could get that would push us up said curve. I do read up on lore, but I can't think of anything that could be introduced as a new game changer for the Guard. Realistic points reduction for the Baneblade and variants to bring them in line with things like Riptides? An extra hull point on Russes? Beast Hunter shells in the codex? An Imperial Armour vehicle or something new?

 

I'm aware that the introduction of something that brings us in line suddenly means the general meta in Guard shifts and everyone has one. Then again, isn't that the case with every other army? General competitive meta fields fearless blobs, Wyverns, and allies for buffs, so I guess we already have that to some degree. 

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I personally wouldn't want some crazy new stuff introduced to Guard that is a power option ... I feel we may be at risk of losing our identity. I frankly, being the curmudgeon I am, have never been 100% onboard with veterans being a troop choice. Especially after the so-called "leafblower" list, "chimeltavets" were way too much of a thing. That doesn't feel like proper Imperial Guard. At least not standard ... I could see veterans as troops choices in special veteran formations, or as a troops choice limited as 1 per platoon the way the old armoured fist squads were.

 

I'd rather see them bring back Penal Legions and have troops choices be regular guardsmen, penal legion, and conscripts. Maybe bring back the old armoured fist squads without the need for a PCS since it seems the main point of veterans to to replace them since people aren't forced to bring 2x platoons for their troops alotment (again, I'd much rather see penal legions back instead of veterans for this option -- maybe give the penal troops the ability to take a transport -- probably a truck of some sort). Veterans should be an elite choice in my view, although I concede that with Guard the Elite, Fast, and Heavy sections are all pretty full as it is.

 

All that said, I think our codex is balanced. I think the main problem we have is the lack of really strong formations. I'd rather that GW just make everything more balanced, but the amount of nerd rage they'd receive due to "nerfing" the currenly overpowered ones would be of Biblical proportions and unfortunately power creep = sales I suppose and here I think the 40k community needs to accept a share of the blame.

[Teetengee]

I personally wouldn't want some crazy new stuff introduced to Guard that is a power option ... I feel we may be at risk of losing our identity. I frankly, being the curmudgeon I am, have never been 100% onboard with veterans being a troop choice. Especially after the so-called "leafblower" list, "chimeltavets" were way too much of a thing. That doesn't feel like proper Imperial Guard. At least not standard ... I could see veterans as troops choices in special veteran formations, or as a troops choice limited as 1 per platoon the way the old armoured fist squads were.

 

I'd rather see them bring back Penal Legions and have troops choices be regular guardsmen, penal legion, and conscripts. Maybe bring back the old armoured fist squads without the need for a PCS since it seems the main point of veterans to to replace them since people aren't forced to bring 2x platoons for their troops alotment (again, I'd much rather see penal legions back instead of veterans for this option -- maybe give the penal troops the ability to take a transport -- probably a truck of some sort). Veterans should be an elite choice in my view, although I concede that with Guard the Elite, Fast, and Heavy sections are all pretty full as it is.

 

All that said, I think our codex is balanced. I think the main problem we have is the lack of really strong formations. I'd rather that GW just make everything more balanced, but the amount of nerd rage they'd receive due to "nerfing" the currenly overpowered ones would be of Biblical proportions and unfortunately power creep = sales I suppose and here I think the 40k community needs to accept a share of the blame.

I think the best way to keep guard identity and buff them would be to let them recycle dead units in some way shape or form.

 

Also, I think vets being troops is good for keeping them obsec in the current edition, but any reasonable meta-detachment should probably treat them like an elite (a core of 3 platoons 1 vet 1 heavy weapons platoon, 1 special weapons squad type deal might be reasonable).

[HackedDuck]

Fluff wise it makes sense for vets to be troops if they are the same as normal infantry only with more experience.

 

As for the recycling troops option, the death korps already has this and I feel it would really take away from them if this was a standard rule in the guard codex. I would, however, love to see a formation similar to the the infantry company formation where units can come back on a certain dice roll.

[Teetengee]

Fluff wise it makes sense for vets to be troops if they are the same as normal infantry only with more experience.

 

As for the recycling troops option, the death korps already has this and I feel it would really take away from them if this was a standard rule in the guard codex. I would, however, love to see a formation similar to the the infantry company formation where units can come back on a certain dice roll.

Come back on certain dice rolls is fine for "recycling" as far as I am concerned. Basically I want guard to be cheaper without actually placing more bodies or rolling more dice. That is accomplished by some form of unit reuse/replacement/creation during gameplay, rather than starting on the board with everything. Getting cheaper and forcing reserves would also work, but not be as satisfying I feel. Basically, guard can't be stronger because they won't feel like guard and can't be cheaper because that will make an already unwieldy army even harder to play with.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I haven't played with Guard in a while but maybe a simple reduction in weapon costs and a recycling mechanic would be effective. Perhaps 10 point plasma guns and five point meltas would help? I would also consider recycling tanks as well, maybe on a higher roll or as part of a formation benefit.

[duz_]

Recycled tanks! Yes please

 

That would certainly make up for the hull point and vehicle damage mechanics this edition!

[Teetengee]

Perhaps this should be a separate page, but what about recycling dead infantry on 4+s, transports on 5+s and other guard units on 6+ when they die (and allow vehicles to be abandoned, autokilling them, if immobilized). They must move on from your board edge though, no outflank or deep strike. Points stay the same.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Reduced special weapon prices would work and that's the way it always used to be ... Guard paid less because they're BS3 and STR 3 ... what happened though was that Marines et al got their special weapon prices reduced to Guard prices, and Guard had their close combat weaponry increased in price to Marine prices.

[slowclinic]

I've never heard the phrase "Chimelta Vets" before, I'm going to use that As for them being moved to Elites, the codex would be seriously limited. Vets are typically in transports, which ft the meta and offer an alternative. Some kind of update to the existing Elites would be good. A drastic points reduction for Ogryns/Bullgryns and a buff to Rough Riders would be welcomed with open arms.

Recycling units was a thing? Aside from childhood ignorance towards the rules of the game many years ago, I only know the current codex. I can see that being useful, but probably limited to Platoons for what seems like a fluff reason in my mind. The MT Hellrain Brigade formation has proven popular and to the lore, so it could even be sensible to introduce that as a standard rule for Scions within reason. Maybe a dedicated MT Commissar to fit with the theme a little better? I know they don't really exist, but...

Renewable tanks would be silly without some serious restrictions, like not coming in the next turn but the turn after as some sort of ongoing delayed reserve. Even then, you'd end up with an issue similar to Undead in Fantasy back when you could start at 1,000pts and finish with the equivalent of 3,000pts.

[Teetengee]

I've never heard the phrase "Chimelta Vets" before, I'm going to use that As for them being moved to Elites, the codex would be seriously limited. Vets are typically in transports, which ft the meta and offer an alternative. Some kind of update to the existing Elites would be good. A drastic points reduction for Ogryns/Bullgryns and a buff to Rough Riders would be welcomed with open arms.

Recycling units was a thing? Aside from childhood ignorance towards the rules of the game many years ago, I only know the current codex. I can see that being useful, but probably limited to Platoons for what seems like a fluff reason in my mind. The MT Hellrain Brigade formation has proven popular and to the lore, so it could even be sensible to introduce that as a standard rule for Scions within reason. Maybe a dedicated MT Commissar to fit with the theme a little better? I know they don't really exist, but...

Renewable tanks would be silly without some serious restrictions, like not coming in the next turn but the turn after as some sort of ongoing delayed reserve. Even then, you'd end up with an issue similar to Undead in Fantasy back when you could start at 1,000pts and finish with the equivalent of 3,000pts.

It depends on how strong it is. Guard tanks are generally weak/slow enough that them having a chance to come back is not super game breaking. Additionally, recycling=/=summoning. You will never have more than you started with through recycling (unless you stack rules like the new alpha legion formations can).